Do I need a Mic pre-amp?

[adolescentsfan]

I'm going to get some recording equipment. I'm recording stripped down raw punk, real D.I.Y. style. Do I need a Mic pre-amp, could I record without one? I need to figure out what I need before I get anything so I can get fewer amounts of equipment, but of higher quality.

 

[Track Rat]

Depending on what you want to do and which recording device, you may need several.

 

[daav]

What do you have? A mixer will have preamps built in, but in almost all cases, a microphone will need a preamp and to record you will need a mic for vocals at least.
You'll want to use a mic to record guitar amps too unles syoau re using a modeller. The difference between a miced amp and recording direct out through an amp is not the same as the difference between overproduced and raw, it is the difference between (potentially) good sounding raw and crap.

Daav

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you have a mic, you need a mic preamp. If you have two mics (that you want to use at the same time), you need two preamps. Etc.

If you have a device such as a mixer or a computer interface that has "MIC IN" jacks, those will have preamps already built into each MIC IN channel and you don't have to buy seperate preamps. However, if you are using condensor mics, you also need to make sure that the device you're plugging into also has what's called "phantom power" capabilities. this basically means that the device you are plugging the mic into also has a power supply built into it that's designed to supply power to the microphone itself.

Head down to your local bookstore and peruse the music section. There us an entire brigade of books designed for someone just starting out that will explain the different types of gear and help you sort out what you will and will not need to get a gureilla recording setup going.

G.

 

[adolescentsfan]

I'll be sure to get a 4-track that I can run the guitar directly into so I don't have to mic the amps. I'll have to record vocals (duh) and I'll mic up drums. I'm assuming a mic preamp will get me a hell of alot better sound. Or could I just run a mic from the amp and through the digital 4-track, would the sound be crap? Or would that even work? I'll look at some books. You guys have been very helpful.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm assuming a mic preamp will get me a hell of alot better sound. Or could I just run a mic from the amp and through the digital 4-track, would the sound be crap?

If you have a mic, a mic preamp of one form or another is required. Except a few EXTREMELY RARE exceptions (e.g. a USB mic, but I'd stay away from those for now), you will always have to run your mic through a premap before anything elee.

If you're getting a 4-track recorder, you need to check the specifications on the individual unit as to how many MIC inputs it has. That'll tell you how many mic pre's it has built-in and therefore how many mics you can plug into it at one time without requiring more preamps. For example, if you have a 4-track machine that only has two microphone inputs, that means that you can only connect two mics to it at any one time. If you need to have 4 mics running simultaneously (e.g. you are recording the whole band at once, or you want more than two mics on the drum kit), then you'd need at least another 2-channel mic preamp to go in between the two extra mics and the 4-track.

When you're asking about "just running a mic from the amp", what do you mean by that? What kind of amp are you talking about? If you're talking about plugging a mic into a hardware amplifier of some type, you should not do that unless that amp has a specific microphone input (meaning it has a specific mic preamp built into it). You should never plug a mic into a line or an instrument input, the levels just will not properly match.

If you mean you have the guitar cabinet miked up to record the amplified sound, you'll still need to have that mic run through a preamp. The loudness of what you're recording is not relevant; the mic will still require a preamp to bring it up to the same nominal elvels as everything else.

G.

 

[adolescentsfan]

Yeah, I was talking about my Fender guitar amp. So I'll run it through a pre-amp. I'm not starting out with more than 2 mics so I'm not going to need a a super exspensive pre-amp, I'll shop around for the best I can find. I'm a 16 year-old kid with bankrupt parents. How the hell am I supposed to afford tons of equipment? I have gotten alot of great advice from you guys. I'm very grateful that you took the time to help a newbie like me.

 

[gummblefish]

Yeah, I was talking about my Fender guitar amp. So I'll run it through a pre-amp. I'm not starting out with more than 2 mics so I'm not going to need a a super exspensive pre-amp, I'll shop around for the best I can find. I'm a 16 year-old kid with bankrupt parents. How the hell am I supposed to afford tons of equipment? I have gotten alot of great advice from you guys. I'm very grateful that you took the time to help a newbie like me.

Why dont you mic up the fender amp? It will be better than going direct into the 4 track. You can get good results with minimal money, it just is a case of expirementing. Thats half the fun anyway. You want cheap reverb, experiment with "real" rooms, move the mics further away etc. Perhaps try the bathroom or in stairwells or up chimneys.

 

[adolescentsfan]

I'll still need the 4-track for the rest of the recording though. I should try mic-ing the amp. I've heard you usually get lower quality sound though, I want it to sound how it is coming out of the amp. Will I get a less accurate sound through the 4-track or the mic?

 

[adolescentsfan]

I've checking out alot of digital 4-tracks and most product overviews say that mic pre-amps are programmed in. In that case I wouldn't need a pre-amp now would I? Save my cash if possible, unless you guys know more than me(which I'll bet you do).

 

[wolf70]

Too bad you don't have access to a computer. You could just download and run something like Audacity for free and record as many tracks as you want with it, no limit of four tracks and save yourself some money.

Then just go in on the computers soundcard with your mic. It would probably come out better than a cheapo four track too. That's what I'm doing and I'm getting halfway decent recordings, better than the stand alone four and eight track recorders I was using.

If you want better quality, buy a better soundcard for like $100 to $150 bucks, still cheaper than a stand alone four track recorder and you would probably end up with better quality recordings.

I thought that most beginners did it this way because it's so much cheaper than buying a stand alone multi-track recorder.

 

[adolescentsfan]

My computer is garbage, but let's just say I got a soundcard for it, what else would I have to get to actually record on Audacity. I mean you don't just plug your freakin guitar into your computer.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

My computer is garbage, but let's just say I got a soundcard for it, what else would I have to get to actually record on Audacity. I mean you don't just plug your freakin guitar into your computer.

Bypass the soundcard altogether and instead get a Tascam us122. It can take two mics, two lines or two instruments at one time (or any combination of two) and pump them direct into your computer via USB. A hell of a lot better than a soundcard.

And don't worry about your computer. If it's a Wintel, as long as you have the disk space (~5MB/minute per mono track), anything built in the past 5 years will work for you just fine to start out (regardlles of what the tweakheads try telling you.)

G.

 

[adolescentsfan]

It seems that the us122 has been replaced by the us122L. As I've said before I'm a noob, what exactly can I do with the Tascam? plug it into the computer and run it straight into Audacity? I could record unlimted number of tracks then couldn't I? That is if I knew how to use Audacity, I hope there's a readme somewhere for that program. I've got to look up that Tascam some more.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Not only could you use it with Audacity, but it also comes with (at least the 122 does) a free copy of Cubase LE which you can use instead if you wish (I would.)

G.

 

[wolf70]

My computer is garbage, but let's just say I got a soundcard for it, what else would I have to get to actually record on Audacity. I mean you don't just plug your freakin guitar into your computer.

As others have already suggested you put a mic in front of your amp and then connect the mic to your soundcard. Micing an amp will get you the best sound quality. Much better imo that any of those fake guitar processors with amp simulators, provided you have a decent amp and mic.

I somewhat agree with SouthSIDE Glen when he suggested getting an external soundcard. In your case, it sounds like it would probably be easier for you. You just plug it in and play. But I have have read a lot of negative reviews on the Tascam us-122, so I would do your homework before you just buy one.

I have also heard usb soundcards can have a slight delay when recording, especially if you have a slower or older computer and make sure your computer has usb 2.0!!! IMHO Firewire is the way to go over usb for an external card or go with an internal card. Firewire is much quicker, closer to an internal soundcards speed. Check if your computer has a firewire port of course before you buy one. But you can easily add a firewire pci card to most pc's if you don't for around $15-$20 bucks.

I find an internal card to be better for the price, but you'll have to install it. I get absolutely no delay of any kind with an internal card. Even my computers junk stock soundcard had no delay.

I would go with an internal card, like the M-audio Delta 44, over the Tascam though, or a firewire card if you want an external card, just my opinion after much investigation into the topic.

But as others have already said in this thread, do your homework first before you invest in anything. That is if you want something you'll be happy with.

 

[adolescentsfan]

Of course I want to be happy with what I buy, that's why I've been doing research, and why I came on here in the first place. I don't know what, if any software is included with the 122L, I might end up having to use some other program. Like wolf70 said there are negative reviews for the 122, alot more positive ones though. I'm assuming the 122L is going to have less bugs, why else would they bother releasing it? I know my desktop has USB 2.0, my laptop on the other hand I have no idea about, how do I check?

As far as firewire goes, units like the Presonus Firebox would take up almost my entire budget, I'm not rich. I have been looking at the M Audio Fast Track Pro, if I can find it cheap enough that might be the way to go. It comes with Ableton Live Lite 4, and GT PLayer Express software. What do you guys know about those programs?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I have have read a lot of negative reviews on the Tascam us-122, so I would do your homework before you just buy one.

I have also heard usb soundcards can have a slight delay when recording, especially if you have a slower or older computer and make sure your computer has usb 2.0!!! IMHO Firewire is the way to go over usb for an external card or go with an internal card.

I have used the us122 myself for as demanding a job as recording baby grand piano solos, and I found it to be an excellent unit for the price. The pramps are superior to the mAudios and far, far better than most internal soundcards.

There is no latency in recording due to the USB interface, and any latencies that might crop up can be adjusted for in the software. Additionally, the us122 - as with the majority of 2-channel audio USB devices - operated off of USB 1.1, not 2.0 (as to whether this is true for the new "L" model, I don't know). And, no this is not an issue. While FW may have wider bandwidth than USB 1.1 (BTW, it's actually narrower than USB 2.0), at the bandwidths (speeds) required for two channels of audio, this is not even close to being a problem. Some quick math:

USB 1.1 has a bandwidth of 12Mbit/sec. A single audio stream of 44.1kHz/24bit requires approximately 1.06Mbits/sec. This means that two channels of audio at that rate requires only 2.12Mbits/sec. This is only abut 18% of USB 1.1's theoretical capacity. One cound double the sample rate to 96kHz and still have almost two-thirds of USB 1.1s capacity left over for everything else on the bus.

When we recorded that grand piano, that was a 8-hour long session, not counting breaks. The Tascam shared the a laptop USB bus with a USB mouse and a 56x USB CD-R burner. Not once in that 8 hour period was there a single hiccup or delay, and the sound we got from the Tascam was much better than we got from the Mackie VLZ that we also had with us.

Take the reviews for what you think they're worth, but I have worked with both the comparable mAudio USB pre as well as several internal soundcards, and in my experience the us122 is the superior device, hands down, without even breaking a sweat, and it even beat the Mackie VLZ mixer for overall sound quality. FWIW, YMMV and all that.

G.

 

[wolf70]

I have used the us122 myself for as demanding a job as recording baby grand piano solos, and I found it to be an excellent unit for the price. The pramps are superior to the mAudios and far, far better than most internal soundcards.

There is no latency in recording due to the USB interface, and any latencies that might crop up can be adjusted for in the software. Additionally, the us122 - as with the majority of 2-channel audio USB devices - operated off of USB 1.1, not 2.0 (as to whether this is true for the new "L" model, I don't know). And, no this is not an issue. While FW may have wider bandwidth than USB 1.1 (BTW, it's actually narrower than USB 2.0), at the bandwidths (speeds) required for two channels of audio, this is not even close to being a problem. Some quick math:

USB 1.1 has a bandwidth of 12Mbit/sec. A single audio stream of 44.1kHz/24bit requires approximately 1.06Mbits/sec. This means that two channels of audio at that rate requires only 2.12Mbits/sec. This is only abut 18% of USB 1.1's theoretical capacity. One cound double the sample rate to 96kHz and still have almost two-thirds of USB 1.1s capacity left over for everything else on the bus.

When we recorded that grand piano, that was a 8-hour long session, not counting breaks. The Tascam shared the a laptop USB bus with a USB mouse and a 56x USB CD-R burner. Not once in that 8 hour period was there a single hiccup or delay, and the sound we got from the Tascam was much better than we got from the Mackie VLZ that we also had with us.

Take the reviews for what you think they're worth, but I have worked with both the comparable mAudio USB pre as well as several internal soundcards, and in my experience the us122 is the superior device, hands down, without even breaking a sweat, and it even beat the Mackie VLZ mixer for overall sound quality. FWIW, YMMV and all that.

G.

Ok, well I never said I tried the Tascam. I was considering purchasing the unit at one time, but from what I've heard from other musicians, on the net and at music stores was, it is not recommended to buy the unit. I was told it can have delay problems and all kinds of other difficulties (like breaking down a short time after buying it, driver problems, bad pres etc...) and many of the reviews at various sites seem to reflect these opinions other musicians told me about the unit.

I'm not a recording expert, just trying to offer some helpful advice on what I've almost universally heard about the Tascam unit. It sounds like you were one of the lucky one's with the Tascam, not everyone has had such pleasant experiences with it. You sound like a big supporter of Tascam products though. But the recommendations from most of those I talked to about the Tascam us 122 was to avoid it.

 

[adolescentsfan]

SouthSIDE Glen and Wolf70 you've been very helpful, it's good to hear opinions from multiple people so I can truely get a sense of how good a product is. I was wondering if it is possible to plug headphones into the Tascam and hear both the track you are recording and the previous tracks? I know the M Audio Fast Track Pro has that capability.

The us122L is USB 1.1 compatible, so no worries there.

My only worry after that is whether to go with a free recording program such as Audacity, or Garageband, or go for bundled software, or purchase software.

Forgive me for all the questions but I want to make the right choice, I don't have the cash at the moment to buy a ton of equipment.