DMP3 vs VTB1

[Middleman]

I agree with this. You should not let the high $$$ stuff be your creative limit. Hell, I used the cheapest stuff for years way back and nobody ever told me thta my recordings sounded bad. My recordings back then were always considered to be done in a pro studio and they always got compliments. Gear snobbery is when someone discounts anything because of name and $$$. There is some low $$ stuff that is great and some that is not. It is up to the individual to find out what works for them. This is the hardest thing to do in practice because you have to have the stuff in your studio to really know how it will work. The high end stuff is never a gamble and always useful on something, maybe what you don't want right now.

The difference is that high end stuff is ultimately resellable and you can get your $$$ back if it does'nt work for you.

Completely agree on this. Short story.

Last year I was up at Westlake Studios in Hollywood. A freind who has engineered on some top albums put up one of my songs on the big speakers. He and the assistant were oohing and aaahing about the sound of the strings on a ballad I had done. They made comments on the ambience and quality of the reverb and how it created a really great vibe. They asked me was it a Lexicon or TC Electronics, I forget the model numbers but in that place usually the top end of both lines.

I did not have the heart to tell them I used a freeware soundfont for the strings and the Sonitus reverb plug in that comes with Sonar. I begged off by saying it was not in the category they were accustomed to.

High end gear is not always required but more than often decreases the time to a satisfactory result.

 

[CoolCat]

I'm not sure who you are referring to here, but I hope it wasn't me. Most of my gear is budget stuff and I own a DMP3. I'd never advocate that anyone give up and would always recommend that they don't. I would recommend to get the best equipment you can afford and do the best you can with it, whether it be a DMP3, VTB-1, Avalon 737, or whatever else you choose to spend money on.

Terry

...refering to no one...only dissing the "term" gear snob.
hey, gimme a break, i cuss alot. nobfhkng deal..
peaceout.

Member wants to know DMP3 or VTB1???
(probably be happy with either it sounds)
kinda sums up the $$ range.
Avalon or a used Abbey Road tube preamp ain't in the Poll.

the thread about the biggies listening to the tune on the Pro Monitors and liking the strings section that was done on freeware...
thats a frkn great story.

wasn't Louie,Louie demo recorded with one dangling microphone or some mishap sht...for a reitrement death cruise gig???

one more point ...
Behringer stuff sucks.

thank you very mush,
Joe Gearsnobpeasent

 

[Nick The Man]

why exaclty does the DMP3 sound better what makes it sound better "clearer", or "warmer", or what i dont understand what people mean when they say something sounds "better". it pretty much depends on what sound you want

 

[Brent Casey]

I have a VTB-1 on my bench right now, doing some distortion measurements. It looks like the strongest 2nd order harmonic and the least 3rd occurs with the tube blend set at around 3. As the blend is increased towards TDC (top dead center) the 2nd increases, but the 3rd order begins to catch up until they are roughly equal. THD at this point is around 1.51%.
Also, with the tube blend maxed out it, there is some symmetrical clipping going on, so whoever was talking about perceiving some "compression" in the VTB-1 with the blend dialed in, this is probably what you are hearing.

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

 

[mcolling]

I have a VTB-1 on my bench right now, doing some distortion measurements. It looks like the strongest 2nd order harmonic and the least 3rd occurs with the tube blend set at around 3. As the blend is increased towards TDC (top dead center) the 2nd increases, but the 3rd order begins to catch up until they are roughly equal. THD at this point is around 1.51%.
Also, with the tube blend maxed out it, there is some symmetrical clipping going on, so whoever was talking about perceiving some "compression" in the VTB-1 with the blend dialed in, this is probably what you are hearing.

Yeah, we were talking about the clipping that happens with the tube blend on the vtb1. But one thing interesting was that a couple guys actually have the strength of the signal diminish quite a bit when they dial in the tube. I'd be interested to know what the qualities the THD has as it approaches the maximum.

why exaclty does the DMP3 sound better what makes it sound better "clearer", or "warmer", or what i dont understand what people mean when they say something sounds "better". it pretty much depends on what sound you want

I agree totally! In fact, I think we should excercise the terms "better" and "worse" from our vocabulary. It is really a cop-out to use these terms because they convey nothing and bely ignorance. Don't get me wrong, some gear is total crap, but why not describe the gear as "distorted," "noisy," or "unpleasantly colouring" rather than "worse." These other terms provide useful benchmarks for describing qualities of what most people would consider poor sounding gear, but they do not necessarily equate with "bad".

Music is, afterall, art, and so there is no objective.

 

[Brent Casey]

The dynamic range of the signal does decrease when the tube blend is maxed. The harmonic content, odd and even from 1-7 is fairly equal with a predominating 2nd order spike.

Brent Casey

Yeah, we were talking about the clipping that happens with the tube blend on the vtb1. But one thing interesting was that a couple guys actually have the strength of the signal diminish quite a bit when they dial in the tube. I'd be interested to know what the qualities the THD has as it approaches the maximum.

 

[Son of Mixerman]

The dynamic range of the signal does decrease when the tube blend is maxed. The harmonic content, odd and even from 1-7 is fairly equal with a predominating 2nd order spike.

Brent Casey

I'd like to see any piece of gear that does not lose dynamic range after you distort a signal. Without makeup gain adjustments of coarse.

I seem to get the feeling that people are expecting the tube blend to impart a quality they really don't have a grasp on. There are some similarities to compression and the clipping caused by certain types of distortion as far as how they sound. Variable Mu compression ala Manley, Altec, Fairchild and I think the LA-2 was tube even though the LA-2A is optical. (I can't remember so ask EveAnna Manley).

Just to compare though I have the Alto version of the VTB-1 and the tube blend is one of the worst sounds I have ever heard coming out of a piece of gear. Ack!

Gear is only as good as what you play through it!


SoMm

 

[Bodhisan]

The dynamic range of the signal does decrease when the tube blend is maxed. The harmonic content, odd and even from 1-7 is fairly equal with a predominating 2nd order spike.

Brent Casey

Brent, I've got two VTB-1's, and on one, if the dynamic range of the signal does decrease when the tube blend is maxed, it decreases so little I can't really see it....with my other VTB-1, however, with the questionable defect, the signal decreases by 50% -- with a wave signal that looks like a worm, compressed quite well, actually! Justin thinks it could be a bad tube, but never did hear back from the "designer" if this was true. I haven't had time to replace the tube, but when I do, I'll give a "report."

 

[Bodhisan]

Finally threw in a new tube and fixed the "compression" problem.

 

[jerberson12]

Roland MMP-2
$150

Very COol, Goodlooking, lots of features(comp, modeling, gate, EQ, Software version for PC) Smooth quality, pro sound

does not deserve a discontinuation that roland did

 

[alanhyatt]

With regards to the VTB-1 problem Bodhisan is having, it seems there are only two answers right now. It is probably in the tube itself, or there could be something happening in the hi voltage (60V) supply that could be causing this, but some voltage tests would clear that up.

Remember, the VTB-1's tube blend is there to add some color. In many cases it does just that, and in some others it does not. The unit is just over $100.00, so you can't expect it to be the end of all mic amps. In many tracks it has outperformed very expensive competitors, and in others, has not done the job at all.

It is a tool to use. Many people here have seen very good results with their VTB-1's, and some others not. You can say that for just about anything out there. End result is if it is broke, we will fix it.

 

[Bodhisan]

Like I said, my problem was fixed by putting in a new tube (thanks to Alan's simple directions on the PMI board).

I'm a huge fan of the VTB-1's, and became one quickly after reading Harvey's review then acquiring my first one. When I bought my AEA R84, I took the mic and one of the VTB-1's over to a friend's studio. I wanted him to compare it with the Great River he had. We did a/b'ing with an acoustic guitar and vocals, not only with the ribbon but with a KSM32 (I think), a nice AT that I can't remember the number (maybe 4050?), and one of the Baby Blue Bottles. It was an interesting evening as I slowly watched my friend's jaw drop more and more as we went back and forth between pre's. For one thing, the VTB-1 had a stronger output the GR. For another, neither one of us could tell a difference between the two pre's, with the exception that the GR was a speck quieter with the output full-on with both pres -- but maybe because the VTB-1 had a stronger output (the stronger outputs were evident from the size of the waves).

I believe those out there who have said you can't really tell much of a difference between a high-brow pre and a cheaper one until you record 32 tracks, and then it's quite apparent that a GR is superior to a less-expensive pre. Lucky for me the most tracks I might record are 16 or so, and six of those might be back-up harmonies (I'm a big fan of that Beatles, Elton John, Eagles, Cars style of a chorus of harmonies), so something like the VTB-1 is just perfect for me, as a hobbyist home recorder.

By the way, the tube-blend on the VTB-1, as Harvey stated, is something you can clearly hear thickening and warming the track as you turn it up. He said, and others, too, that it gets shitty after 12:30 or so, but I find mine sounding just fine even up to 3 p.m. I replaced both of my tubes with Mullards, but can't really tell the difference, and I only did that because the one went bad and I replaced it in both of them. I also just replaced the tube in my T3 with a Mullard and can't tell a difference. Oh, well, it still sounds awesome.

Bodhisan

 

[billisa]

When I bought my AEA R84, I took the mic and one of the VTB-1's over to a friend's studio. I wanted him to compare it with the Great River he had. We did a/b'ing with an acoustic guitar and vocals, not only with the ribbon but with a KSM32 (I think), a nice AT that I can't remember the number (maybe 4050?), and one of the Baby Blue Bottles. It was an interesting evening as I slowly watched my friend's jaw drop more and more as we went back and forth between pre's. For one thing, the VTB-1 had a stronger output the GR. For another, neither one of us could tell a difference between the two pre's, with the exception that the GR was a speck quieter with the output full-on with both pres -- but maybe because the VTB-1 had a stronger output (the stronger outputs were evident from the size of the waves).

Bodhisan

Amazing post really. I'm sure the very pricey gear has a valid and necessary place. But if you can't make good sound with a VTB1 and a B1, then a Great River and a Neumann won't enable you to make excellent sound.

 

[alanhyatt]

Amazing post really. I'm sure the very pricey gear has a valid and necessary place. But if you can't make good sound with a VTB1 and a B1, then a Great River and a Neumann won't enable you to make excellent sound.

Well said. Tools are tools. A terrible Carpenter would never be able to build a level house with the best tools in the world. A great Carpenter can build a strong level house with hand tools.

As there are many levels of users on HR, each one has their own level of experience, and their results will always vary with the tools they use.

 

[chessrock]

I'd say most people who frequent this board either don't have the ears of the monitoring environments to be able to tell the difference between the cheaper mic pres versus the more high-brow.

(Although I still think it would be interesting to compare the two after multiple layers -- say 10 or more tracks, not including backup vocals, etc).

Unless you're tracking for a major label release, or planning on opening a comercial studio, I just don't see the point in spending big bucks on a mic pre when there are so many other limiting factors you could address that can likely provide exponentially greater sonic improvement.

Ethan Winer keeps pointing out (preaching?), for example, how most people's mixing environments can be as much as 10-20 db off in certain frequency ranges. Add to that the amount of distortion typical of most monitors, and it really starts to put mic preamp specs in to their proper perspective. Speaking of which ... the specifications of an INA-163 based pream like the DMP-3, for example, look supremely serene, audiofile and hi-fi compared to what comes out of your speakers and monitoring environment.

 

[leddy]

Just thought I'd chime in and mention my experience with the VTB-1. The tube feature seems to be usable for my taste in small amounts (9 or 10 o-clock at the most). For me, this thing earns it's keep with dynamic mics like the SM58. I mostly record live, so the vocal mic choices are limited. Makes the SM58 sound present & detailed and totally usable as a recording mic. (I'm using on female jazz vocal).

 

[amzavareei]

They have the DMP3 new at eCost for only $116.77!

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/det...source=ewbfroogle&adcampaign=email,ewbfroogle

 

[junplugged]

I want one - dmp3. Then I could tell you out of 4 cheap pres, the one I like best. My go-to cheap tube pre is the Art V3 Studio I also have the vtb1 and presonus tubepre.

 

[dickiefunk]

I want one - dmp3. Then I could tell you out of 4 cheap pres, the one I like best. My go-to cheap tube pre is the Art V3 Studio I also have the vtb1 and presonus tubepre.

You might want to add the Rane MS-1b to the list aswell.

 

[chessrock]

I'm sure Junplugged from two years ago thanks you for the advice.

.