G
glynb
Balladeer
Aaron Cheney said:
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
My only allie on this thread has turned against me!!
How 'bout if we all just go to Denny's for an omelet?
....or shoul that be "chicken burgers"?
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
My only allie on this thread has turned against me!!
How 'bout if we all just go to Denny's for an omelet?
....or shoul that be "chicken burgers"?
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
T
Toker41
Better Than You
The rules are as follows...
1. I am God
2. See rule #1.
hehe.
P.S. Doesn't matter which came first....
...just fry them both up!!
P.P.S. Whatever happened to LocusLarsen?? Guy gave me a raft of sh*t, and then dropped off the face of the BBS world. Guess he didn't know about rule #1. hehe.
1. I am God
2. See rule #1.
hehe.
P.S. Doesn't matter which came first....
...just fry them both up!!
P.P.S. Whatever happened to LocusLarsen?? Guy gave me a raft of sh*t, and then dropped off the face of the BBS world. Guess he didn't know about rule #1. hehe.
C
CyanJaguar
New member
very interesting thread.
How to get a no. 1 hit the easy way:
http://www.instrumentality.com/themanual2.html#beginning
How to get a no. 1 hit the easy way:
http://www.instrumentality.com/themanual2.html#beginning
G
glynb
Balladeer
Good link. Even though it was written in the '80s it still ringsd true today. One thing they don't tell you though, is once you've put together your sure-fire number 1 after following all the 'rules' (heh, heh) how you get a foot in the door to get someone in the record industry to listen to it and back you!
T
Toker41
Better Than You
Glynb,
In the end you have to grab your ankles.
In the end you have to grab your ankles.
C
CyanJaguar
New member
Toker41 said:
most people end up having to because they dont have enough means or passion or information to do otherwise.
First, read "this business of music"
second, write a smash hit
third, sell your house and car and make that deal happen
T
Toker41
Better Than You
Man, some people just don't get it. Some of the best bands and songs ever you will never hear of. You can preach all you want about you have to have a hit (which isn't at all true), or you have to make the right connections, or you have to try hard enough...it's all bullshit! The fact is it all boils down to being in the right place at the right time with the right product. Just wondering, with everybody giving advise on "how to get a deal" or whatever, how many have really done it? Real deals, not some small time crap that any joe can get. I had managers and agents. I met A&R reps that all talked a good game. I even had a meeting with Gene Simmons (who, as much as I am a big, big, Kiss fan, is an asswipe....the guy never really did do anything for Van Halen). What paid off was some nobody I gave a tape to that I worked with. Didn't really even know the person well, was just passing out tapes at work and they asked for one. A week later my phone rings....Geffen records calling....Turned out the person at work that I gave the tape to had a sister that was an A&R rep there. Go figure. She asked for more material...we sent it...they liked it. Came to see us play....twice. Was telling us they liked that we DID NOT have a manager (just fired him a month before). Told us they were very interested. Then Nirvana played the MTV awards....Two months later we were told they changed thier minds and were only signing alternative acts. The 80's really were over.
Anyway, dont' get me wrong...bust your ass and do ANYTHING that will get your stuff heard....but remember it's all in the draw of the cards. Most of the acts you like, got a lucky break.
Anyway, dont' get me wrong...bust your ass and do ANYTHING that will get your stuff heard....but remember it's all in the draw of the cards. Most of the acts you like, got a lucky break.
G
glynb
Balladeer
Although I haven't had the 'near miss' experience Toker41 had I do agree with him about the need for a lucky break.
I think life's like that in most apsects - if you think about how you first met someone for example, often there's a bit of luck invovled - ie you both decided to go to the same bar on the same night at the same time, etc.
Music biz is no different. of course you can make opportunities fro that lucky break to happen. Toker gave out tapes to friends, he made the effort and it paid off, he was lucky in that someone knew someone who knew someone in Geffen records..that was the lucky break.
I don't care how tallented any artist you can name is, if they are honest and look back at their career they will admit it may have all ended differently if they didn't have a moment of good fortune.
So you can follow the rules and write your perfect 'melody', or if you prefer you've been an 'inspired artist' and write your perfect melody, but it will never be a GREAT melody unless millions of people grow to love and recognise it and sing it and hum it, and it won't ever get to that stage without... a lucky break!
Don't get down hearted though, maybe you great works will be discovered and appreciated after your demise (like lots of great composers!)
I think life's like that in most apsects - if you think about how you first met someone for example, often there's a bit of luck invovled - ie you both decided to go to the same bar on the same night at the same time, etc.
Music biz is no different. of course you can make opportunities fro that lucky break to happen. Toker gave out tapes to friends, he made the effort and it paid off, he was lucky in that someone knew someone who knew someone in Geffen records..that was the lucky break.
I don't care how tallented any artist you can name is, if they are honest and look back at their career they will admit it may have all ended differently if they didn't have a moment of good fortune.
So you can follow the rules and write your perfect 'melody', or if you prefer you've been an 'inspired artist' and write your perfect melody, but it will never be a GREAT melody unless millions of people grow to love and recognise it and sing it and hum it, and it won't ever get to that stage without... a lucky break!
Don't get down hearted though, maybe you great works will be discovered and appreciated after your demise (like lots of great composers!)
C
CyanJaguar
New member
toker,
I agree with you that there luck invloved, just like positioning is involved( I can be writing the best hits in a basement in CHina and nobody will ever hear them, talk less of sign me.
I still insist that talent plays a great part. When a company sees a good artist they have to factor in other components before deciding to bet on him. When they see a great act however they have no choice but to sign him because:
1. The record company's bottom line is profit and they know they can make money from this artist and
2. They want to keep this act out of the hands of the other record companies.
I still say that many people dont have the passion it takes to succeed. Many people dont have the passion to go "all or nothing". How many artists will really sell their house and car and quit their day job just to have enough time and money to REALLY sell the record comany and make a deal happen? lenny kravitz left everything behind and lived in a van following trying to make a deal happen.
I agree with you that there luck invloved, just like positioning is involved( I can be writing the best hits in a basement in CHina and nobody will ever hear them, talk less of sign me.
I still insist that talent plays a great part. When a company sees a good artist they have to factor in other components before deciding to bet on him. When they see a great act however they have no choice but to sign him because:
1. The record company's bottom line is profit and they know they can make money from this artist and
2. They want to keep this act out of the hands of the other record companies.
I still say that many people dont have the passion it takes to succeed. Many people dont have the passion to go "all or nothing". How many artists will really sell their house and car and quit their day job just to have enough time and money to REALLY sell the record comany and make a deal happen? lenny kravitz left everything behind and lived in a van following trying to make a deal happen.
T
Toker41
Better Than You
Buddy, you just have not spent enough time on the local scene. I knew (know) many, many, many truely talented people that have nothing now (some not even a place to sleep for the night), because of what they sacrificed for a dream that never got reached years ago. It's true, you have to have the drive, but without that lucky break, that one moment when all the quarks in the universe are in precisely the right spot, when time has lined every little detail up for years to get people in the exact spot at that perfect moment....
....no deal.
Thing is, you never really know where that break is gonna come from. So you need to believe that every second is an opportunity. No matter how small a chance something may seem to have of helping you along (like giving a tape of you metal band to a woman at work that was in her 40's and a born again christian....thought for sure it was going right in the trash before she ever listened to it.)....it's still a chance.
As far as having to have a great song and all the bullsh*t....
...lets talk about Britney Spears (does not write her own), Otown (does not write own), Nsuck....ah...Nsync (does not write own), none of those people had any material at all and got a deal. They all got a lucky break being in the right place at the right time. But then again, they are entertainers...not artist.
Then there are truely great artist, with truely great debut albums that don't get backed by the company so you never hear them.
....no deal.
Thing is, you never really know where that break is gonna come from. So you need to believe that every second is an opportunity. No matter how small a chance something may seem to have of helping you along (like giving a tape of you metal band to a woman at work that was in her 40's and a born again christian....thought for sure it was going right in the trash before she ever listened to it.)....it's still a chance.
As far as having to have a great song and all the bullsh*t....
...lets talk about Britney Spears (does not write her own), Otown (does not write own), Nsuck....ah...Nsync (does not write own), none of those people had any material at all and got a deal. They all got a lucky break being in the right place at the right time. But then again, they are entertainers...not artist.
Then there are truely great artist, with truely great debut albums that don't get backed by the company so you never hear them.
G
glynb
Balladeer
"I still say that many people dont have the passion it takes to succeed. Many people dont have the passion to go "all or nothing". How many artists will really sell their house and car and quit their day job just to have enough time and money to REALLY sell the record comany and make a deal happen? lenny kravitz left everything behind and lived in a van following trying to make a deal happen."
You are probably right that people DO need to be 100% committed and focused I'm sure, and yes some people will not have been dedicated enough therefore they didn't make it. Like sometimes you have to choose between your partener and your career, its crunch time, what do you choose? Those who go on to be 'stars' would always choose their career.
However, for every Lenny Kravitz who gambbled everything on making it and did, how do you know there aren't 1,000 Kravitzs who gambled everything, and failed? Just because you are totaly ruthlessly commeitted still doesn't guarantee success...without that little twist of fate, right place, right time... and you can't MAKE that happen.
So what should you do? Simple. You make sure you have an isurance policy. You get your college education first for example. graduate at 21 and persue your dream full time. You've then something in your back pocket to fall back on when you hit 35 and realise a career in the music biz isn't gonna happen.
You are probably right that people DO need to be 100% committed and focused I'm sure, and yes some people will not have been dedicated enough therefore they didn't make it. Like sometimes you have to choose between your partener and your career, its crunch time, what do you choose? Those who go on to be 'stars' would always choose their career.
However, for every Lenny Kravitz who gambbled everything on making it and did, how do you know there aren't 1,000 Kravitzs who gambled everything, and failed? Just because you are totaly ruthlessly commeitted still doesn't guarantee success...without that little twist of fate, right place, right time... and you can't MAKE that happen.
So what should you do? Simple. You make sure you have an isurance policy. You get your college education first for example. graduate at 21 and persue your dream full time. You've then something in your back pocket to fall back on when you hit 35 and realise a career in the music biz isn't gonna happen.
T
Toker41
Better Than You
35? Damn, I knew I was too old when I hit 27.
B
brando0
New member
i read and heard all that you have written...... but no one has mentioned something i based my songwriting on for the last 17 years......FORMULA!!!!! i think that there are different formulas that contain different rules but to me it all comes down to formula, i don't know music like some or most of you do....i go by ear yes i am aware of what chord i am playing but certainly not all of the other stuff so for me the formula has been the way to go. yes i do believe that a melody should be like a wave.... it's gotta get you riding, taking you up and gently bringing you down or as you prefer for that matter but it's gotta be flowing and it needs to give you conclusion at the end, not the end of a song but the end of the melody, cuz we can go up a tone at the end fo the song so on and so forth.
also a great songwriter of the seventies that wrote for Earth wind and fire, the Ojays and people of that caliber once told me" when you get to write a song that while it's playing you can play and hold the same note for the duration of the entire tune then...you have a hit song". now this holds true for a lot if not most pop tunes. then again it's formula.
Brando
also a great songwriter of the seventies that wrote for Earth wind and fire, the Ojays and people of that caliber once told me" when you get to write a song that while it's playing you can play and hold the same note for the duration of the entire tune then...you have a hit song". now this holds true for a lot if not most pop tunes. then again it's formula.
Brando
badgas
New member
Good post Brando.
I was at another songwriting site a while ago and they were discussing formulas.
I can't recall one of them right now.
But it was really a good thread.
Possibly someone should start a formula thread. Hmm? Wha'cha say Brando?
I'm pretty damn sure you've got more to comment on about that. In the mean time, I'll see if I can find that thread I mentioned. I think it was at Muse's.
I was at another songwriting site a while ago and they were discussing formulas.
I can't recall one of them right now.
But it was really a good thread.
Possibly someone should start a formula thread. Hmm? Wha'cha say Brando?
I'm pretty damn sure you've got more to comment on about that. In the mean time, I'll see if I can find that thread I mentioned. I think it was at Muse's.
B
brando0
New member
you 've got me going......! that's a good idea....!!!!
Formula!!!! i will star one ritgh now!!!
now as far as the other posts on this thread about making it.... it is down to luck but not luck as most intend it..... is
L.U.C.K = Labor Under Correct Knowledge, and yes some luck as well but my way of l.u.c.k. is based on what you know and mostly WHO you know!, especially nowdays that the music biz is going down the tubes, now record companies don't have to spend their money developing and artist...these days they make money doing that!!!! look at American Idol!!!! cuz that's exacly what it is...... at the end of it the rec execs have a bunch of solidly trained performers who already enjoy poularity!!!!! for them it doesn't get any better than that!!!
to make it there are a lot of factors that go into it! you may want it so much you'll sell you momma to get it! but if you lack a "support system" and by that i mean a group of people that are behind you to take care of things you not only can't take care of, cuz you're busy improving your craft, but things that you SHOULDN'T have to deal with cuz they interfere with your job of writer, performer and so on then it will be extremely hard to succeed; when you have to start wondering about how to take pictures, arrange for meetings, book gigs and hassle with the record cos. then you will only grow frustrated and at that point your "artistic side" will suffer cuz of it!!! ultimately you should try to go for it as soon as you possibly can in life cuz it helps not having to go to work to pay bills!!!! otherwise you can become the weekend singer....cuz that will be the only time you actually have time to do it........and after a while you will realise that you also wanna have some R&R and the situation will grow increasingly frustrating.
do i speak from experience? YOU DAMN RIGHT I DO!!!!!
PEACE
Brando
Formula!!!! i will star one ritgh now!!!
now as far as the other posts on this thread about making it.... it is down to luck but not luck as most intend it..... is
L.U.C.K = Labor Under Correct Knowledge, and yes some luck as well but my way of l.u.c.k. is based on what you know and mostly WHO you know!, especially nowdays that the music biz is going down the tubes, now record companies don't have to spend their money developing and artist...these days they make money doing that!!!! look at American Idol!!!! cuz that's exacly what it is...... at the end of it the rec execs have a bunch of solidly trained performers who already enjoy poularity!!!!! for them it doesn't get any better than that!!!
to make it there are a lot of factors that go into it! you may want it so much you'll sell you momma to get it! but if you lack a "support system" and by that i mean a group of people that are behind you to take care of things you not only can't take care of, cuz you're busy improving your craft, but things that you SHOULDN'T have to deal with cuz they interfere with your job of writer, performer and so on then it will be extremely hard to succeed; when you have to start wondering about how to take pictures, arrange for meetings, book gigs and hassle with the record cos. then you will only grow frustrated and at that point your "artistic side" will suffer cuz of it!!! ultimately you should try to go for it as soon as you possibly can in life cuz it helps not having to go to work to pay bills!!!! otherwise you can become the weekend singer....cuz that will be the only time you actually have time to do it........and after a while you will realise that you also wanna have some R&R and the situation will grow increasingly frustrating.
do i speak from experience? YOU DAMN RIGHT I DO!!!!!
PEACE
Brando
G
glynb
Balladeer
I don't have too much of a problem with the Pop Idol type of manufacturing of a pop star. I think that has always gone on to some extent (Monkees in the 60s for example). That was a part of the business. Another part was going out there and looking for the unusual, the different, the original and taking a chance on it.
What worries me is where are the new good serious artists are suppose to break through if the music biz won't/can't invest in them.
You know when I watched the auditions to pop Idol (UK version) I said to my wife imagine a young Bob Dylan or John Lennon or even a David Bowie wandering in there....
"Now boy show us how well you can dance and sing, and how do you look with your shirt off!!!"
They wouldn't have got past the door - not pretty enough! Of course they probably wouldn't have entered for such a thing in the first place, but my serious point is if the business only goes for artists of that type (I class Justin Timberlake, Britany Spears, and so on as THAT kind of artist) as a safe bet, then where are the real innovators and Artists (capital A) to gain exposure in future?
On the subject of L.U.C.K. & working hard in order to impress the right people, yes of course, but you have to know the right people in the first place. That can come down to a chance meeting for example or a person happening to see your demo on a desk on a particular day, etc. You CAN raise your profile but you can't organise a lucky break.
What really winds me up is when those who have made it say something like 'Real talent will always shine through' as if it was some kind of destiny that they made it and not a lucky break along the way. Grrrr!!!
What worries me is where are the new good serious artists are suppose to break through if the music biz won't/can't invest in them.
You know when I watched the auditions to pop Idol (UK version) I said to my wife imagine a young Bob Dylan or John Lennon or even a David Bowie wandering in there....
"Now boy show us how well you can dance and sing, and how do you look with your shirt off!!!"
They wouldn't have got past the door - not pretty enough! Of course they probably wouldn't have entered for such a thing in the first place, but my serious point is if the business only goes for artists of that type (I class Justin Timberlake, Britany Spears, and so on as THAT kind of artist) as a safe bet, then where are the real innovators and Artists (capital A) to gain exposure in future?
On the subject of L.U.C.K. & working hard in order to impress the right people, yes of course, but you have to know the right people in the first place. That can come down to a chance meeting for example or a person happening to see your demo on a desk on a particular day, etc. You CAN raise your profile but you can't organise a lucky break.
What really winds me up is when those who have made it say something like 'Real talent will always shine through' as if it was some kind of destiny that they made it and not a lucky break along the way. Grrrr!!!
B
brando0
New member
Badgas sorry i owe you an apology ........ i din't remember that it was you that egged me on to start the formula thread...i have terrible memory!!!!!
peace
Brando
peace
Brando
B
brando0
New member
Labor Under Correct Knowledge...... that meant that yes you have to work at it but if you don't know the right people you could be the second coming of Jesus you are not! will not go anywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"real talent will shine through....." i agree that's a bunch of CRAP!!!!!!!!!
in regard to Bob dylan and D.Bowie i think that it was a different era....music was still being recorded on 2inch tape....i mean so much has changed since then..... the business is now in a major decline and i think that it should be given the crap it issues.
brando
"real talent will shine through....." i agree that's a bunch of CRAP!!!!!!!!!
in regard to Bob dylan and D.Bowie i think that it was a different era....music was still being recorded on 2inch tape....i mean so much has changed since then..... the business is now in a major decline and i think that it should be given the crap it issues.
brando
T
Toker41
Better Than You
Let us not forget that the Beetles were the first "N-sync". Yes they had amazing talant, but Pete Best was a far better drummer than Ringo. The switch was made after they were offered the deal because Pete didn't fit the image.