Collaborations, a discussion on logistics

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guernica
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by time you dudes figure this out, you could have all gotten together and done the collab in person. beats a click thing. he he he

I don't really understand all this stuff anyway. Must be a computer thing. But I seem to think that if you recieve a song, track, or whatever, in the form of a cd, e-mail, or some other way, then you could play your part and send it back.

I'm assuming this sync stuff must be for mixing and editing the tracks. It's kinda like telling the bass player to get in sync or quit playing. he he he he No?

dtb
 
Well the goal here is to be able to put your tracks into another person's tune as if you actually went to their house and recorded them there. If you went in the studio and recorded tracks...they would be able to have them on a seperate track which is what we do when we multi-track. If all you want to do is to add your track to something just to see what it might sound like....then just adding tracks to the mix as you go along is fine.....but if you want someone to be a "session" player on your song....then you either need for them to come over to your house or they can send you the tracks seperately on a cd or Mp3 or whatever. But you have to find a way to have those tracks in sync with the other tracks so you need a reference. That's what the click or beep is for. And you don't need the click all the way through. You only need it at the beginning so you start all the tracks at the same time because if he played with your rhythm track that had the beep.....then his tracks are going to be in sync with yours if you sync the beeps up. The easieat way that I'm seeing here is the original way we've been doing it because it will work regardless of platform.....even with analog recorders as long as their speed is correct.
And bandwidth doesn't matter if you're mailing a cd.
However......that midi thing looks very interesting for people who have rigs that can use a midi map. I'll have to read up on that but everyone's machines would have to be able to do that.
 
the important thing is to have a "time ruler", it doesn't matter if it is midi or bar/beats/tick, or hh:mm:ss.

The improvement will be to use a good name convention, in the style of:

collabName_tracknumber_syncpoint.mp3

Example:
bob_track01_Bar040Beat01.mp3

that way you free yourself from sending huge files that are in sync from the very beginnig of the song. You can send track parts. Of course, if you're all playing all the time then you will need to send huge files.

You will need to agree a tempo, and that's it, you can use any time ruler.

The click track can be sent as any other track in mp3 (clicktrack_track01_Bar001Beat001.mp3)

The good thing about midi is that it can fire a click track from a midi device, thus avoiding the need to send the click track. And also that it's cool cause you can put markers in a midi file. And also because it's very good for songs with variable tempos.

Cheers, Andrés
 
Guernica said:
Is that right?.......wow...... aint that a bitch. So, anytime a person converts a .wav file to mp3 it adds a 786 sample delay? Are there any encoders available (LAME encoder, sam?) that dont do this?
Click to expand...

I don't know... and actually if I recall correctly it's the process of *decoding* it which introduces the delay... or somesuch... uh.... I dont know for sure... its different between decoders e.t.c.

I only know that EVERY mp3 I *ever* received and just plunked into SONAR I had to slide a bit to the left for it to sync. If that is SONAR's decoding or most encoders... I am not sure.

/Z
 
Yeah, plus we,re laboring the point, Stan.

I sent drstawl an mp3 of the whole tune, and he sent me back a CD with the synth part on it. No sync points or anything, so I just stuck it in where it made sense. No big deal. I think this syncing tracks thing is a question of convenience, not necessity. I mean, we do know how to listen, right?
 
I think maybe dobro has my meaning. The only way I've done this is to download a track from nwr to a cd, then put this on my recorder and play with it, then make a cd with both tracks to send back. Of course, I do see the need for this sync thing if the originator was recieving 4,6, or whatever tracks as seperate tracks. They then would have the ability to mix, edit, or whatever to the individual tracks. Yes? So, if 4 of you were together at the same recorder, and played your tracks seperately, is this sync thing needed, or does the the player have to be "in sync" with the other tracks in his ablility to hear them, and play his or her interpretation of the song, at which time, the only points left are whether each person likes each others interretation as a whole.
This is real interesting stuff, and please excuse me for maybe being a little dumb, but I'm learning here. Now a ?. A digital recorder, in my case, the 788, has the ability to make a cd of the seperate tracks for storage, which can be put back into the recorder for further use (I don't have the cd drive, but plan to get one). And if this is done and sent to another person, he or she would maybe need to sync these tracks to their own machine for timing and such? Just trying to understand this stuff.

dtb
 
It's really the same thing as you've been doing......we send a song to someone and they play along with it and send both tracks back........but instead of sending both tracks back mixed together, (which doesn't allow any further mixing) we send the tracks back seperately so the can be reinserted into the original recording as discrete tracks. The sycing thing is less complicated than it seems. If, for example, you sent out a drum track and you wanted a percissionist to add tracks.....it would be very obvious if it wasn't in sync. One way would be for him to take the mix he was sent and simply add his tracks to that mix and send it back. It would be basically a finished mix and would be in perfect sync because he played along with your drums and sent it back to you that way.

But if you wanted to put his percussion on say, channel 7 of you recorder, how would you do that? You could simply put it wherever it seemed to fit based totally on listening and saying, "OK that's in time with the original drums" This would maybe be good enough, but maybe not....it just depends on how tight you needed it to be with your original tracks. But if there is a reference poin....say a beep 2 seconds before the music starts....you don't have to depend on your ears to get it right. Once you get those beeps at exactly the same spot then the rest of the tracks are perfectly in sync. Whether that would be more accurate than just using your ears is open to discussion but I think in very time critical parts such as drums, it probably would be more accurate and also once you had the method down it would be very quick and easy. There would never be a need to make decisions as to "IS that in time?" It would always be perfectly in time.
 
I'm seeing this now. Thanks, for the patience. Maybe all I needed was some layman terms. So the key to this collab. stuff is for someone , who I assume, is at the end of the line, and would be able to have mixing and editing capablility for different tracks that are done, as well as the original track. And if everyone involved had the same sync reference, and was able to sync to it, then any of these musicians could also use any of the seperate tracks as their source material: say I wanted to put a guitar on the finished song, and I preferred to hear, maybe the bass and the rythum guitar only, when I do my track, then as long as all involved were sync'ed together, then my track would be in sync. Cool. Now this is making a lot more sense, and I'm feeling a lot more dumber. So this midi thing is important. Need to brush up on this for sure. I can see one big advantage to using this sync, it saves time from someone like me doing 30 takes to get the track down. he he he he he he he he

dtb
 
Hey folks,

originally posted by Lt. Bob

Well the goal here is to be able to put your tracks into another person's tune as if you actually went to their house and recorded them there.
Click to expand...


EXACTAMUNDO!!!


Dtb- when refering packing up tracks for storage on the 788, I think you mean data back-up (correct me if im wrong). This wouldnt work with people not using the 788 or some Tascam compatible digital recorder because the Tascam drives are proprietary. You cant use just any cdr drive for data backup..... its kind of bullshit too. ..... but i guess thats how they make money.:mad:
 
yeah, I kinda started thinking about that, and remembered research into the 788 and knowing the data drives (yes that's what I ment) were screwed that way. So I see why in a way, the computer can be real handy in this stuff. Being able to have tracks stored somewhere for later use. Damn, sounds like tape. he he he he he he But that's another thread. Now we get to another ?. How does a dude get around this, if he or she is lacking in a certain area, because of gear, or maybe knowledge. Like someone who can't sync up to the tracks.

sync me up, scotty

dtb
 
dtb.....
You arent lacking bro:D All of the collab work that i have done has been through my trusty ole 788. You just cant use data files. Im assuming that youre burning your tracks onto something right? Just take that cd, convert it to mp3 and walla.
.....just what youve done all along. read Lt. Bobs posts back at the begining of this thread. Its all about the sync. ....and that isnt a data issue. ......you be collabin in no time!!!:D :D :)



g

btw: I might be interested in a little banjo pickin, if you dont mind the music genre that i might offer up..... it wont be no roy clark:D
 
Hey dtb.....Guernica can give you spedifics 'cause he uses a 788 but the functions you want to look at are the Cut and Paste (or move) function and the Wave-form editing. They look scarey at first but there's nothing to them. Take a track of guitar and put it on two tracks of your 788 and play around with these functions and you'll get it in no time.

So now you understand the functions.....how do you use that to sync up someone elses parts that they send you?

Lets say you have a stereo mix you want me to add sax to. You put a beep a couple of seconds before the music starts and send me the rhythm track with the beep on it. I simply record it into my recorder on tracks 1 and 2 and play along with it recording my sax on track 3. There's no syncing required of me....I just play along with the rhythm track you've sent me. The only person that has to fool with syncing at all is the originator of the tune who has to assemble the parts once they are finished.
So I've got my sax part done........I then take that and send it back to you with the rhythm track hard-panned to the left and the sax part hard-panned to the right. Whether we use Mp3s, or wave-files or mail cd's, it doesn't matter....the process is the same.
Now you get the tracks and you record them to your 788 on any two available tracks. You try to get them in time with the original tracks as much as possible but it's probably not perfect. So the way you fix that is to go to wave edit and look for the beep. You'll be able to "see" where the beep is timewise on your screen. Since you've presumably already looked to see where the beep was on the original tracks , you simply "move" or "cut and paste" the two tracks I've sent you to that spot. All you're looking at is the beep but the rest of the tracks are moved right along with it.
Lets say that on the original tracks....you've determined that the beep falls on 2/10/002 (just making up imaginary numbers) and once you've recorded the "incoming" tracks that beep falls at 2/25/004. You take and "move" the entire two tracks to where the beep falls on 2/10/002 just like the original beep. Now everything on the incoming tracks is in perfect sync with your original tracks because you've made it start at the exact same spot by using the beep to line them up. Once you've done this....you no longer need the "incoming" rhythm track so you just delete it. Now you're left with just my sax part on a seperate track in your 788 just the same as if I came over to your house and recorded it. With the added advantage that you didn't have to clean up the house. :D
It looks far more complicated than it is......One thing to remember is that for anyone who's simply playing stuff for someone else, syncing doesn't come into the picture. If you were gonna play some guitar on one of my tunes.....you wouldn't have to do any syncing.....just play along with my tracks and send it back to me panned.

Whew! I tried to write this post last night when I got in from the gig but I had a buzz and kept getting lost. So I gave up 'till today. :D:D

I hope this helps. Like I said, Guernica could give you specific commands to do this 'cause he has a 788. I use a Fostex HD-1624 so some of the terminology might be a bit different but the basic process is the same.
 
OK, G and Lt.
How do I get into this shit. All I really wanted was someone to clean the house. he he he he he
You guys really don't want to come over do you?
I haven't fooled much with these tools on the 788 yet, but I'm seeing the need to at least know how to use them. Now, say I do a track (just 1 instrument), burn to a cd, and then convert to mp3. How do you send that to someone? E-mail, or what. And I am assuming I already do this conversion when I put my tunes from a cd on my computer and send them to NWR. The files are called mp3. Is this correct? And if so then these "files" can go e-mail. Of course if someone sent me a "file" , I have to burn that to cd, then put it on a track, or 2 tracks on the 788. Then all I would have to do is play a track with these tracks, panning one way or the other, depending on what the originator wanted.

Someone sent me a tune (actually we did it thru NWR) and I downloaded it to my puter, burn a cd, put that into my 788, and played a track with it, burned that and sent it back to him in e-mail. Worked fine, except, I didn't know about putting the tune on 2 tracks, and the panning stuff, but I see how that's the way to go for the originator to be able to mess with the tracks. Am I following ya'll now?

And G, my banjo, mando, guitar, is for hire. If you like cleaning house, cutting grass, etc. he he he he he he he

dtb
 
Yes, it looks like you have the gist of it. The panning thing is so that whoever gets the tracks from you can seperate them. Stereo is just two tracks. We call them left and right but they don't have to be. So think of it as a way of sending two tracks. Once you look at it that way, it's easy to see that you can send a reference track (i.e. the rhythm track or click track or beep or whatever) and the desired track.
Now if I send you several different parts....I have to do the whole thing for each of the parts so you can put each on it's own track in your 788.

As for figuring out those functions on your machine.......what I did was put a mono drum beat on two tracks of my machine and then played around with moving (cut and paste) one of those two tracks. It was very easy to hear what I was doing and I understood it very quickly. That's how I would start because puting the drumbeat in and out of sync with itself will show you immediately what you're doing when you move tracks and once you have that.....the rest of this will be clear.
 
damn, homework. Thanks Lt. I've got a friend who plays keys in a local band that dabbles with this stuff some. He says he'll be glad to help out, as long as I buy the beer. he he he he

There's light at the end. I just hear it.

dtb
 
Lt. Bob, for reference, there is NO conversion on NWR to 128kbps etc., the ONLY thing that is down converted is a file for the lo-fi, or 24kbps. Whatever you upload, is the file that sits on NWR, and the file that gets downloaded by the user, no conversion is done.

W.
 
Hey Waldo,
You are just the expert to answer another question that we have been asking.....and maybe you already did. When converting a file from our recorders/computers, etc. to mp3..... What is the extent of the degeneration that occurs. ......besides the obvious compression. Do slips in timing occur? Being that it is a digital signal, one would think not...... but just to be sure.......... I figured you would be the guy to ask.

Dtb, coool man, I'll be paying you a visit when i need some of your exotic instrumentation:D And feel free to give me a yell if you want anything from me. Its a piece of cake on the 788 man. Do you have the manual? All is clear there. If not, mess w/ your track edit functions........ you'll figure it out. Dont hesitate to ask (pm, etc.) if you have any questions, its no bother at all. The only thing i would add to Lt. Bob's explanation for clarity is that when you receive the panned tracks from the person who might be giving you some goods...... and after you drop the existing r. track.... you can re-pan the sax, or whatever, wherever you want it to be. You probably know that already, but i figured i would toss that in just in case. What we've been discussing to take that idea further is sending true stereo contributions by just returning the contributed part w/ only the click at the beginning.....and not the whole r. track. Now the door is open to send stereo synt parts, guit parts.......or stereo whatever..... COOL!
 
TheRealWaldo said:
Lt. Bob, for reference, there is NO conversion on NWR to 128kbps etc., the ONLY thing that is down converted is a file for the lo-fi, or 24kbps. Whatever you upload, is the file that sits on NWR, and the file that gets downloaded by the user, no conversion is done.

W.
Click to expand...
Yeah.......you know right after Sam and I talked about that and I thought NWR converted it to 128kbps.....I uploaded a song at 320kbps and when I played it back it played at 320 so that settled that....but I'm sure that what I did to Sam's song was at 192 so I guess I messed something up somehow but I sure don't know what. Oh well.....I guess it's another ( Boris Karloff voice) electronic mystery.
 
It is possible that small timing issues occur depending on encoder decoder pairs. I.e., if one encoder is used, and one user uses a different decoder vs. another, there is a possibility of missing data, or 'chunks'.

However, with a decent encoder and decoder, the odds of this occuring are slim to none.

The extent of the degradation on audio varries on the content, and encode method. Certain frequencies can be entirely lost, some muted, etc.

I've heard many collaborations done with the mp3 format as tracks sources, and to me, it's noticeable most of the time. As to how many people might notice, your guess is as good as mine.

I've been thinking of building in a few features to the NWR p2p app to allow shared collabs, with lossless encoded files. For those with slow ass modems, it'll take a while to d/l such tracks, but I think the end result is worth it. Hell, best way in my eyes is to do mp3 for the base idea, then do full quality wavs (transfered using a lossless encoding method to save size) for the final tracking.

W.
 
Hey G, and Lt., did my homework, sorta. I kinda used ya'lls example and put a short guitar track down, and then fucked with it using most all of the edit features on it. I even put down a 3 chord rythum phrase down, and copied it for 4 times, and then played a little lead with it. Cool. And, how about cloning? That seems to be a cool idea. Used the slow motion thingy a little. And yes, I could really see how the click thing would be used. Thanks.

Now I like Waldo's thinking. Would a central location for collabs be cool? I'm thinking of access, and security. But it sounds like a cool idea.

Oh no, here we go again. 128kbps, 192 , 320. What you talking about willis. I remember when I first started using NWR someone told me to set my puter or something to 128kbps. I think I was recording tunes into my puter at like 56 or something. Shit. Hell I don't know. But I do know it's on 128 now. Is this a good thing?

dtb
 
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