Disassembling FATAR keyboard to clean - Help!

[dipole]

Hi.

Before I made the original post I tried with the top C and the tab broke. Luckily the spring and the front key stop hold the key firmly.

A few minutes ago (before I saw your post) I tried again and then managed to get one key out. The rest then had more space to wiggle and came out more easily (with no more broken tabs ).

The screwdriver just got in the shot I used a smaller/flater one.

Also some of the weights have micro cracks (a few white keys, black keys have a different design so they can't crack as easily).

Thanks for the reply, here are a few more pics.

 

[JaydeeMtl]

Hi.

Before I made the original post I tried with the top C and the tab broke. Luckily the spring and the front key stop hold the key firmly.

A few minutes ago (before I saw your post) I tried again and then managed to get one key out. The rest then had more space to wiggle and came out more easily (with no more broken tabs ).

The screwdriver just got in the shot I used a smaller/flater one.

Also some of the weights have micro cracks (a few white keys, black keys have a different design so they can't crack as easily).

Thanks for the reply, here are a few more pics.

Glad you were able to get the keys off. Those keys do look quite messy!!

Good polymer glue should fix the cracking weights


John

 

[marcianus]

Is possible to replace and old fatar tp10 (k2500X) with a new fatar tp40wood?

Are they compatible?

thanks in advance

 

[K2600User]

Is possible to replace and old fatar tp10 (k2500X) with a new fatar tp40wood?

Are they compatible?

thanks in advance

Hi! I'm sorry I'm late to this, but I'll reply anyway. To answer your question, the actions are compatible physically, but not electrically. Meaning - it will "mostly" work, but keyboards using the TP10 (like the K2500X and K2600X) have different velocity mapping than those using the TP40 (like the PC3X). The result will be mismatched velocity outputs between black and white keys. Now, maybe just MAYBE you can put the TP10 sensor PCB in the TP40 and have it work, but I literally have no idea. I know that the sensor PCB is pretty much the same throughout FATAR actions, but the TP40 is so new that I really don't know.

Now I have a question!!

I recently bought a later model K2500XS which uses the same "slightly improved" action that my K2600X uses. I have zero problems with my K2600X, and in fact, the K2500XS has no cracks on the weights as well. So mechanically, things look good. Unfortunately, the K2500XS has a very sluggish-feeling action. I applied Vaseline to the felt strips on the hammers, and vacuumed everything out. All the weights move freely, but I still have this sluggish feeling. Especially when the keys are hit at any kind of angle. It actually feels like there is excessive rubbing on the rubber keyguides under the front lip of the keys.

Does anyone have any advice on fixing this? It seems relatively minor, but I'm scratching my head trying to fix it. I'm going to disassemble the board again to see if the key frame is bent, but I didn't note any abnormalities last time I was in there.

Thanks!

Les

 

[Toddskins]

'Been a long time since I've logged in here, and want to say "Thanks and you're all welcome" for your comments. Hal (guy from Germany), I have not a clue on your issue. Sounds like it's not an easy maintenance issue. 'Dont' envy your dilemma.

A couple other posters in the last 9 months, too, seemed to have issues that defy normal logic. Sorry I cannot figure out a suggestion for a couple of you, either.

Great that all you guys keep this thead alive for the globe.

Especial thanks to JayDeeMtl (John).

 

[axisrecording]

Pick the correct screws to take out




I learned the hard way which screws to take out - the small ones that are inset on the side will allow you to open up the case on it's hinges the proper way.

 

[Skittles]

Anyone needing to dampen vibrations might want to check out sorbothane. Also, I wanted to share that of all the lubricants I've tried on my fatar action, the one that clearly works best is SailKote dry PTFE lubricant. It's worth what they charge for it - amazing stuff.

I have a PC2x and am having problems with false triggers on the pads and when using the pedal. The diodes test ok and I have replacement pads in there. I have the kfp1 pedal and it was giving me problems even after cleaning it so I switched to a different pedal. Most of the pedal glitching went away but not all of it. It does seem to be related to the pads now though - that is, the pedal glitching is now isolated to a particular octave or so.

I'd like it if I could use this board for performance but right now it's too glitchy. Aside from replacing the sensor board...any ideas? Seems like it has to do with the carbon and the capacitive sensors but I'm not sure.

 

[cabinneighbor]

Hey everyone! so i have read threw this forum. so good, but i just wanted to make sure that this is what i need to do before i order them. So there are 18 notes in all that are not sending any midi signal It is strange to me that they are grouped in between perfect 5ths so i am thinking that what ever component groups them together is broken. the notes that aren't working are F3, F#3, G3, G#3, A4, A#4, B4, C4 and A7, A#7, B7, C7, C#7, D7, D#7, D#7, E7 i am thinking of getting some new contacts
Is there any other reason that these groups of notes are not signaling?

 

[JaydeeMtl]

Hey everyone! so i have read threw this forum. so good, but i just wanted to make sure that this is what i need to do before i order them. So there are 18 notes in all that are not sending any midi signal It is strange to me that they are grouped in between perfect 5ths so i am thinking that what ever component groups them together is broken. the notes that aren't working are F3, F#3, G3, G#3, A4, A#4, B4, C4 and A7, A#7, B7, C7, C#7, D7, D#7, D#7, E7 i am thinking of getting some new contacts.
Is there any other reason that these groups of notes are not signaling?

Hi CabinNeighbor,

Sorry to answer so late, I hope I can still be of some help.

This sounds like a connection or component problem, unless someone spilled a drink near F3 to C4 then A7 to E7 You could try opening the board then re-seating all the connectors for the keybed. If that failed, carefully inspect the contact pc-boards - cold solder joints, cracks, etc.; re-test then if that fails, check out all the diodes with a multimeter.

Be aware that there are different length contact strips along the whole keybed, so you need to order the correct one. I would actually replace all of them, not just a strip or two.

While you have the board open, may as well vacuum out the bits and pieces.

John

 

[cabinneighbor]

Yeah i replaced the contacts on the notes that where not working... they still don't signal. Thanks, I am going to try all those things you mentioned. I still need to Learn how to use a multimeter more, I have an analog one, hope it works.

 

[cabinneighbor]

I am wondering why i would want to replace all the contacts if most of them are working

 

[cabinneighbor]

Ok so i checked all diodes and the solder points looked good. Here is a breakdown of what is going on drawn on the schematic
any ideas coming up from this? Where can i find a schematic for the board that the ribbons are connected to. The keyboard i have is a studiologic sl-990 pro.

 

[JaydeeMtl]

Ok so i checked all diodes and the solder points looked good. Here is a breakdown of what is going on drawn on the schematicView attachment 78453
any ideas coming up from this? Where can i find a schematic for the board that the ribbons are connected to. The keyboard i have is a studiologic sl-990 pro.

Hi CabinNeighbor,

Wow, good job on the tracing and ID on the schematic!

I surmise the trouble may be further up the chain, like somewhere in the row/column scanner electronics perhaps. if you can power up the keyboard when it is opened up like it is, I would take a small wire jumper to where the problem area is on the input conenctor to where the keybed attaches, and simulate some of the dead keys being pressed. This would confirm if some chips or other stuff is not working. I'd also look at that board for solder joint problems, press on any IC's that are socketed - some pins may have become oxidized and no longer making contact.

If you have an oscilloscope (or, a logic probe would probably do), you could also check what's going on when you press keys - reconnect the keybed, power up the keyboard, find a reference ground on that PCboard and start probing the input pins of the IC that manage the keys as you press working and non working keys. Note the differences in signals shown. Ideas -> Pull-up resistor problems for those rows/cols not working, bad contacts along the signal path, maybe the scan chips gone bad... get the chip's pinout and verify the output pins as you press some keys, etc. Possibly a binary encoded output, some output bit(s) not outputting... Make sure the chip is getting a clock signal - I guess it would be since some keys do work.

Resourceful as you seem to be, you're probably doing all of this already

Without the entire schematic it is kind of hard to tell from where I am but above are some things to check - will keep you busy for a little while. If you can send me the schematic, I could look beyond the keybed input and maybe offer some suggestions.

John

 

[Skittles]

Replaced board

I ended up replacing the sensor board. The MIDI Store sent one but it wasn't packed very well and the box appeared to have been crushed in transit - the board snapped in half. They were *very* helpful and quick to send another (properly packed) with a return label. I installed it yesterday and my board's like new again.

I have a PC2x and am having problems with false triggers on the pads and when using the pedal. The diodes test ok and I have replacement pads in there. I have the kfp1 pedal and it was giving me problems even after cleaning it so I switched to a different pedal. Most of the pedal glitching went away but not all of it. It does seem to be related to the pads now though - that is, the pedal glitching is now isolated to a particular octave or so.

I'd like it if I could use this board for performance but right now it's too glitchy. Aside from replacing the sensor board...any ideas? Seems like it has to do with the carbon and the capacitive sensors but I'm not sure.

 

[ronsonjonson]

What an amazing thread! Here's hoping it's not too late to ask another question from all the experts. I've got a K2500XS and just one key, A3, sticks ever so slightly when first pressed (after having sat for a couple of hours). Just to be clear: it sticks at the beginning of key travel, not at the end. After that it's OK. But it eventually gets a bit sticky again. I have to take the beast apart to replace the fan anyhow (with a low-noise version) and would happily address this problem with A3 if it seemed doable. Any advice as to which of these various repairs here applies?

Many thanks
Andrew

 

[JaydeeMtl]

Hi Everyone,

This is an update to the original thread, now well over 2 years old. I'm happy to report that over those years, my original repair of the keybed seems to have held up very well. The "JB Weld" glue that I used has worked quite well and is still holding all the cracked nylon that I fixed with it. Its time to revisit the repair anyways, one key is starting to get noisy and feels like its weight is half broken so it will be a good occasion to take some new pics of all those parts to really validate just how well they are holding up!

On a happy note, someone just dropped off a complete Fatar keybed and a whole lot of spare weights; all for the modest sum of 50$ Candian$ so I'm now assured of safe and available spares close at hand. I did buy a Kurzweil PC3X (used) last year and enjoy it immensely but somehow I still love the feel of that old K2500XS and so, keep returning to play it regularly.

John

 

[dapit]

Hello All,
First, thank you all for this thread !! I was able to disassemble an old SL880 perfectly !

Every thing is in working order but i found that some plastic supporting the key was a bit cracked inside on some black keys(blue plastic, check the pictures),.

I'm wondering if that's something i should be worried about? Sometimes some keys makes some noise... Is this something i can replace?
The keybed is a FATAR TP20



Thank you all!

 

[JaydeeMtl]

Hi Dapit,

Sorry for rather late reply, you might already have figured out everything I'm about to describe but here goes anyways. I've not worked on a TP20 before but by the looks of the pictures, that blue coloured plastic (looks like nylon) is the weight encapsulation that is cracking - same phenomenon as the lead weights we have talked about throughout this thread before. By the limited view afforded by the pics, I am seeing that the plastic part of the weight is resting on a retaining/supporting rod that is the pivot point for the weights. I'm inclined to conclude that, just like the older keybeds, this plastic will eventually break and the weight will fall off.

I would definitely change those cracked plastic parts or barring that, repair them with nylon compatible glue.

For disassembly and in order to be able to remove individual weights for inspection & repair, it would also appear that all you need to do now is to pull the retaining rod(s) out (being careful never to bend it). Inspect ALL those weights with a good magnifier glass and repair or replace the cracked ones. Remove any grease or other lubricant before applying glue to ensure it sticks properly. Don't use just any ole glue - you need a polymer glue if those parts are nylon; any other glue won't work & won't last. If you have to put any glue on the outside of the part, make sure it doesn't thicken the assembly too much! Might be helpful to read the entire thread for some tips on how to do a good repair and glue application.

I hope this helps.

John

 

[scifilovestory]

Cabinneighbor,
Were you able to get the keybed working? I've got a dead C5. Interesting that it is on the right board but belongs to the left board's cable. I'm going to try soldering new wires between the halves on mine. I did a lot of twisting when I was cleaning.

 

[fenboatman]

7 years on and this is still a valuable thread. I followed the instructions by Toddskins and cleaned the contacts for a faulty key on my Fatar SL-880 keyboard and it now works perfectly. Thanks!