Cymbals phasing problems

[Myriad_Rocker]

Hey guys, what's up? Slight problem over here...

My right and left cymbals are creating a phasing effect. The only time they're not phasing is when I pan them hard left and right. If I have them both up the center, there's quite a large phase effect.

Any ideas?

 

[fenix]

use xy or get a bigger room or hard pan

 

[Farview]

You must be mic'ing the cymbals individually. Just set up some x/y overheads and you will be fine.

 

[Middleman]

First, remember the 3 to 1 rule when using overhead mics. 1 is the distance from the mic to the source, in this case your cymbals. Take this distance times 3 and that is how far apart your mics should be.

One fix you could try is to phase invert either the left or right track if you are not going to hard pan the tracks. That said, most people do hard pan the overheads, not always but generally.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

I tried phase inverting one and it didn't work. I still got some phasing on the tracks.

I think I'll just hard pan them. Or I could just re-record them. I did another drum tracking today and I didn't come out with any phasing issues on cymbals at all.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

What's an xy overhead pattern by the way?

 

[Farview]

That is when you have the diaphragms of both mics in the same spot, just pointing in different directions. Normally at 110 degree angle to one another. this way, the sound reaches both mics at the same time. There won't be any phasing due to timing issues. You still get the stereo spread because they are pointing different ways.

 

[tmix]

Sometimes when you think you are getting phasing issues, it may actually be that your cymbal mics are too close to the edge of the cymbal. As the cymbal is struck and is swinging around, it will make swirling phasing sounds as the frequncies come off the edge of the cymbal while the cymbal is moving up and down across the close range of the mic diaphram.

It was my problem anyway until I either moved the mics above or below the same level as the cymbals.

Tom

 

[Farview]

They call them 'over heads' for a reason. Get them up in the air. He is right, the sound of a cymbal goes up and down. The edge of a cymbal is a null point, and when they swing around, so does the null. Close micing cymbals is a pain and just plain silly.

 

[drummersteve]

anyone know of any good reading articles about different micing techniques? i know about xy but i remember reading about more somewhere? thanks alot.

Steve

 

[riantide]

I would say hard pan them anyway. I've always thought that's kind of what they're there for, to help create a stereo image of your kit. Phase discrepancies between R and L can create cool textures, too; just make sure to check your mono mix to make sure stuff isn't disappearing entirely!

For x/y, think of a graph, with it's X and Y axes. Each mic should be lined up along one of those two axes. The diaphragms of the mics should be right next to each other, pointing perpendicular to each other, with the sound source right between them. Someone explain it better, I don't think I'm making any sense.

*edit* here's a link to a German website with an illustration of an x/y pattern:

http://www.studiorent.de/Neue_Dateien/Stereo.html

Also try Harvey's "two stick" technique, it's golden.

 

[drummersteve]

thanks guys. cud you explain the concept of phasing a bit more to me? like how does it occur (technically) n what kind of sound/effect does it produce when it happens, and how do people usually create this problem. by that i mean describe a scenario where it would happen! if you could do that id be very appreciative. cheers.

Steve

 

[xstatic]

If you are using a DAW, you may be able to shift one of the overhead tracks over one way or the other by just a few samples. It may help, it may not.

Many people choose not to hard pan cymbals. If you are trying to create an accurate realistic image, har panning makes the drum kit sound wider than any other point in the mix. Some people love that effect, some don't.

Wouldn't an X and Y axis split mean the diaphragms were at 90 degrees?

 

[Farview]

Wouldn't an X and Y axis split mean the diaphragms were at 90 degrees?

It depends on the effect you are going for.

 

[Farview]

thanks guys. cud you explain the concept of phasing a bit more to me? like how does it occur (technically) n what kind of sound/effect does it produce when it happens, and how do people usually create this problem. by that i mean describe a scenario where it would happen! if you could do that id be very appreciative. cheers.

Steve

Phasing happens when the same sound hits 2 (or more) mics at slightly different times. It produces a sound kind of like a chorus that doesn't sweep. Most of the time it is caused by careless mic placement. If you mic up a speaker cab with 2 mics and one mic is 2 inches closer than the other, if you pan both of them center, you will notice that the volume decreases and it sounds hollow. That is phase cancelation.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Phase cancellation....I did that once and didn't know I had done it....I was like, WHAT THE CRAP HAPPENED!

Then I woke up.