Dependancy, mediocratey and evolution.

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Who said your opinions are disgusting? My concern is the fact that you think so lowly of your music. Music is an art, yes, music is fun, very much so, but most importantly: music is a reflection of yourself. Unless your trying to make money out of your music, it's impossible to make a bad song. Why? It's opinion based. Someone will like your song, even if you might not. "Best songwriter ever"? How can you measure that? By financial success? You don't need to be skilled as a song writer to make money. Do I care if I'm ever on the charts? No. The only thing that makes a song popular is the fact that the general population can relate to it. I would feel much more comfortable knowing that my music is a direct reflection of me. If only a handful of people can relate to it, cool. I would feel comfortable knowing that my music reaches a unique and elite group of people. The average person is just that anyway: average. What do I care if they like my music or not?

I apologize if my remark seemed like a personal attack on you. I just don't think it's cool to think lowly of your music. If you are trying to make money with your music, and all you can produce is "crap", than the "business" just wasn't made for you - that doesn't it's "crap" though. Anyway, thanks for going easy on me. Heh, that could have probably been a lot more bitter coming from someone else. It's cool that you were so mellow about it.
 
I just finished listening to a tape I receivied today by one of my favorite songwriters, Townes Van Zandt, titled "Rear View Mirror". It's a collection of songs from live performances over a period of time. On several of the songs post-performance orchestration, and in some cases, fiddle have been added to "spice things up", I guess. Some of it's tastefully done and a couple are downright terrible.

I guess that's what I was trying to get to in my initial post. To me it's not so much a question of over production, but maybe, tasteful production. I'm sure that the producer who added strings to some of Van Zandt's songs on this album wanted to liven things up a bit so as not to have a whole album of a guy singing and playing his acoustic guitar. I can appreciate that; I just wish he or she had used a little more discretion.

To me production goes by the same rules as songwriting and performance. Does it help or hinder the song? Good lyrics are sometimes measured by what the songwriter chose not to say rather than what he could say, just as a musiciian may choose to play a grace note or back off of a solo if it helps the song.

I know all of this is very subjective stuff, but it seems like more and more I run into co-writers, musicians and producers who are more concerned with themselves than the song. Everyone wants to get their licks in, whether they are appropriate or not.
 
Everyone wants to get their licks in, whether they are appropriate or not.


The most profound thing I've learned while playing with others is to SHUT UP unless the music tells you otherwise. I really try and pay attention to what the song needs and not what I think I need. Great point Peter D!!
 
I think the point is getting lost here... or I never knew the point in the first place... :p (that's prolly what it is) :cool:

I don't know if it's so much aboot "artistic expression" or "being true to yourself" or playing music "for the fun of it" or blah blah blah... I thought we were talking about have high standards aboot the music you create. I mean... should we just accept whatever crap we barf out every time we sit down and write, or should we realize that not everything we do is "divinely inspired"... or even deserves to see the light of day. :p Sometimes I'll write cause I'm bored.. or I'll sit down and really wish that I had somethin' cool to write, but nothin' will come, so I'll just barf out some mundane stuff and leave it at that. But regardless, we shouldn't get so near-sighted that we can't see the big picture...... Some songs just plain suck. :D

Now,... I maintain that there are only two types of songs... songs that were "meant" to be written... and songs that weren't. :p The songs that were meant to be written (and this only applies to certain genres,.. obviously not classical music or opera) should sound good if just played with vocals and a git. They should have some kind of "soul" to them or something that just makes you want to hear it again. Having said that... I think that fluff is a good thing... it can turn a song that was meant to be written into a song that you can't imagine having not been written... like those songs that impact you so much that it's almost as if they had always been written... as if whoever wrote them just saw a pre-existing idea, that had been around since the beginning of time, floating around in the air, and put it on paper and translated it to a guitar. Now,.. fluff can also serve to try and disguise a trud as being not so "turdish", but it can never make it into a truly good song.

The quality of the song is in its "soul". The fluff only makes it even better. But if it has no soul,.. then no amount of fluff in the world will change that.

WATYF
 
I was mainly addressing Theron's motto. I used to think the same way until I realized that I could not create the music I wanted on acoustic - I could outline it, but certainly not perform it live. Thinking that way will close a lot of doors for you on a musical level. For one thing, it is very genre based. I think the problem is that you are all basing that on the type of music you may listen to or like. I've been blown away by music consisting of nothing but drums. That means no guitar and no vocals at all. Perhaps some of you may not like that kind of music, but that type of stuff has been around forever. In fact, that type of rhythmic drum music has probably been around before anything else - but I digress. My point is: saying that a song "should sound good if [it is] just played with vocals and a git" is untrue. The #1 song in US right now is "Hot In Here" by Nelly. Go ahead and play it on the acoustic. How does it sound?

Now, I don't know where you got this "divinely inspired" idea from, much less put in quotation marks. Certainly not from me, I don't believe in divine powers. What's more, saying that a song was "meant" to be written is concept a refuse to accept; largely because, as I said, I don't believe in divine or higher powers. (If someone tries to turn this into a theological discussion from this point on don't expect a reply from me.) Further more, the concept of a "soul" is not something viable and largely opinion based. My other point was this: unless your trying to make money with your music (like writing a jingle, nursery rhyme song, etc.) your music can't suck. Music is just a reflection of your thoughts and feelings. On a musical level, it may suck, but that doesn't mean nobody will like it. I don't see how you can say an idea or feeling you expressed sucks. It may not be a commercial hit, but does it have to be? If that's what you mean by "soul" than I agree. Still, just because it doesn't have "soul" doesn't mean it's any good. If your writing a commercial jingle, than who cares if doesn't have soul?

Just go ahead and write your music. Don't worry if your "fluffing it out" or if other people like it - unless you want money for your music, but that's not the point. If you are trying to make money, than I can't help you there.
 
I think it's pretty much implied that we're only talking aboot certain genres... this "motto" obviously won't apply to Rap, Techno (or any Electronica), Classical, Opera, etc. etc... I think the gerenal discussion is aboat genres whose primary instrument is the guitar.. so in other words... if you write a song for a guitar based band,.. and you think is sounds like crap if you just play it by yourself with one git, then chances are that no amount of additional guitars, and lead, and keys, and drums will change the fact that it's just not a very good song.

Obviously, anyone who is a rapper who tries to apply this motto will find themselves not liking any of their songs... :D

And don't get all caught up in my terminology... I put it in quotes for a reason... because I use them as figures of speech. I'm of the opinion that some songs are just the result of a guy who needed a "filler" for an album, or a hobbyist musician who just couldn't think of anything better... and others are the result of true inspiration. I don't see anything wrong with playing for fun and not caring what anyone else thinks... I think that's great... but I do think there is a difference between a song that really has "it" and one that doesn't. Not that I can concretely define "it" for you, but that's just the way I see music.

WATYF
 
I'm glad that you also think that it's genre dependent. Even though it may implied in the motto, if you read through the thread you'll notice that people have said that it isn't genre dependent. My argument is with them.

As for songs having "it". Well, my advice is not to worry about it too much. Just have fun with what you're writing. It's not too easy judging a song's success. It may be well written and with out any "fluff" but could never be a commercial hit. Than again, it could a piece of crap and people could love it. "It" is a matter of opinion. Can you dislike the songs you write? Sure, I have. That's when I realized that I shouldn't write songs that I think other people might like. That was my problem, and still is, sometimes I find myself writing for others rather than for me. Not until I started writing for myself did I become satisfied with my work.
 
Well by "it" I don't really mean "commercial success", because, yes, plenty of really crappy songs have been big hits.. :p but I know of plenty of songs which are absolutely amazing that most people here (if not all) wouldn't even recognize if they heard it.

Like I said,.. my opinion is based on an overall view of music. Some songs were meant to be written,.. and some songs just "are". When I write... I don't do it for "fun"... I mean... it is "fun" sometimes... but sometimes it's hard work... it's tough coming up with something that I like... but you're right... I'm not really worried aboot what other people are giong to think aboat it... (as you shouldn't be) I think my point earlier, though, was that we should set our own standards high, so that you know if you like a song, then it has a level of "appeal" to it which will most likely translate to other people. In fact... my standards are so high that most of the time other people like my songs much more than I do. (and no, these aren't well-meaning friends who don't want to hurt my feelings.. :p ) but I guess that's how it should be... that way it keeps you sharp... keeps you from writing just "whatever comes out" regardless of how bad it is.

WATYF
 
I suppose I really don't understand the concept of song being "meant" to be written, that's just really beyond me. As far as standards, the only thing that makes song successful is the ability to relate to it. Standards don't really have anything to do with it. I suppose when you write your music the best approach would be asking yourself: Who's this for? Me? The masses? I suppose you can base your standards on that.
 
Good debate here ...

Going back to Theron's original post, he said that the song needs to stand on it's own two legs using the bare minimum...I think the quote was something relating to the song sounding good with just the vocals and guitar "because that is what I write with"

I have to agree with Theron here, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a guitar.

The same might be said for using just a piano, or maybe a bass (who knows), or maybe even just drums. The point is that very rarely is a song written using five or six instruments. I know that there are exceptions in a band setting, but even then most times there is someone who wrote the song alone using whatever instrument they used before they presented it to the band.

Sometimes songs get written on just a guitar and then sound better using a different instrument as the main, and sometimes not. It may just have to do with tone and dynamics in some cases.

Now this is definitely genre based. I have never written a dance song, but if I did I would probably use some type of synth with a preprogrammed beat over it and go from there. That would be my main instrument of choice (excuse my ignorance if this is not how most dance tracks are written ... just an example here)

Anyway, -- imo --the main thing is that the song should sound good using just the instrument that it was written on. It may sound better on another instrument, or it may not, but it should be presentable on the original instrument. Sometimes this will be all the song needs, and sometimes the song will need a boost and that is where multi-tracking comes in. Kind of like painting the foundation colors and then adding more colors to the audio pallette.

Also, I just need to make a quick comment: I believe that every musician at some point has probably written a bad (or in my case, probably a lot of bad) songs ... But this is what sometimes keeps me going...That is not to say that others will think it's bad or good, just that I think I can do better, so I call it "bad" ... also, songs that are "meant to be" to me are songs that are stuck in your head and itching to get out, while songs that are forced are songs that you sit down, have absolutely nothing in your head, and just start to reach...

Anyway, just my $.02 ...
 
I think I'll have to agree with you. I appreciate your points and I think you made them clearly.
I guess what I was trying to tell Theron is, just because it doesn't sound good "standing alone" doesn't mean there's no hope for it. You shouldn't be afraid to "fluff" it out, it may very well be your most "succesful" song ever. Even so, if you can't make it sound good, keep it around. Maybe you can sell it to someone else. Afterall, it's till your song - if some one one else wants to pay for it, why not?
 
boydrj said:
also, songs that are "meant to be" to me are songs that are stuck in your head and itching to get out, while songs that are forced are songs that you sit down, have absolutely nothing in your head, and just start to reach...
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This is almost exactly what I meant... :p thanks for clarifying for me... :)

Basically, IMNSHO ;) there is such a thing as "true" inspiration... like boydrj said, it's inside you just dying to get out, and some songs are a result of that. But other songs are the result of a "lesser" source.. such as "need".. (i.e. "filler" songs for an album).. or "boredom", as I said earlier, like someone who sits down and really wants to write a song, but nothing comes out, so they just settle for whatever generic music/lyrics they can burp out. :p

There are always exception to every rule... don't get me wrong... sometimes the best songs are made by accident, and don't show their true colors for years. Also,.. I agree that a song may sound better on a different instrument then it was written on. I have a song that was written on guitar that sounds much better on piano, and it will probably be recorded on piano when it is "finished"... etc. etc. etc. I don't think there is such a thing as an "absolute" rule when it comes to songwriting.. I'm just espousing my general, overall views on the topic.

WATYF
 
I read your original post. You have an affliction called "Nugearitis".

I get this too when a new piece of gear is purchased. I sometimes want to whip out a song so fast just to use the new piece of equipment to hear how it sounds.

Usually the equipment will sound great and the song will suck wind. It is very tempting to just record anything you write down that happens to sound good at the moment. It really doesn't matter in my case what instument I've written it on, either piano or guitar. All I want to do is get a track layed.

Will power and writing a good tune before recording is the only treatment.
 
Oh , I get "nugearitis"...kinda. When I learn somethign new I just grab my guitar and start playing - I don't really think about writing anything, but I'm eager to try out the new stuff. That's not bad is it?
 
Forte said:
I suppose when you write your music the best approach would be asking yourself: Who's this for? Me? The masses? I suppose you can base your standards on that.
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IMHO..It should be for you first..The song should be true/honest to you , if it is then others will connect{we all share common experiences}..Otherwise why would we be treadin' on the same song topics so often.Sucsess is if one person is moved,you've done your job!If you want to reach the masses the same principal should apply,just more folks hear it..

Don
 
Some people don't write music for themselves. There are some writers who just write music based on the principles and formulas used in creating popular music. If your wiriting a jingle for example, your goal is probably to make something catchy that will stick in your head. Just make sure though, you know for who your doing it. There's nothing wrong with writing a song that's purpose is just to appease other people's taste, but the approach is different than a song where your trying to express your inner most feelings - it's important to have this awareness.
 
Oh , I get "nugearitis"...kinda. When I learn somethign new I just grab my guitar and start playing - I don't really think about writing anything, but I'm eager to try out the new stuff. That's not bad is it?
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No. It's not really bad, it's just time wasted that could have been spent on creating a really good song instead of rolling the tape on something that might not be worth recording.

I have to fight myself sometimes to keep from doing it. I still do it sometimes though. If I have to, Ill just sit at the piano and record a cover instead of wasting the time to write something crappy.
 
Henri Devill said:


IMHO..It should be for you first..The song should be true/honest to you , if it is then others will connect{we all share common experiences}..Otherwise why would we be treadin' on the same song topics so often.Sucsess is if one person is moved,you've done your job!If you want to reach the masses the same principal should apply,just more folks hear it..

Don
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Well hell Don,

I can't help but agree with that:). I wasn't even worried about the outside forces of how to write and why. Isn't it enough to have the power to make your own "monsters" real?!?.. Damn me if I'll consider the desires of others "monsters" too. And, you're right. If the song is decently written and described from a common emotional element, then someone will feel and relate to what you're saying. Just be careful not to "pre-suppose" the writing by using a bunch of "tools" or you will become the TOOL.

Not personal, just trying to tag back the original post.

Nice insight Don!!

Theron.
 
Forte said:
Some people don't write music for themselves. There are some writers who just write music based on the principles and formulas used in creating popular music. If your wiriting a jingle for example, your goal is probably to make something catchy that will stick in your head. Just make sure though, you know for who your doing it. There's nothing wrong with writing a song that's purpose is just to appease other people's taste, but the approach is different than a song where your trying to express your inner most feelings - it's important to have this awareness.
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The same concern applies.
Many Moons ago, I co-wrote and engineered radio ads. I didn't get too many to air but:)............
You still can't just use sound effects, killer music beds and huge volume to compensate for good copy (i.e. writting).
To say what you want to say in a concise and pleasing manner rides above production and resides in the core of quality. No?

I'm not disputing your point. I'm trying to capitalize it.

theron.
 
Wasted time? Is that all? Pah, I'm not worried. When don't I waste time? Anyway, I get enjoyment of playing around with new equipment and not taking it seriously.

Your right Theron, no amount of studio production can compensate for a bad song. Regardless of how, or for who, if you can't make it work out the studio, you probably wont be able tomake it work in the studio.
 
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