Do I need Preamps on high SPL source?

[KevinDrummer]

Hello,

I'm tweaking and (hopefully) improving my home studio. I don't need to do a lot of simultaneous multitracking, but I do on drums.

I've got cakewalk, some decent dynamic drum close mics, some good condensor overheads , and I'm fairly happy with the raw input sound when I run the close mics through my Samson PA mixer into a channel of my Behringer UB802 mixer, and my overheads panned left and right directly into the 2 pre's of my Behringer.

However, I do want to use different EQ settings, compression and reverb settings for the different elements of the drums track. I am about to buy the delta1010 card so I can do simultaneous multitrack. My question is: with the high SPL of the drums, can I get away with a simple "splitter cable" that breaks out the close mics into the 6 R/L RCA inputs of the 1010? Are preamps needed with the high SPLs? I am just a hobbyist and budget is a big concern. I humbly ask your help for a decent but inexpensive signal path into the delta1010. Thanks!

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

All mics, regardless of type, need preamps...

 

[Innovations]

To illuminate what Bruce said, the output from a microphone, when it was recording at a a very high SPL, is still lower than the line level that your sound card is expecting.

 

[KevinDrummer]

OK, I just did a test - hooking up one of my close mics (with a XLR to 1/4" transformer adapter) into one of my Behringer's inputs without the pre. It sounded pretty good, so what's the problem? With the close mics I usually end up turning the pre's on my Samson almost all the way down anyway, because the SPLs are way high.. I know a pre should be there for a "pro" application, but it looks like I'm getting a good signal. So.....???????

 

[Armistice]

Presume you're talking a Behringer mixer? You're using the mixer's internal preamps. The question is, do you like the sound you're getting? If not, you might want to look at an external preamp with better quality.

Like Blue Bear said...

 

[crazydoc]

...can I get away with a simple "splitter cable" that breaks out the close mics into the 6 R/L RCA inputs of the 1010? ...

Plug one of the mics directly into the line input of your current soundcard (with appropriate adapters). That's the type of signal you'll get. You'll be able to hear what the problem is (especially with a dynamic mic.)

 

[Farview]

Why were you going through two mixers? The mic preamps in the behringer would do just fine. (as you found out with your little experiment) You never needed the Samson.

 

[mixsit]

Actually you can. I have a pair of QTC-1's as kit mics that go > phantom remote box > passive splitters; transformer side to monitor mixer, pure side goes to the A/D. With a hard hitter, I still may have to use an in-line mic level pad to toss voltage. It's also a decent impedance match too as line-in is fairly high generally. And some A/D's also have sensitivity to play with that might help you get in the ballpark.
This may be a bit of an exception, being fairly hot mics, but not exceptional with condensers on loud sources apparently.
Never tried it with dynamics but the giveaway would be 'pads in' and still too much level.
Wayne

 

[KevinDrummer]

Why were you going through two mixers? The mic preamps in the behringer would do just fine. (as you found out with your little experiment) You never needed the Samson.

The reason my signal chain includes the Samson is because my Behringer is a UB802 with only two pre's and 2 other pairs of line inputs. I plug my condensor overheads into the Behringer, and run my 6 close mics through the Samson's pre's, and then out from the "monitor out" into one of mono line in's on the Behringer (The Samson is not a stereo rig). The Behringer then brings these 3 consolidated inputs out into the single line in on my PC. This will all change with the Delta1010 card. My plan (based on responses to my question) is to continue to use the Behringer for the overheads (into one channel only on the 1010 since they are panned hard left and right anyway), and run the close mics into a XLR to 1/4" transformer, then the 1/4" into a L/R RCA splitter into the Delta1010.

 

[KevinDrummer]

OK- let me ask this....

If I get a usable signal with no pre, what will a pre do for me? And why can I pick up a Nady 8 channel pre for less than a hundred bucks, and almost everything else out there is, like, over 2 grand???? What do they put in those things, platinum circuits?

 

[crazydoc]

OK- let me ask this....

If I get a usable signal with no pre, what will a pre do for me? And why can I pick up a Nady 8 channel pre for less than a hundred bucks, and almost everything else out there is, like, over 2 grand???? What do they put in those things, platinum circuits?

You've got to listen to the differences - then you'll know. Can you walk across the country? Sure. Ride a bike, drive a car, fly a plane? Sure.

 

[KevinDrummer]

You've got to listen to the differences - then you'll know. Can you walk across the country? Sure. Ride a bike, drive a car, fly a plane? Sure.

Your first sentence I understood. The rest

I have heard the differnces between a mic with (cheap) pres and one without. To my ear, it's just raising the level.

I'm just looking for an explanation. I'm sure you guys get a little tired of the folks trying to create the basement studio and create "pro" (or passable in my case) results, but hey - it can't hurt to ask

Cuz' that's exactly what I'm trying to do. If a component of the system is absolutely required then I will work, save, and purchase it. But if my resources can be better used elsewhere, I don't want to shell out $500 or more on preamps. This is HOME recording dot com - right?

 

[teainthesahara]

Your first sentence I understood. The rest

I have heard the differnces between a mic with (cheap) pres and one without. To my ear, it's just raising the level.

I'm just looking for an explanation. I'm sure you guys get a little tired of the folks trying to create the basement studio and create "pro" (or passable in my case) results, but hey - it can't hurt to ask

Cuz' that's exactly what I'm trying to do. If a component of the system is absolutely required then I will work, save, and purchase it. But if my resources can be better used elsewhere, I don't want to shell out $500 or more on preamps. This is HOME recording dot com - right?

I think your misunderstanding what people are telling you
No one is suggesting you go out and buy expensive preamps.

The equasion is not:
"Pro Recording = use preamp; Home Recording = Don't need a preamp".

Every mic, whether your in the basement, in the field or in a pro studio must run through a preamp! In your own set up, you are hooking your mics up to preamps via your mixers. So, in reality, you have not heard the difference between a mic used with a preamp and a mic used with no preamp if you are running them through your mixer channels.

If your happy with the sound you get with the behringer mixer, then your cheapest option would be to get another behringer mixer (with line outs), or the Nady, so you have atleast 4 other preamps to stick into the delta individually. If you plug your mics straight into the delta, you will not have either a "pro recording" or a "home recording". You will have "no recording". Or one that sounds this big....

Im assuming your buying the delta 1010, the one without the 2 preamps already built in. The delta 101LT has 2 preamp built into the card...see...your STILL using preamps

good luck

T

 

[KevinDrummer]

I think your misunderstanding what people are telling you
No one is suggesting you go out and buy expensive preamps.

The equasion is not:
"Pro Recording = use preamp; Home Recording = Don't need a preamp".

Every mic, whether your in the basement, in the field or in a pro studio must run through a preamp! In your own set up, you are hooking your mics up to preamps via your mixers. So, in reality, you have not heard the difference between a mic used with a preamp and a mic used with no preamp if you are running them through your mixer channels.

If your happy with the sound you get with the behringer mixer, then your cheapest option would be to get another behringer mixer (with line outs), or the Nady, so you have atleast 4 other preamps to stick into the delta individually. If you plug your mics straight into the delta, you will not have either a "pro recording" or a "home recording". You will have "no recording". Or one that sounds this big....

Im assuming your buying the delta 1010, the one without the 2 preamps already built in. In that case...your STILL using preamps!

good luck

T

Thanks. In my earlier post, I gave my signal chain. I plugged a close mic into the Behringer input with NO pre - i.e. line input. That's what I heard - and recorded successfully. I'm still confused why some of the preamps are so expensive. Seems like a simple device.

 

[Farview]

And you turned the trim control up on the lin input didn't you. You are still preamping the signal.

You should go somewhere that you can listen to different preamps side by side to hear the difference between cheap and expensive ones. It is a giant difference but the rest of the signal chain has to be of high caliber or you won't notice it.
Your sound will only be as good as the crappiest thing in the chain. If you plug a $3000 preamp into you behringer, the circuitry in the behringer will not allow you to hear the difference, because it won't pass a good enough signal.
And if you are listening to it on crummy computer speakers, the speakers aren't good enough to let you hear the difference.

 

[teainthesahara]

Thanks. In my earlier post, I gave my signal chain. I plugged a close mic into the Behringer input with NO pre - i.e. line input. That's what I heard - and recorded successfully. I'm still confused why some of the preamps are so expensive. Seems like a simple device.

Here's a pic of your mixer. Which line inputs are you using?
If you are using HI Z/impedance mics, you might be able to plug straight into line 3 and 4 and hear something.

Why are some cheap and some expensive? It's just like cars. It's no secret how to build a mainstream car. Why are some ultra cheap, and some super expensive? All the same reasons you think of for cars will be the same for preamps...

Buying the nady or behringer mixer will not cost that much more than a bunch of splitters and impedance matching devices. It'll be more cost effective, and better sounding to just get the preamps...even cheap ones. At this stage of the game, your recordings definetly will NOT be dissapointing because you dont have expensive preamps.

When people say preamps make a huge difference....well, i like 2 sugars in my coffee. Cause it tastes a buch different all sugared up and i like that taste. But in the end....its just sugar....even without it, im still gonna get my coffee laden caffienated vibe that im after

 

[crazydoc]

Your first sentence I understood. The rest

I have heard the differnces between a mic with (cheap) pres and one without. To my ear, it's just raising the level.

What I was trying to say is yes, you can record with your mic directly into the line input of the soundcard, but there is going to be a difference in quality of the recording - not only in the level or volume, but in the way it's going to sound also. There is going to be more noise, as you have to use much more gain from the soundcard amplifiers, and there may be a difference in frequency response of the mic also, depending on the mic, transformer and line input impedances. I'm just saying you need to hook it all up and listen to it to see if it's adequate for your purposes. It's not considered adequate for "pro level* recording, but only you can tell if it's "passable" for your needs.

If I get a chance tomorrow I'll make a short recording with a dynamic mic with and without a preamp and post it.

 

[crazydoc]

Here's 2 mp3's of a "key jangle."

One was made with SM58 into Lo-Z to Hi-Z line transformer (as that's all I have available) into the line input of my soundcard at the highest recording gain. The resulting very low level signal was normalized to 80% max.

The other was the SM58 into Joemeek MQ3 into soundcard (no EQ or compression).

It's obvious which is which (so I won't tell you ), but the one without the pre is better than I thought it would turn out, and for drum hits in a mix might be "passable." Go for it.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

Wait a minute. Wouldn't sound cards have some kind of preamp in them? After all, you do hook computer mics into them.

 

[crazydoc]

I don't know diddly about soundcards, but I think that generally line inputs in electronic devices may have buffers and attenuators but not amplification.

The mic inputs of soundcards do have preamps, but in consumer grade soundcards are generally crappy and not to be used.

Here's a block diagram of a soundcard for perusal.