Distorted guitar mids

  • Thread starter Thread starter ecktronic
  • Start date Start date
Its funny, a lot of people just say a 57 of 57 and condenser.
We were tracking my marshall 2203 the other day at melting point and the first mic we tried was the 57, I told the guy coming over to bring a few of his drum mics which we proceeded to try as an experement placing in different places and distances and oddly enough the 'egg' (AKG D112) sounded way tighter than the 57! we ended up having the egg pointing off axis from the centre of the speaker and a SP B1 on another speaker on axis. the main thing i took from this is just experement with what you have! as the D112 blew the 57 outta the water!
Mabe try looking at those two
 
fishkarma said:
Its funny, a lot of people just say a 57 of 57 and condenser.
We were tracking my marshall 2203 the other day at melting point and the first mic we tried was the 57, I told the guy coming over to bring a few of his drum mics which we proceeded to try as an experement placing in different places and distances and oddly enough the 'egg' (AKG D112) sounded way tighter than the 57! we ended up having the egg pointing off axis from the centre of the speaker and a SP B1 on another speaker on axis. the main thing i took from this is just experement with what you have! as the D112 blew the 57 outta the water!
Mabe try looking at those two
Click to expand...

Yeah we used the hure Beta52A for our gutiars. Fekin love that mic. Its so versatile, has a smooth tight low end and very good high end response. Ive used it for kick, bass, guitar, acoustic, toms!

Cheers,
Eck
 
Not sure why but this post dissapeared so here it is again.

Here is a sample of my best guitar recordings to let yous hear what results Im getting so far.
Please don't laugh, I know they aren't close to being professional.

This guitar was recorded using a 2003 Les Paul into a Mesa Boogie dual rectifier into Mesa 4x12. I mic'd it off axis with a Shure MKIII and a Beta52A.
No processing was used atall.
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8185

This guitar was recorded using a PRS McCarty Soapbar into a Boss GT6 into a Marshall JCM2000 DSL50 into a 4x12 1960 cab. I mic'd it roughly the same way as the first guitar.
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8186

Any comments on my tone and how to improve it to get pro results are very welcome. :)

Cheers,
Eck
 
What I tend to do is not set the amp very bright. then I use an EQ to bring in the upper mids in the mix. Most of the time I add high shelf at 8k, that gives the guitar air and life without getting grainy or annoying.
 
Farview said:
What I tend to do is not set the amp very bright. then I use an EQ to bring in the upper mids in the mix. Most of the time I add high shelf at 8k, that gives the guitar air and life without getting grainy or annoying.
Click to expand...

intresting.
see, i never think top down like that and i need to.


as far as the general question, the solution is all. i.e.


good amp + good guitar + whatever mic + good pre +nice eq + good ears.
remember the budgets some (or most) of the people you're talking about have.
 
Farview said:
What I tend to do is not set the amp very bright. then I use an EQ to bring in the upper mids in the mix. Most of the time I add high shelf at 8k, that gives the guitar air and life without getting grainy or annoying.
Click to expand...

Ill need to try that.
Cheers,
Eck
 
ecktronic said:
In professional mixes the guitars sound real smooth in the high mids (1k-5k) and aren't harsh, but in alot of less professional recordings the high mids are harsher and not so smooth.
Click to expand...


That's because most professional recordings use much, much higher-end amplifiers. In most cases, they have the luxury of selecting between no less than 10 amps before deciding which one gives them the most appropriate tone.

To put things in to perspective ... Have you ever been to a "real" boutique amp store? The kind where they have like 100 amps on hand, private listening rooms, etc.?

Well ... when a band with a real budget and label backing them up goes to do an album ... they can basically walk in to any one of these places, and say "I'll have that one over there ... and that one over there."

Alright, maybe not litereally, but it's not too far off ... same basic idea. Not to mention the fact that most of these guys have the benefit of a dedicated guitar technician or two who's sole job it is to make sure there are no loose wires in your guitar pickups and that all of the tubes in the amp are fresh but not too fresh, etc. etc.

On the other hand ... Johnny Home rec'er is basically limited to either his $100 Crate amp he bought at the pawn shop ... or his buddie's uber-expensive Marshall JCM800 :D ... that's a nice amp but has at least a few years too much wear on it's tubes and along with a somewhat annoying buzz that really should be taken care of before anyon does any serious recording with it.

And rather than having a guitar tech, he has to rely on his bass player's brother, who happens to know a little bit about electronics, and has made a few diy guitar pedals in his day. :D

Really, Eck. That's the reality of the situation. I'm not saying that it's a hopeless cause for an amateur / diy. But I am trying to point out the reality of the situation ... in other words, this isn't so much about whether or not you're using EQ correctly or if you're using the right mic or anything even remotely associated with tracking or mixing technique.

These guys you're using as your benchmark are just playing on some really fucking nice guitar amps that most of us would drool over. They obsess over their guitar tone as if it was their first and only child, and they have guys on hand that know their shit when it comes to tweaking this stuff. And issues like harsh high mids? They eat that shit for breakfast.

It's just not part of their world, and will very rarely even enter in to it. And when it does, it's stomped out like an cockroach.

.
 
***** LINK UPDATED 9th July*****


chessrock said:
These guys you're using as your benchmark are just playing on some really fucking nice guitar amps that most of us would drool over. They obsess over their guitar tone as if it was their first and only child, and they have guys on hand that know their shit when it comes to tweaking this stuff. And issues like harsh high mids? They eat that shit for breakfast.

It's just not part of their world, and will very rarely even enter in to it. And when it does, it's stomped out like an cockroach.

.
Click to expand...
Yeah I am very unexperienced in this department. Why cant guitars be as easy to record as bass and drums. :)
I really need to spend a good few solid weeks experimenting with the guitars.

Here is a sample of my best disorted guitar tone.
I think it sounds good, but I know its still not a pro sound in my ears.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8216
Cheers,
Eck
 
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I know this is a distorted guitars thread but if you back off the gain a bit it will become a much clearer tone which will make them actually sound more aggressive an just plain heavier, which is usually the goal in distorted guitars!
Its a bit of a paradox really as to hit harder you have to hold back more (on the gain) lol!
 
ecktronic said:
Gotcha.
Let us know when you have some guitar recordings up, id be interested to listen.

Eck
Click to expand...

Hey Eck, On our website or Myspace profile there is a new track titled Lessons In Trust where you can hear what I explained before. The guitar part in the final chorus at the end was filtered to remove the hashy ear bleeding harmonics and pick attack noise. The filter was a 24dB/oct Lo-pass set for a cutoff freq. of 8437 Hz and the resonance at 4.8% with 100% wet mix. No other effect applied.

I think the sound cleaned up nicely without becoming lifeless.

btw: you'll get a better quality .mp3 from our website. Myspace music always sounds like it's been recoded at a lower ratio.
 
Here is a mixing trick I discovered after reading how the BBE stomp works.

I use the Izotope Ozone exciter section on guitars. Set a slight delay on 0.3 low-mid frequency range and raise the excitation level on the same band just a bit... and amazingly it rids of that nasty hiss (phase distortion) that I didn't even realized was there untill I got rid off it... it really cleaned up the distorted guitar.
 
ecktronic said:
I noticed my last link to my best guitar recording sitn working so heres a new link.
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8216
Click to expand...


Ouch.

Just trying to help here, but wow. That's just a big 'ol mess.

Look, for starters, you need to accept the harsh reality that the GT or whatever pedal it is you're using has to go. You'll never get usable distortion out of it.

You need to use the gain of your amp for the distortion ... you need to use it sparingly, and most importantly, you need to completely disengage any "suck" knobs on the amp.

Now I realize this is probably going to be a painful and difficult thing, but I'm familiar with the rectum-fryers ... and I can hear that suck knob from a mile away. What I'm refering to is the one labeled "Presence." You know the knob I'm refering to. And it's all over that example you posted, and it's mucking up that guitar with a bunch of nasty harmonics; essentially creating a layer of white noise, drowning out any definition and/or power from a guitar track. First of all, you need to turn that shit knob to the left. Not to the right.

Got me? Good.

Now review here with me:

1) Ditch the Fisher Price amp pedal. Donate it to some long-haired crackhead with tinitis for Christmas.

2) Use only the knob marked "Gain" for distortion, coupled with a generous amount of master volume (wear hearing protection, because things will get loud). Now, once you get the gain exactly where your guitar player likes it ... when he's not looking, go in there and turn it down until he complains. Once he complains that it's not enough ... then it's perfect.

3) Ditch the suck knob (the one with the dreaded "P" word on it). If you need more presence, then try switching pickups, turning down the bass, or, (Gasp!) try turning up the mids just a hair -- it's not going to kill anyone. As with the gain ... once your guitar player complains that he wants more presence ... turn it down some more until he hates it ... and you're there.

4) Did I mention to ditch the suck knob? Good. Just making sure.


Now go back and try this again. Report your findings.

.
 
chessrock said:
Ouch.

Just trying to help here, but wow. That's just a big 'ol mess.

Look, for starters, you need to accept the harsh reality that the GT or whatever pedal it is you're using has to go. You'll never get usable distortion out of it.

You need to use the gain of your amp for the distortion ... you need to use it sparingly, and most importantly, you need to completely disengage any "suck" knobs on the amp.

Now I realize this is probably going to be a painful and difficult thing, but I'm familiar with the rectum-fryers ... and I can hear that suck knob from a mile away. What I'm refering to is the one labeled "Presence." You know the knob I'm refering to. And it's all over that example you posted, and it's mucking up that guitar with a bunch of nasty harmonics; essentially creating a layer of white noise, drowning out any definition and/or power from a guitar track. First of all, you need to turn that shit knob to the left. Not to the right.

Got me? Good.

Now review here with me:

1) Ditch the Fisher Price amp pedal. Donate it to some long-haired crackhead with tinitis for Christmas.

2) Use only the knob marked "Gain" for distortion, coupled with a generous amount of master volume (wear hearing protection, because things will get loud). Now, once you get the gain exactly where your guitar player likes it ... when he's not looking, go in there and turn it down until he complains. Once he complains that it's not enough ... then it's perfect.

3) Ditch the suck knob (the one with the dreaded "P" word on it). If you need more presence, then try switching pickups, turning down the bass, or, (Gasp!) try turning up the mids just a hair -- it's not going to kill anyone. As with the gain ... once your guitar player complains that he wants more presence ... turn it down some more until he hates it ... and you're there.

4) Did I mention to ditch the suck knob? Good. Just making sure.


Now go back and try this again. Report your findings.

.
Click to expand...
Yeah I kinda thought that I wouldn't get decent results from a GT6 pedal. Glad you cleared that one up for me.
I recorded my Marshall last night using only amp distortion.
I had to boost the high end to almost full, and the mids and low to almost nothing. It actually sounds half decent. Its nowhere near as harsh as my old recordings, maybe a bit more upfront sounding. Maybe a tad thin but I think my amp is feked.
It has to be feked if I can only get a half un-muddy recording with the low and the mids almost at 0, and the high at full.

btw Im using a PRS McCarty Soapbar on the bridge pickup with tone set to 10, which is a pretty cutting guitar so its not the guitar making the tone muddy. I think I need new speakers and tubes.

Cheers,
Eck
 
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