Crawdad, Erichenryus and Lt. Bob Collab

  • Thread starter Thread starter crawdad
  • Start date Start date
Chrisharris--you are gonna like that book! Its like mixing fundamentals for songwriters if you know what I mean.

And--I'm glad you aren't me--cause if you were--who would I be? Voxvendor?

Speaking of...

Voxvendor--thank you for that vote of confidence. You are, in my estimation, one of the pillars of the whole forum. Just a joke (above). A way of making a transition, so to speak.

What I mean is- you and your thoughts and comments are a valuable part of this whole board and this forum. I follow what you say and appreciate your views a lot.

Gee, I hope I don't have to do a version 5! But I will, if thats what it takes!
 
Kramer said:

I dont think people realize how experimental this thing is.You guys are paving new highways for the rest of us!
Click to expand...

Thanks Kramer for noticing that. When I first starting hanging out here, there weren't any collaborations being done at all except for an occassional tune where someone would just stick his tracks onto someone else's Mp3. Now the 2-person collabs are getting fairly common. So this is moving ahead pretty rapidly. The big thing is that we're learning how to get files into each others' machines regardless of platform and that's critical since everyone uses all different types of recording gear.

The next step is obvious; doing the same thing with multiple players. crawdad's tune used three players and I have a few tunes in the pipeline that will use 5 or 6 players. They're a month or two off but I'm in the early stages right now. It shouldn't surprise anyone that complications and problems will arise. it's always that way with something new but we will figure this out and make it available to us all. And then won't things be exciting? All the people who you've come to know and respect will people you can play music with......even if they live on the other side of the world. And although just sticking something on someone else's Mp3 works, clearly that's not an ideal way to do it. The mixing options become minimal or even non-existant and the originator of the song has little control of what is done with his song. For example, he can't pick and choose between tracks as guernica did on our latest collab. He can't control the EQ on the tracks that someone adds to his tune. He can't even control how loud the new tracks are.

And then if you want to use multiple players the problems grow. You end up with multiple wave to Mp3 conversions. And the mixing problems get more out of control with each addition to the tune as subsequent players add their tracks to the previously recorded parts.

So in closing, ladies and gentlemen of the jury....... this is an extremely exciting and important thing that's happening here in our clinic. Personally I believe that a year from now, we will all look back on these early days of collabs as a point when our ideas of how to make music together changed a good bit and I'm very glad to be here for it. Sure....there will be problems and setbacks......but we'll get there because of our common love of music and willingness to experiment and grow.

(Hey....everyone else got on the soapbox....figured it was my turn) :D
 
...Yeah, what they said!!!!:D

...I am also excited about the possibility of being able to truly collaborate in the purest sense of the word..... the ability to be able to write music together. This would entail being able to transfer files and communicate during the writing in a way that would allow musicians to "virtually" create as if they were sitting right next to each other. Imagine it, a song "written" by different combinations of our peers from totally different backgrounds....... ........very cool indeed. Im digging your "Virtual Band" Idea Lt..... an online band. .....also very cool.
....there are no limits once we set our minds to it, and discover the means of making this all possible. Someday, the greatest music in the world may be created by guys sitting in their little home studios, .....all part of a network that allows fast access to creative freedom and creativity like we've never seen before. .....yes indeed.

Homerec'in.......... thats what Im talkin about!


a very excited G:D
 
Something to this effect might have been said above but...

When doing these collabs, try not to rely too much on the machines locking up, and everything falling into the click track....

Drag the stuff around by ear.....

Thats what I do.. I never bother with the sync and snapping to grid etc... I just drag it....



I would like to make an offer....

If you send me a click track, and then all the drums.. I will drag yes, one by one, hit by hit.... them around and put them into time for you... It's one of my specialties, and you wouldn't have to re-record them.....


I would even like to try and mix this for you... Even if you don't end up using my mix...

You'll at least have another angle of sound for the song...

Anyways.. Just an Idea
 
Re: Something to this effect might have been said above but...

VOXVENDOR said:
When doing these collabs, try not to rely too much on the machines locking up, and everything falling into the click track....B]
Click to expand...



I agree with that statement 100%..






With all due respect to everyone on this thread, I need to get a few more things said..





crawdad - I respectfully disagree with some your responses to me.. (ie Blue Bear etc.) Look up some of his clinic posts and you will see what I mean.. Sometimes he shows mercy, but other times he rips harder than anyone I have ever seen.. I enjoy reading his posts very much sometimes... He will rip people sometimes, but that is the bluntness that is sometimes needed.. Sorry I got off topic earlier, I thought it would break up some tension..


I have nothing against erichenryus.. It seems the problem was on your end, and that's cool that it's been figured out....


I personally won't let anyone mix my parts.. I am one of those that will continue with the way of adding tracks to a high quality mp3.. IMHOP it is not so much how it's done, but who is doing it.. I think it is absolutely possible to get a better sound adding tracks to a high quality mp3.. as opposed to someone having all the tracks etc.. Like giving someone enough rope to hang themselves..


I guess fewer people will want to collaborate with me, but the ones who do will understand..


My attitude is, you do your parts well, I'll do mine, keep the mp3's high quality, post mixes for the others to hear as you go, and there will be no problem.. I am sure I can get a sound doing it this way, that is comparable to what others will do the other way.. and for *me*, it is easier, quicker, and less of a chance for something like this to happen..


I'm sure the other way will work great for some..


I also want to add that I will watch what I say on certain peoples threads from here on in.. It seems if you put things the wrong way, it can change the whole subject of the thread.. I would say it is certainly not being too picky to say these drums are off for whatever reason.. It is obvious..


Just about everyone on this thread are great at what they do, and I have much respect for all of you..


I just have different opinions about certain things..



You guys rule! Now try not to flame me too hard.. :D





much love! :)





sincerely, the most hated man in the clinic,
Sam
 
Sorry crawdad...mybad?

oh my, such high drama in the mp3 mixing clinic while i was away! we're starting to sound like a family!

i was out of town this weekend and logged in from a remote computer last night where i didn't have access to listen, saw that first response, and.......

lmfao! Kjam22, really no offense taken and i'll check out your tunes when i get a chance, but until then my feedback is that you should burn your drummer alive :D....just kidding.

read a little further and found what classy guys lt. bob and crawdad are in addition to being such pro musicians.......

read a little further to find there are a lot of really helpful and concerned people around here who all have the same idea of a 'clinic' that i do....point out the flaws....offer your advice....move on.... (the first point being the most important, no matter how you say it)

read a little further and thought i wound up in another thread on smoking weed......

read further and hit on VOXVENDOR's post and thought......DAMN, he's right. It's that snare that sound that i messed with that sounds late all the time!

So, thanks to crawdad for trying to take the blame but I think IT's MY FAULT! I am definitely still learning to use the technology in play and most days I want to chuck the pc (get a dat recorder) and chuck the v-kit (get a real kit and real mics and a soundproof room)...but I have the same online collab dream as you all so give me a chance to roll up my sleeves on this...

For those who wanna know, here's my untested diagnosis that i'll check out once i get home in front of the hunk of metal that i swear at all the time.....

the snare is a combination of the td-8 and a soft sampled snare from the kontakt library. the kontakt snare is what gives the snare it's 'crack' and i suspect that's where the latency is and why crawdad can't 'see' it on the screen, cause the td-8 component of the snare is on but then the crack hits late and that's why it's so obvious. bass drum most likely has the same problem, but no one mentioned it I don't think.

phasy cymbals and such are 128 bit mp3 encoding i suspect.

btw, love the song. lt. bob really expanded this. can't comment further cause i'm fixated on the drum problem.
 
one more thing

all things aside,

the main reason it's my fault is cause i didn't double check the individual tracks before i shipped them out the door. i just 'trusted' my technology. note to self.....

thanks again crawdad for letting me tag along. we'll get this fixed up.
 
Man, got a platefull of goodies to digest here...was able to stream the first one, then connection got screwy so I downloaded the next three.

Ain't Goin Back Again: The collab is cool for an already-cool song. Had I not read the other posts, I'd have thought you were going for a Memphis/Cropper-type sound, with rhythm section just a pubic hair behind the beat. But now I understand what happened, and am confident you'll get it where you want it. You already know how much I dig this track.

Handgun: Well-told story, plays out like a movie. I like the way it comes full-circle. This one and the next two work very well together, I dig what you're doing with r&b.

I've Got Trouble: As mentioned, I'm looking at these three as part of a set, or lp. Getting very cool R. Cray vibes. As usual, singing and guitar work just knock me out. I especially like the clean guitars, and the delta riffs.

I Need A Good Woman Bad: Very cool twist in the title, strong lyrics (no surprise there) and excellent performance. You leave very little to criticize, my man. I'm really digging the way you're taking things down to a roots feel, which in my mind is always tougher than it sounds.
Great stuff, Al.

p.s. I've been chugging away at some incredible pop, but it keeps ending up like inedible slop. Might have to just go back to my own roots. I'll be in touch, keep a lamp burnin'.

Mark
 
I've heard this one before, great tune ... and great colab ... there is too much on this thread already :) ... just wanted to say I listened and I care ...
cheers
 
ok, I'm listening to other new ones ... crawdad very cool ... did you go back to midi drums ? ... sounds realy tight to me...
 
B. Sabbath--I understand your method and why you like to do things the way you do. I figure there aren't any rules as to how a collaboation is to be done, other than the agreement between the parties.

My method incorporates some of that. I think like a producer who just asks the best of the players. I have asked for changes before. And I have also been asked to make changes. I look at it this way. I'm trying to find synery and I like multiple points of view. In the end, if everybody involved is happy, then thats a pretty good indication that the musical goals were achieved.

There is no right or wrong though. Its music and everybody creates in a unique way. Just want to make sure I'm making that clear. What I said above is just how I approach it.

Its fine to disagree--especially respectfully!:D You may be right about ol' Blue, but the only clinic posts I've read by him were specific to things like EQ. Never seen him try to shred someones talent. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I just haven't seen it. Oh--and I don't think you are the most hated man in the clinic. You'll have to try MUCH harder:D

voxvendor--You know, I would get a kick out of sending you all the tracks and letting you mix. I think it would be fun. I could send you all my tracks, all of Lt. Bob's and all of Erichenryus's drum tracks and let you have at it if you want. Tell me how you want them and lets do it!

erichenryus--yeah--let me know what you find out. And thanks for posting and for understanding. I'll wait on any remix of my own until I hear from you, but I think I can fix things here. Or maybe we'll let voxvendor go for the mix (then I'm sure I will be the most hated man in the clinic--once he sees what all these tracks are!)

mkg--thanks for the multiple listens! As for the pop to slop, I know when I can't make something work, I jump to something completely different for a while. Great pop music is HARD to pull off anyway!(for me) I could write blues stuff all day long.
 
What an interesting thread this has turned into.....a little something for everyone.

Sam points out something that we haven't really talked about much. Letting someone else have control of your tracks involves a certain amount of trust. After all, here you've got these precious tracks that you've worked hard on and are proud of and then you just hand them over to someone else who could do who knows what to them. I can see why some folks would be reluctant to lose any control over how their tracks might end up.

Just for the record.....the way I'm envisioning doing drums is to let the drummer have full control of the mixing. I'm going to try having all drum tracks sent to me as an already mixed stereo track. The only thing I'll do is decide how loud to mix the drums against my other parts. That way the drummer has total control over the tone and the balance between the drums. This will save me a lot of time, for one thing; plus it should help the drum sound because who's better to mix drums than a drummer? So all the mixing and EQ decisions on the drum tracks will have been finished before I ever get my hands on them.
 
fed--hey, i missed you--thanks for the listen. They are Roland V-drums, so yes, they are MIDI technically. I was given sound files though.

Lt. Bob. I think in some case, the stereo drum mix would be perfect, but in other cases not. Here is why--its often difficult to know exactly what kind of EQ is needed or what ambience to use until you get into the final mixing stage. Obviously you can't send somebody a complete and final mix when you don't know what the final component--in this case drums--is going to sound like against what is there. It certainly would be easier to have a full drum mix and I agree that the drummer would know how to get his stuff sounding great, but lets say you decide the whole band track needs a change of ambience. The only thing you can do is add that ambience to the whole stereo drum mix.

The other thing is that even small changes in a mix can have a big effect on everything else. If the hi hat suddenly is sticking out, all you can do is turn down the whole drum kit, which I'd hate to do--especially if I liked where the snare or kick was sitting.

Its all about options. Having more options makes things harder, but there is more flexibility at mix time. Again, there are no rules, but this is just my perception of the way that keeps options open at the end.

What we need is to be able to teleport via computer so we don't have to deal with files and stuff! :D
 
Another thought

Anyone I collaborate with who has broadband, I would be more than happy to try a WAVE file transfer via IM or ICQ. IF you've got a good cable (or maybe even SDSL) connection, and a resume supported chat program (like ICQ) I find that a 50 to 70 MB file usually only takes about an hour or so with me...much faster than snail mail.

This may be another alternative to CD's or MP3. Sam, you and I should at least try this when we do something.
 
Hmmmmmmmmm..........that's certainly a valid point. lets say that you decided to add a horn section after the drummer already finished his mix. The additional mid-freq information could dramaticaly affect the needed level of the hi-hats or snare or anything in that freq range. Curiouser and curiouser. It seems like every collab is gonna have different requirements as to how we do them.
I love challenges and this is an exciting one. I have no doubt that we'll all find ways to do this that suit our different needs. I can't wait to get home from work every day to see what new developments have occurred.
 
Crawdad, I agree w/ you 100% about the importance of being able to manipulate the drum levels, etc. individually. ....Especially snare, kick, hi-hat and cymbals. ..and Sam, I also agree w/ the importance of being able to be "in on" how your tracks sound when involved in a "truly" collaborative project. If im just adding a track, its not as big a deal because noone knows the song as well as the writer. .......and, i have faith in them to do the best that they can to make it sound as appropriate as possible.

This is a method that i would like to try for a collab in the future:

-The initial idea is put to a click and distrubuted via quality mp3 to all parties involved.

-Each party could add their own tracks, fully mix what they have.....and repost via mp3

-Each mix could be compared, and discussed, noting changes to be made individually by each party.

-All of the mixes would be sent as individual tracks, panned hard, with their adjusted settings to an agreed party for "assembly".
I would hope that any additional tweaking needed would be very minor.

Regarding transfer, I would probably prefer CD, but that is because my dial-up connection would make aquiring them via mp3 painfully slow. .....but, if syncing problems dont result, I'll bet that a 320bps mp3 would work very nicely. ( a way to explore this might be to post and download click tracks to see if any deviation occurs....?)

.....Anyways, this would be a longer process, but it would allow all involved full input into the final outcome, as well as achieving a "true(er) mix".

......Dont mean to butt in on this thread, just thinking out loud........ I would love to hear thoughts on this....

g
 
.........as I drove home from work, I realized that I had forgotten to include the biggest pitfall in this scenario. When transferring files in this way, they are limited to being mono. This is a major bummer when incorporating stereo keys, or any other medium that is reliant on being stereo........ mmmmmm ......again, learning from my own mistakes....... :confused: . I guess if trying it this way, the "assembler" would have to be the person who's parts were most reliant on being true stereo. any ideas?
 
Re: guernica's post

Actually that method would still allow for stereo keys. All you would have to do is either send the left and right channels of the keys as seperate tracks or send the keys in stereo and don't worry about including the unneeded rhythm track. After all.....all you need to sync things up is the "click" at the beginning. So if you were sending keys in stereo, for instance, you would leave the click at the beginning but then mute the rhythm track for the rest of the song. Or, as I said, you could send the right channel of the keys on one track and send the left channel on another.

Another thing we should look at is how much repeated conversions might mess things up. I remember the very first thing that I did with anyone here was with sam and I basically used his method. I took his Mp3....added a sax to it and sent it back as an MP3. The only thing I did to his track was convert it to wave so I could record with it and then converted it back to MP3 with the sax added. I remember that sam hated what his base track sounded like. He wasn't unhappy with the sax but thought that his original tracks had suffered serious degradation. Since I didn't do anything at all (no EQ or FX ) to his tracks......I've always thought that the problem was the multiple conversions.

Now I didn't use 320.....I remember that I used 192 so maybe that's it but 192 should be fairly good and sam loathed what it did to his tracks. :) LOL I guess I remember it so well 'cause I felt bad about it. Here I had pushed my way into playing on someone's tracks when I didn't even know them and I screwed them up!

So maybe someone should take a track....convert it to MP3 and then take that and convert it to wave.....take that and reconvert it to MP3 and so on. Maybe do that 3 times and see what effect it has on things.

I'm not wedded to any of these methods. I think they all have their advantages and drawbacks and one way might be best in one situation and another might be best somewhere else. The really important thing is that we keep working and perfecting And sam......I'll collab with you anyway you want. all these methods are ways we can keep making music together. So I want to collab with you regardless of which method we use....the music's the main thing. Say....why don't you shoot me those drum tracks in MP3? :D:D

Lastly....this is why we need a collaboration forum. There are a lot of details to be exchanged to make these collabs happen and right now the only place we have to discuss it is the MP3 clinic. So let's try to get a collab forum going. Anyone know how we could do that?
 
Last edited:
cool vib!
nice sounds in there.
just some stalling drums... besides that.. awsome
Great work guys!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top