Crawdad, Erichenryus and Lt. Bob Collab

[Lt. Bob]

Hey kjam.....I went to look for your song but didn't find it. What thread is it in?


Also.....the sync issues with MP3's is why I've always mailed cd's with my tracks on them to the person wanting them.

 

[kjam22]

Actually in your first post you said "get rid of the drummer" which is a little bit snottier than just saying he wasn't good. And you said it after every other sentence. Once would have been sufficient....3 or 4 times starts to get insulting. And then when people suggest that you could have gone a bit lighter on that.....you copped the same defensive attitude that you critisize in others. You're right....if crawdad thought the drums had a sync problem he should have waited to post it but you have no knowledge of who's a good player and who's not here and you have no more reason to get bent out of shape than they do.

BTW....I'm probably older than you and there was no cut and paste used in this song. The syncing that's being talked about is in the process of getting tracks from someone across the country into your master mix so they can be inserted into the song....absolutely no cut and paste whatsoever. And I can guaruntee you that crawdad and I, at least, have been doing this the old-fashioned way just like you and just as long.

Man it was the best song I've ever heard. Tight groove. Still running through my head. A+ Better horns than Chicago. Guitar put Stevie Ray Vaughn to shame. Vocal reminded me of Barry McGuire.... only better. MORE MORE MORE

 

[Lt. Bob]

First I found your song....sounds pretty good. Everyone should go give it a listen.

Secondly.....I have not said anything particularly critical of you. I simply pointed out that you might could have presented things a little bit differently. Your last post is an example of what I'm talking about. Instead of acknowledging that there might be some validity to the comments others made.....you take offence and come back with a deliberately smart-ass response.
On your site you are clearly claiming to be a Christian...well what happened to the idea that a Christian chooses his words with care about the effect they may have on others. If you want to refuse to listen to other points of view...then you are the very same as what you're critisizing.

Lastly....noone disagreed with your observation about the drums. We just thought you could have been less meanspirited in how you said it....a concept that you seem to have trouble with.

 

[VOXVENDOR]

There is also something strange with the cymbals.. Like a flange or tape type sound, not sure but it doesn't sound right..

Sam.. I noticed it too.

I think it's that wavy shit that happens when the stuff is turned into an MP3..

I doubt it's on the original track... and if these guys have been passing MP3's back and forth in order to do this, thats probably compounded it....

At least thats my theory..

Yeah.. the drums sound off... But as I drummer, I can tell that the drummer here is a good drummer..... It sounds like there was some latency or other mechanical issue involved...

I don't think they need a new drummer.

It almost sounds to me like the snare was overdubed, rather than the drums beiing played as a kit... (Am I close?)

Anyways... The song is amazing.. what a feel.... !..

I refuse to comment on the recording, cause im listening on computer speakers with 1/2 inch diameter drivers.

Im up at the cottage on my laptop.


But, like I said.. Awesome Tune!

 

[jcmm]

DAMMNNN

I think I spent too many years in my youth with my head between Marshall stacks!!!

I had to switch to headphones before I could hear the cymbal wave being discussed. I think Vox's theory may be true.

Any sync issues have already been covered here and I don't see it as a big thing, it can be fixed.

I REALLY love the raw power the drums have in this tune. It is a gutsy production and has a great balance between polish, and that "club jam" feeling this song has.

crawdad.......you have done something here that I never pulled off in a ton of years writing and playing.

You wrote a song that noone else could sing except you!!!

This is another top notch effort

Joel

 

[crawdad]

geez...I go to bed drunk and wake up wanting to GET drunk! What a way to start post 801...

Anyway, Kjam and I didn't have a problem when I went to bed last night. We exchanged out opinions and all was cool. So now its been magnified and blown up again. I had no intention of turning this into a flame session.

B. Sabbath--maybe you are right, but when I read Kjam's first post I went "Holy shit! How is erichenryus gonna feel--and I think its MY fault." As far as how anybody wants to criticize me, I don't really care. Call me trash, call me whatever--but when I saw a friend getting criticized who helped me out, I dug in my heels and tried to support him and take the heat myself. So put yourself in my shoes and see how you would feel. Probably the same.

We can argue this all day long, but I don't come here to argue. I come to listen to and share music. When I comment, I try to respect people's feelings and apply "do unto others". If it can't be this way, I have no interest in posting anything else. I come here to learn and for spiritual reasons. Thats it.

Lt Bob--Well, you said it all, bro! And with a clarity I can't muster, so thank you my friend!

Yeah, I gotta dig in and see whats up with with the program. Trying to line up six drum tracks is tough, but if other factors are affecting the audio timing, I have to figure that out. As for my sense of rhythm, well fuck me! Ask Fed--he knows! It's something I'll get together in time.

Jr#97--Oh man! I DID forget you. Dude! I am sorry! You were asking about the guitar sound. Its a Strat>Tubescreamer>Allen Old Flame>SM57. Can't remember what pre I used, its been so long.

Jeap--no cutting and pasting. There was some placing of tracks from outside sources, so maybe thats technically pasting, but its the same thing as lining two reel to reels up. 10 tracks.


Thanks everybody for the comments. That MP3 stuff looks interesting, but we did use CD tracks, so I suspect thats not the issue.

Your cuttin, pastin', can't hear timin', old fashioned, drinkin', smokin', crappy rhymin', flame war startin' free form internet fool du jour--craw

 

[SLuiCe]

Your cuttin, pastin', can't hear timin', old fashioned, drinkin', smokin', crappy rhymin', flame war startin' free form internet fool du jour--craw

That's why I love this man.

 

[nave]

Great song. Great Job with everything......I heard the problems previously mentioned but they are sooooooooo minor... DIDN'T distract me from enjoying the tune a bit!! .... Man, you people need to freakin CHILL and ENJOY! Anyone who isn't involved with producing and/or playing an instrument would have never even noticed that shit

 

[Guernica]

Hey Crawdad,
So if im understanding things correctly, the CD that you received had no timing issues right? Lt. mentioned that everyone dowloaded their rhythm tracks, and i wanted to make sure that no timing problems occured during that transfer process. Latency w/ plug-ins is a bitch, but things happen. .....and those kinds of problems can always be corrected in a remix. ......But transfer and syncing issues are important and need to be understood. I love this collab thing that weve created for ourselves, and look forward to doing it alot w/ all of the talent that we have available.
..... I just want to make sure that all of the work and effort that goes into tracking makes it to the mixing board as intended.

.......learning, G

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Thanks everybody for the comments. That MP3 stuff looks interesting, but we did use CD tracks, so I suspect thats not the issue.

Even just flipping it into an mp3 for nowhere is enough to do it.

Do you hear it on the pre-mp3 version?

 

[Kramer]

Thanks!

Originally posted by Crawdad-Kramer--God Bless You Kramer! You stick with me, even when I'm a fool or when I run my mouth too much. I thank you for your comments. I want to answer your question about the vocal chain. On this song, I tried all my LD condensers (V93, 4033 and V67) but I wasn't getting what I wanted. This sent me digging in the mic case for the SM57, which I like for "rock and roll" vocals. I put a wind screen on it and plugged it into my Behringer VX200 pre. I used the opto compressor on the B pretty much maxed out. Hand held the mic and sang close, laying the track down. Afterwards, I used a touch of EQ, rolling off everything under about 40htz. I used some echo and some room reverb on the vocal. It sounded really "wrong" to me dry. I wanted to create a sense of room or sonic space and when it was dry, it sounded like the singer was not a part of the performance. Thus the effects. I tend to do it differently very time though. I'd love to get a great dry sound and add nothing, but i am still trying to figure that thing out.

Crawdad,
Thanks for taking the time to let me know how you recorded your vocals.It's much appreciated!

I dont know what you're talking about with being a fool and running your mouth too much.That sounds like ME. I think I've been cursed out at least 3 times this week in the Cave! I need to stay out of those war threads.

Maybe Kjam needs to come down to the Cave and get some agression out. j/k kjam.


I let my best friend listen to the songs you put up yesterday and he said who in the F### is that?!

I said,"Thats Crawdad man".

Thanks man!
Kramer

 

[crawdad]

Guernica--I'm learning too! Yes you are understanding things fine. What I got was each drum on a different track with a click at the top. The whole kit at once would have been easier, but I'd have no options.

I lined up all the clicks with the master and expected all would be perfect, but getting everything placed SAMPLE ACCURATE was impossible. Which doesn't make much difference on a vocal or lead guitar, but with a whole drum kit it is pretty important. Along the way, I am sure that some latency was added to at least the snare. (I'm sure now, cause I've taken my lumps from all quarters for my mistake!).

So, the question is: How to do these file transfers from platform to platform and achieve uniform results, leaving later latency issues as a different matter. This is what I think now--whether you're in Pro Tools, Cubase, DP, Nuendo or whatever, if you send somebody a track to play on, have that track start at the HEAD of your file--bar 1/1/000. Even if the tune doesn't start until later, put a click at 1/1/000. When you get a track back, make sure it starts with that click and just place it back in at 1/1/000 and, if WAV and AIFF files follow standard clocking, the two files should be perfectly in sync. Or so it seems to me. Sample rates are tied in with clocking. Change the clock and the sample rate changes. DAT machines are regulated by a clock which keeps the sample rate at its set level. Having it any other way would be a big no no. I think video decks use the same thing. I'm no expert, but in my laymans understanding, there is no drift in digital like there is in analog. So once two tracks are in sync, they should stay in sync. I'm NOT talking about MP3 here. And, I could be wrong about all this, but I think thats the gist based on my understanding.

 

[crawdad]

Kramer---Thanks man! The CAVE? ooohhhh....scary! I'm keepin' outta there myself for a while! Don't wish the CAVE on anybody!

Actually, I have had a lot of insight from differences of opinions here. See, we all perceive the world from our own narrow windows of experience. We assume we are right because what we perceive is what we believe. Then, somebody comes a long and says "WAIT A FREAKIN" MINUTE! Thats not what I see at all!" Then along comes ten more different views. All the sudden there is a much bigger perspective to consider. In the process I sometimes find myself going "Ah! never saw it like that before." You know?

The hard part is shedding the old views and embracing the new views. That can be tough for those who feel the need to be right all the time. I'm trying to be more flexible in that department. I figure I can learn to grow or stay stuck in the same old mud and I get tired of the mud!

Now, shit stirrers and troublemakers who start fights just to keep things in turbulence--ya just have to see who they are and what their game is. Most of us can.

"ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

 

[Kramer]

I know exactly what you mean about the cave and different points of view....I know that I've been sat down a few times with my ultra conservative Views.....it's not a bad thing to have strong opinions but it is bad to have the "Im right and you're wrong attiude" all the time.(I've been told that I do this sometimes)

There are a lot of smart people that hang out in the cave so I have to watch my step before I have to pull my foot out of my mouth.

I think I posted in a thread you started in the cave the other day.I hope you didnt think my response was directed at you.I just caught the topic and read a few of the replies and just fired off the first thing that was in my head...it was just my thoughts on the topic and not directed at anyone in the thread...I read your post and you are absolutely right in everything you wrote....I've seen people just like you described and it's sickening.....as I read through the thread though it seemed to turn into a bashing of anyone who had a lot of money(definetly not my poor ass ) and I just posted to see if I could veer it back on topic.

Now I just need to stay out of those war threads!It's hard to resist posting to the american bashers though!

It's Always a pleasure reading your posts and listening to your tunes crawdad!

 

[SLuiCe]

This is what I think now--whether you're in Pro Tools, Cubase, DP, Nuendo or whatever, if you send somebody a track to play on, have that track start at the HEAD of your file--bar 1/1/000. Even if the tune doesn't start until later, put a click at 1/1/000. When you get a track back, make sure it starts with that click and just place it back in at 1/1/000 and, if WAV and AIFF files follow standard clocking, the two files should be perfectly in sync.

Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind! I haven't collaborated with anyone yet, but even before this thread I really saw no other way to "guarantee" synchronicity.
Despite the excited debates about what bbs etiquette should be, as Lt. Bob said, this should amount to a HUGE learning experience for all of us. I commend the "pioneers" here paving the road for better collaborations.
And I believe a beautiful day will come when broadband will be fast enough to allow us all to actually JAM online. How sweet would that be!!!

(Ugh, that sounded like a GWB State of the Union address I know, save it for the Cave, SLuiCe.)

 

[mixmkr]

couple comments.

first off, it is the colab that seems the high point of this tune..or at least the 'neat' thing about it. Some new technology that we are all enjoying. Shit..I used to exchange Realaudio files...if you want to hear some slop. There are some issues with the mix, drum timing, cymbal crap, and all that, but it doesn't need to really be rehashed or confirmed by me..that's for sure.

A second point. ...as in one of Sjoko2 recent posts...he had stated that the drummer was "in the pocket"...but sounded off to most who listened. Then he said it was all "lined up" on the screen.....hhhhmmm similar to this instance, I might believe. hhhhmmm... what does that lead one to believe? First golden rule..you use your EARS first...not the meters, monitor, etc. Do people look at meters when they listen to music (anal engineers excepted)? Of course not. It IS the feel and the groove of the music. OK..so it is all lined up like a drum machine. hhhhmmmm, funny again...that's NOT the way the guitar player played....nor the singer... You then ask;..."oh...ok...they're off...not the drums now..right?" NO!!>> THEY played "in the pocket" but the "spreadsheet drums" didn't fit. So...I would say the [possible] mistake was trusting your eyes and NOT your ears in this case. Nudge the drums around until they sound right (kick and snare only..maybe at first...then add the others). When it sounds right...it IS right....who cares if it isn't lined up.

3rd point. I suppose they're are golden ears that hear the latency of mp3 files...but I think that THAT is NOT the issue. Even some 2ms changes would be hard to hear, I would think. But then again, I don't really hear time changes less than 10ms (I would hope/guess), and it would seem to me I have at least average hearing, and it would require some "special" ears to hear the minor latency mp3 encoding does. I've done it a lot (not in the least saying I am an expert), but I have never had THAT issue to be the problem. The sound quality, phasing, snare sounds changed to white noise, and screwy reverb tails....etc...yes, I can hear that. However 192kbps IMO blurs the differences pretty decent. I am amazed at the quality of such a lossy technology. Personally, (and I am sure to receive hell for this) I think recording issues, such as mic placements, original source sounds, and proper tracking are MUCH larger issues than mp3 files screwing with the sound. I am kinda on the belief that MOST, but not all, have issues that would even disguise what mp3 encoding does....and thus becomes the scapegoat for "whoa....I got bad sound...must be the encoding". I kinda don't (always) subscribe to that theory.

4th point.. As a Christian myself, it sure seems Christians as a "group" sure get told how they are supposed to act, if it appears to others that they are not living the "Christian way". Happens to me ALL the time. I'm not supposed to cuss, be blunt, and kiss up all the time. That's hard for me to do...(end of this tangent....sorry)

5th issue. you put a song up on the Internet...be prepared for all kinds of comments. Sure...I suppose it is ok to tell someone about "common courtesy"...be gee-moneezz...this IS the real world. On the extreme, assholes will fly planes into buildings and take their own life doing so. Yes...we have a "little group" here...but let's not make it a clique. You put something up out of sync. Well, be prepared to take the slam how amaturish that may be AS COMPARED TO A COMMERCIAL CD. To me "lose the drummer" can be interpreted many ways....IF you really look at it.

6th issue....my apologies for soapboxing on this thread...but I feel all is fair, and this SEEMS TO ME, to be an appropriate place to air my thoughts. If you don't like 'em....skip 'em. (or call Gidge or Chessrock!!! ....jus kidding of course )

7th...and maybe last for now....
my last song post really sucked...I am ASHAMED at you all for enjoying it!! What gives there?? You guys all pass around the same bong Sammy uses?? Seriously, I will probably piss off the [VERY MUCH APPRECIATED] people who took the time to listen and respond....but that song was a disaster... If I had a BBTTI...or whatever that 'sammy davis' device is...I would have run it thru twice It 'seemed' to be received well. Well...I guess headphones and intoxication do go well together...oh well. But, BULLSHIT...THIS SONG should be received well....MUCH MORE than that piece of slop I put up. It shows great chops, great songwriting, nice gtr sounds, decent production....just some ____ issues...eh?

8 point...this is the last one....promise

the mp3 clinic is the HEART of homerecording.com, and one of the BEST things on the internet for a musician. Plus...some of you assholes are really nice people too

chow....
btw....Digger did FANTASTIC today in an [informal] agility competition. He was "disqualified" because in demonstration he did TOO GOOD!!! Would have beat the "pants off" all the other dogs. I'm quite the proud "parent"

 

[B.SABBATH]

What gives there?? You guys all pass around the same bong Sammy uses??

It stands 2 feet high, and is made of glass.. I was going to change my avatar because I took a picture of it, but I didn't have the heart to remove the picture of John Michael Osbourne..





His work is not finished yet!

 

[SLuiCe]

Nope....I imagine another 3 or 4 seasons of the Osbornes oughta do it

(Sam you ever go to that smoke shop on Bleeker Street in the Village? They've got some great stuff there! )

 

[mixmkr]

It stands 2 feet high, and is made of glass.. I was going to change my avatar because I took a picture of it, ..

so..can you fit a whole 'lid' in it? does anyone ever still call it a "lid"?

I made in bong in high school ceramics class. No one knew what it was. That was cool. Man...you could suck some dope thru that. Then when dope got "expensive", the pinch hitter took over.. Do they still have "power hitters"?...the squeeze bottles that'll make a joint "run" like a bad boy...

 

[B.SABBATH]

people think it's strange but I only watched one episode of the Osbournes, and decided to never watch it again. I do not like it at all.. I still listen to Black Sabbath regularly, and that show just makes Ozzy seem too human..



I was never at the smoke shop on Bleeker, but I'll probably be around that way soon.. I have been meaning to get to CBGB's again.. We have a great smoke shop around here... Lou (the owner) is about 60 years old, and smokes everyday.. He's is one of the nicest guys you could ever meet.. (like if George Burns smoked pot) If I made it to 60, I wonder if I would have still been smoking!





mix, haven't heard that word in a while.. Herb is sooo expensive now, I can hardly afford it anymore.. I always seem to find a way though.. A few hours overtime usually does it..
Unfortunately I have become so used to the really good stuff..(hydroponic) It is about 4x the price.. roughly $25 dollars a joint! It's almost not worth it.. There are just some things you don't want to buy cheap, because you regret it later.. (like toilet paper etc.)

My bong is basically a one hitter.. The idea is to suck it completely through so you have a fresh, exciting, delicious new hit everytime..


I don't drink too often, and it's better than prozac.. (and without the side-effects)







I need a pizza..





Sorry about the thread interruption..