Do i NEED to mic an amp?

[Lt. Bob]

Well...Here's the big "gottcha" with that... Greg can really play guitar. It doesn't matter all that much what he's playing through. It's gonna' sound pretty good.

well ....... gerg plays decently ......... I'm not sure he gets a great sound because he's a great guitar player but he is very good at what he does play.

But my point is more that he has good ears, a good sense of what he wants to get for a sound and so he can dial it in whether he uses an amp or not.
And so you can't really hear the difference because he knows what he wants and how to tweak things to get it.

He doesn't get caught up in things like "I don't like how this sim feels in my playing."
He just tweaks until the sound matches what he wants to hear.

However, when he does use an amp he has a good one ....... so that's why I'm gonna come down on his side on this. A sim is gonna be easier for inexperienced players/recordists to tweak until they sound good. And they typically get a decent sim for less than a good amp so they get it sooner. A good sim is definitely better than a so-so amp.

But let's say you give a newb my Mark V. Absolutely great amp ...... super tweakable ..... records well.
Shoot ......a newb might spend a week just trying to get the amp to sound right before even sticking a mic in front of it whereas with a sim they can just call up some "stadium guitar" sound or something.

It's easy to forget that newbs are in a steep learning curve and any shortcuts you give them are gonna get them to making decent recordings much quicker which leads to having more fun with it which leads to getting better which leads to eventually growing into micing amps instead sometimes.

So what I'm saying is ....... gerg is our leader!

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah we can all agree that Greg is indeed pretty fucking spectacular!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

But let's say you give a newb my Mark V. Absolutely great amp ...... super tweakable ..... records well.
Shoot ......a newb might spend a week just trying to get the amp to sound right before even sticking a mic in front of it whereas with a sim they can just call up some "stadium guitar" sound or something.

We all know the cliche about learning to walk before learning to run... This sounds more like trying to run before learning to crawl.

...Should you be trying to record a guitar tone before you know how to make a guitar tone?


I'm not suggesting that anybody has to suffer before being "worthy" of moving on. But I see it all the time these days. People take shortcuts in the beginning and jump really close to "good". Then after their ears develop, they notice something off and bang their heads on a wall looking for it on the mix end when the real trouble is they never learned to create and identify the exact right recording sounds. The whole thing seems like it wastes more time on the back end than was saved on the front end.

But I think my main problem is unrelated to all of that. Sims, samples, convolution processing in general... I think it is causing horrible stagnation. By definition, you can't simulate something that doesn't exist already. So where are we right now?

The 70's had that dry crunch, the 80's had that drenched sparkle, the 90's had that filthy grunge, then the late 90's gave birth to that nu-metal square wave... and it's been stuck in neutral since.

 

[Greg_L]

We all know the cliche about learning to walk before learning to run... This sounds more like trying to run before learning to crawl.

...Should you be trying to record a guitar tone before you know how to make a guitar tone?


I'm not suggesting that anybody has to suffer before being "worthy" of moving on. But I see it all the time these days. People take shortcuts in the beginning and jump really close to "good". Then after their ears develop, they notice something off and bang their heads on a wall looking for it on the mix end when the real trouble is they never learned to create and identify the exact right recording sounds. The whole thing seems like it wastes more time on the back end than was saved on the front end.

But I think my main problem is unrelated to all of that. Sims, samples, convolution processing in general... I think it is causing horrible stagnation. By definition, you can't simulate something that doesn't exist already. So where are we right now?

The 70's had that dry crunch, the 80's had that drenched sparkle, the 90's had that filthy grunge, then the late 90's gave birth to that nu-metal square wave... and it's been stuck in neutral since.

Maybe you should just not worry about that nonsense and go record something.

 

[miroslav]

But let's say you give a newb my Mark V. Absolutely great amp ...... super tweakable ..... records well.
Shoot ......a newb might spend a week just trying to get the amp to sound right before even sticking a mic in front of it whereas with a sim they can just call up some "stadium guitar" sound or something.

Yeah...but just think how much more fun it would be spending a week with a Mark V, dialing in the amp, learning what it can do, learning where/what/how to use a mic....

...VS just calling up a pre-programmed "stadium guitar" algorithm.

 

[guitarplayr82]

Interesting thread. I have a modeling preamp for the bass and was going to run it through a power amp into a speaker, but might try running the line out to the interface.

For git, my love is an LP played through a Marshall. My LP may be an Epi, and the Marshall a micro stack, but still has the sound I'm after for clean or distorted.

Is this "micro stack" one of those 5 inch tall ones or is it the full 36 inch one?

 

[guitarplayr82]

i was wondering about the feedback thing. i got some good, no, scratch that--INTERESTING feedback using a DI amp sim (behringer GDI21) and my monitor speakers. not the kind you'd hear out of a Marshall stack or what the hell ever, but kinda nifty.

(i also wonder if you could have a separate track of pre-recorded feedback, with a compressor on it side-chained to the main guitar track--so ducking the feedback whenever the git was playing, then feedback when it stops. that might be fun to try. might not sound like it was coming from the guitar itself though...hmmmm....)

Hmm... some interesting ideas there. I've gotten some pretty cool feedback out of my monitors as well.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah...but just think how much more fun it would be spending a week with a Mark V, dialing in the amp, learning what it can do, learning where/what/how to use a mic....

...VS just calling up a pre-programmed "stadium guitar" algorithm.

That's the difference. That shit aint fun for some people. Making music is though. Some people just want to make music, and some want to pretend to be engineers. There's nothing wrong with doing either, or both, and there's nothing wrong with sims and/or amps, unless you're a douchey snob.

And FTR, the presets in any sim suck ass, just like with pretty much any plug-in. Presets are a joke. You gotta custom tweak that shit.

 

[kcearl]

Do not record a guitar using an amp sim or modeler...and do not record it in an untreated room...and while you are at it do not mix it with monitors costing less that $1000 and not angled 60 degrees one monitor space from the wall at the small end of rectangular treated room, and dont be using foam for that treatment or headphones to do any of the mixing..

in fact do not be recording anything, mixing anything, and do not be mentioning mastering..no..do not..Im warning you.. stop!

or just go ahead...its fine, and its fun..and if you have a decent set of ears you'll get better results from an amp sim/modeler than someone who doesnt have good ears but has


a mic'd amp, in a treated room, with $1000 monitors spaced 60 degrees one monitor space from the short wall in a rectangle treated room, not foam mind and never...I repeat never mixes anything on headphones at any time ever

did someone mention mastering...its mixing dammit!!

 

[kcearl]

FTR Im a pretty terrible guitar player..and I did my last song through a v amp pro I bought of someone here, with a $200 washburn...It sounds pretty damned good to me and exactly what I was looking for...took all of an afternoon to get the sounds right and record them..in my untreated room etc etc etc

 

[Greg_L]

FTR Im a pretty terrible guitar player..and I did my last song through a v amp pro I bought of someone here, with a $200 washburn...It sounds pretty damned good to me and exactly what I was looking for...took all of an afternoon to get the sounds right and record them..in my untreated room etc etc etc

You are gonna burn in hell like a motherfucking nazi pedophile.

You can't possibly record in an untreated room!

 

[kcearl]

oh no.....<worried>....I meant treated!!!

 

[Dogbreath]

racist

 

[DrewPeterson7]

In a nutshell, the sim doesn't take into account even a fraction of the endless mic, mic position, amp position, crap in the room near the amp, etc options that one can do in the real world. Want the cabinet on the second floor and the mic in the basement? Better use the real thing.

This is ultimately undeniably true - you have WAY more control over the source signal using an amp and a mic than you do with a simulator, and it's far more flexible.

It's just that there's also a whole bunch of people who don't give a fuck, don't want to spend all the time tweaking a mic a few mm at a time until it sounds perfect, and just want to plug in and get a good sound right away. They're valid approaches that happen to be at two radically different ends of the convenience-flexibility spectrum.

 

[kcearl]

This is ultimately undeniably true - you have WAY more control over the source signal using an amp and a mic than you do with a simulator, and it's far more flexible.

It's just that there's also a whole bunch of people who don't give a fuck, don't want to spend all the time tweaking a mic a few mm at a time until it sounds perfect, and just want to plug in and get a good sound right away. They're valid approaches that happen to be at two radically different ends of the convenience-flexibility spectrum.

lol

yeah its a whole bunch of people not giving a fuck..that's what it is...nothing to do with accessibility and/or environment


let alone the fact you do not get a good sound out of an amp sim/modeller with a preset...it takes just as much tweaking

No i say these folks who just stick a mic in front of an amp are the lazy instant gratification fucks...I mean do you know how much tweaking it takes to get a good sound out of Guitar Rig 6??

as for far more flexible? yeah because my Vox 30 can turn into a Marshall stack by turning the gain knob...aye right

 

[Greg_L]

This is ultimately undeniably true - you have WAY more control over the source signal using an amp and a mic than you do with a simulator, and it's far more flexible.
.

You have more control with an actual mic only in the sense that you can put an actual mic in dumb positions that no one would probably use anyway. If you want the sound of a cab in a basement and the mic 2 blocks away, then no, you can't do that with a sim. You could probably get it close though. The other 99.999999999999999994% of the time you're gonna have more options with the sim...unless of course you have 40 heads and cabs laying around and as many mics - and who doesn't, right?

 

[DrewPeterson7]

lol

yeah its a whole bunch of people not giving a fuck..that's what it is...nothing to do with accessibility and/or environment


let alone the fact you do not get a good sound out of an amp sim/modeller with a preset...it takes just as much tweaking

No i say these folks who just stick a mic in front of an amp are the lazy instant gratification fucks...I mean do you know how much tweaking it takes to get a good sound out of Guitar Rig 6??

as for far more flexible? yeah because my Vox 30 can turn into a Marshall stack by turning the gain knob...aye right

Ok, maybe I could have put that more tactfully.

You know what I mean, though. There IS a difference between a great amp properly mic'd and recorded (and, if you're close-micing, the room really isn't a huge factor) and an amp sim. It's one that will be lost on most of the listening public, however, and because it takes a lot more work to get that improvement in tone and comes at the cost of a lot less flexibility, then for a lot of people it's simply not worth the hassle. It's less a question of being lazy than of picking your battles.

For me, I have a kickass amp that sounds good at the levels I can safely record it in my apartment, a couple suitable mics to choose between, and enough patience - I'd rather mic up than buy a modeler or use a VST sim. But at the same time I also understand their appeal.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

The other 99.999999999999999994% of the time you're gonna have more options with the sim...unless of course you have 40 heads and cabs laying around and as many mics - and who doesn't, right?

This actually is one of my biggest pet peeves with the whole modeling movement. Line6 has done a spectacular job of creating a need that didn't exist before they entered the market - having a whole fleet of different tones available to record with.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, but I'm of the school of thought that a band/album should have a cohesive "sound," and part of that cohesiveness is a consistent guitar sound. All I want from an amp is a great clean sound I like, a great rhythm sound I like, and a great lead sound I like. When recording, I don't find myself thinking, "Ok, I want the sound of a JCM2000 hard left and a HiWatt hard right for this track, but on THIS song I want a 5150 left and a Powerball right. This song should have a Mark-IV lead sound, but this one would be better with the sound of a JCM800." Rather, I want the sound of the guitars to be part of the thing that makes the album sound unified - I'll switch between my Strat and my UV for the different response when tracking leads, but I end up running them through very similar settings. On the rhythm side, some songs on this album I'm working with have less gain than others, but it still sounds like the same amp. I like that.

These days, everyone buying an amp wants it to be a jack of all trades. I'd rather have an amp that does three things exactly to my taste. Hell, in a pinch, I'd settle for a great clean and a great distortion sound with a footswitchable volume boost.

I remember the most boring live show I've ever seen very well - I was at a club somewhere that had booked a modern rock/top-40 cover band. Three different guys - they'd take turns singing based on who sounded the most like the original singer, and their guitarist played through a Line6 Vetta and dialed up a new patch bank for each song trying to exactly replicate the recorded sounds. You could have replaced them with a CD player and no one would have noticed. To me, that's everything that's wrong with music today.

 

[nave]

Do i NEED to mic an amp?

No. /thread.

 

[Greg_L]

This actually is one of my biggest pet peeves with the whole modeling movement. Line6 has done a spectacular job of creating a need that didn't exist before they entered the market - having a whole fleet of different tones available to record with.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, but I'm of the school of thought that a band/album should have a cohesive "sound," and part of that cohesiveness is a consistent guitar sound. All I want from an amp is a great clean sound I like, a great rhythm sound I like, and a great lead sound I like. When recording, I don't find myself thinking, "Ok, I want the sound of a JCM2000 hard left and a HiWatt hard right for this track, but on THIS song I want a 5150 left and a Powerball right. This song should have a Mark-IV lead sound, but this one would be better with the sound of a JCM800." Rather, I want the sound of the guitars to be part of the thing that makes the album sound unified - I'll switch between my Strat and my UV for the different response when tracking leads, but I end up running them through very similar settings. On the rhythm side, some songs on this album I'm working with have less gain than others, but it still sounds like the same amp. I like that.

These days, everyone buying an amp wants it to be a jack of all trades. I'd rather have an amp that does three things exactly to my taste. Hell, in a pinch, I'd settle for a great clean and a great distortion sound with a footswitchable volume boost.

I remember the most boring live show I've ever seen very well - I was at a club somewhere that had booked a modern rock/top-40 cover band. Three different guys - they'd take turns singing based on who sounded the most like the original singer, and their guitarist played through a Line6 Vetta and dialed up a new patch bank for each song trying to exactly replicate the recorded sounds. You could have replaced them with a CD player and no one would have noticed. To me, that's everything that's wrong with music today.

I totally agree. I use one guitar tone for pretty much everything - the tired but awesome Gibson/Marshall sound. I have access to 3 badass 100w tube rigs, or Guitar Rig. I use em all. I bet no one can tell the difference. I also totally agree with the idea of an album being cohesive. I'm a total nazi about my drums. They have to sound the same from song to song because I write songs in batches with the intent of making an album out of them. I don't change anything until I get around 12 songs in the bag. I hate albums where it's obvious that the songs were recorded at different times in different studios with maybe even different people.

Still, you can't be that way and then complain about a lack of flexibility with sims. You just admitted to not being flexible at all. Having a jillion options is the very definition of flexibility. I'm not talking about some handheld mini POD or a piece of shit Line 6. I'm talking high end softwares like Guitar Rig or Revalver. If some dude wants a bunch of different amp sounds from song to song, or if he's hunting down his own signature sound, he can do it and sound great with a good sim and not be stuck with one expensive amp and an expensive pile of crappy tone sucking pedals.