Cannot fix latency

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cwhowell2

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This is not a rant or list of complaints. Just a plea for help. I'll try to summarize. I've been using Cakewalk since 1990 (DOS version) and have upgraded pretty much every other release. I had some success with computer based recording with Cakewalk Pro Audio-9 many years ago but was never able to get Sonar to overcome the latency issues. Using Scott's book I was able setup and try some recording but have never been able successfully record. I use a stand-alone 24 track recorder so Sonar is basically just my sequencer and soft-synth player for now. I have tried several times in the past to get computer based recording working but the only control over latency seems to be buffer size. Adjusting that does eliminate latency, however it also introduces clicks and stutters. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. So with my configuration as below, what can I do to eliminate the latency problem? Thanks, Bill.

Dell Optiplex 9020 - Intel i7-4790 3.6ghz - 2 1tb HD - 16gb mem Win 7 Pro SvcPk 1.
Sonar X2 Producer (X2A build 351 - x64)
Interface: Scarlett 8i6 - Mixctl 1.8.128.0 - Driver 2.5.1 API 3.0
1) Is there anything besides buffer size that I can adjust?
2) Are the newer version Scarletts better performers?
3) Would upgrading to X3 help? I hate to keep spending money on upgrades that do not seem to help.
 
I assume you mean input monitoring latency. If you're talking about record latency, alignment of the tracks after they've been recorded, that's different.

Are you using MixControl? That should make input latency practically nothing.
 
Yes. Input latency is my problem. Playing a soft-synth via the Cakewalk A-100 keyboard results in a slight delay before I hear the tone from a keypress. I am not skilled enough to be able to play that way. I am using MixControl but admit I don't know what I'm doing. I am lucky if I even get things routed correctly to get them to work. Is there a tutorial somewhere for MixControl? Also wondering if I should get the newer generation of Scarlett now being advertised? I purchased the 8i6 based on a recommendation via phone call to Cakewalk tech support. Thanks - Bill
 
I bought the Scarlett 8i6 because Cakewalk Tech Support said it was the only interface that they recommend. I like the sound quality but not the need for an external power supply. So I'll probably replace it anyway. The new Scarlett 2i2 (2nd Gen) has good reviews on Guitar Center website so obviously some people are getting it to work. At $150 it's worth the gamble to me if it allows me to switch to computer based recording. I used to be happy with a Tascam 2488 as it had the ability to MIDI-sync with Sonar so I could lay down MIDI tracks one at a time. Unfortunately lost that unit in a flood and the replacement DP-24 no longer has the MIDI-sync function. So now I have to prepare all my MIDI backing at once and dump it to the recorder. Unfortunately that leaves no room for tweaking. If I could get up on computer based recording I would have individual control over all the tracks. Thanks again for listening. Bill
 
Hi Bill,

There are two main things which introduce latency.

The first is your audio hardware buffer size settings.
I'm oversimplifying but imagine something is bringing your audio in via one bucket. Small buckets quickly = steadier flow. Large bucket = big breaks in between.

Buffer size settings are usually controlled in your DAW settings/preferences. It might be labelled latency control or something similar.
It's usually adjustable between 32/64 and 1024/2048 in binary increments. Set it to something like 128 or 256 and see if it helps.

Anything higher is usually audible.

The flipside, and main reason for having this control, is that you can crank it up once you're finished recording.
If your mix has a lot of intensive plugins and your computer is struggling to playback without glitches, doing this will help and the latency is no longer an issue because you're no longer recording.

The other thing is that some plugins introduce their own latency for processing time.
A lot of intensive plugins like vocal pitch shift tools etc can introduce a lot of latency.
For testing, just set up a blank session with no plugins and work from there.

Hope that's useful.
 
Thanks for the reply Steenamaroo,
Actually I do not use any effects at all. Reverb and delay are external boxes between mic and Scarlett or guitar. I also have spent much time tweaking buffer size and cannot find middle ground. When the buffer size is set for acceptable latency, I get static, clicks and drop-outs. It certainly can't be PC horsepower as I've read about users with far smaller systems than mine working fine. At this point I'm hoping that investing in a 2nd generation Scarlett will give me the edge I need for near-zero latency. I really don't know what else to try. Although I plan to run it by Focusrite tech support first. (I'm sure they will suggest buying a new unit)
 
Oh, ok. That doesn't sound great.
Also, apologies...I didn't see you'd mentioned buffer sizes in your first post.

I also just realised you're talking about midi latency so buffer sizes may not even be relevant.

It might be useful to prove that with an audio source.
If you don't get latency with a plugged in analog signal (mic, keyboard, guitar) then this is strictly a midi related issue. Please try that.
Could even be something as silly as auto quantize being turned on! :eek:

Regardless, a PC like yours you really shouldn't have to look for a middle ground. It should be more than happy tracking at 128 or perhaps less.
If you're getting clicks/pops dropouts on a light session at, say, 128, that's telling us there's a problem somewhere.

Is your PC bogged down at all? Lots of things going on in the background?
What is the soft synth? Is it something heavy-duty with huge sample libraries? If so, try moving those libraries to an external hard drive.
 
Steenamaroo - Thanks again for your reply and your interest. The latency is definitely audio as it happens with anything plugged into the Scarlett. Guitar, mic, etc. I do probably have background stuff going as this is a stock PC from Dell with Norton Security added. I hate to disable Norton but suppose it's worth a try. In the meantime I've decided to try a couple things. I ordered more memory from Dell to upgrade from 16gb to 32gb. Also getting ready to visit my Guitar Center to pick up a 2nd Generation Scarlett. The ads claim better latency so it can't hurt. Also I hate having the external power with the 8i6 as the new units are USB powered and that's one less cord on my setup to trip over.
Regards - Bill
 
Yes. Tear out, delete, uninstall, and deactivate everything that is not directly related to audio production and never let it connect to the internet except maybe for software authorization.

You are using the ASIO drivers for your interface? It sounds like it, but just to be sure...

Does your version of Sonar have a way to send and receive SMPTE timecode via the audio inputs and outputs? This could help you overcome the lack of sync on your recorder. Course, if your computer worked properly, you wouldn't need that thing anymore. :)
 
Following up on ashcat_IT's post. Are you sure that you are using the actual ASIO driver for your Scarlett?

Have you ever installed ASIO4ALL? I have encountered problems where just having it installed interferes (significantly) when a real ASIO device/driver is installed. If you think you are using your device's driver you may actually be using the ASIO4ALL program. If you have ever installed it you MUST completely uninstall it from your conputer to get it out of the way of your real driver ((Control Panel - Programs and Features - ASIO4ALL - Uninstall).

Glen
 
You can buy an interface and it might fix it, but it might not.
I'd try all the free options first.

Unless there's a very specific hardware incompatibility going on, I can't see an interface change fixing anything.

ashcat_lt said:
Yes. Tear out, delete, uninstall, and deactivate everything that is not directly related to audio production and never let it connect to the internet except maybe for software authorization.
Click to expand...

You could always just check system performance.
If CPU/mem/HDD are all ticking at 2%, there's no point tearing the machine apart.
Norton is a notorious resource hog, all the same,

Check system stats under load and, if they're not good, start there.
 
I wonder if you're routing your audio through the DAW rather than by the shortcut through the MixControl, causing increased latency.

If you solve the audio latency, perhaps run audio from the keyboard for monitoring purposes while also recording the MIDI.

Often, people have a second drive in the computer to store VSTi files, so the system drive doesn't have to supply them while doing other stuff.
 
Last edited:
bouldersoundguy said:
I wonder if you're routing your audio through the DAW rather than by the shortcut through the MixControl, causing increased latency.

If you solve the audio latency, perhaps run audio from the keyboard for monitoring purposes while also recoding the MIDI.
Click to expand...
There's no good reason to have to do that, though. This machine sounds like it should be able to handle a couple audio tracks and/or VSTis.
 
ashcat_lt said:
There's no good reason to have to do that, though. This machine sounds like it should be able to handle a couple audio tracks and/or VSTis.
Click to expand...

Probably, but something seems to be making that difficult. Using MixControl and the analog output from the keyboard might just get him up and running with less effort.
 
Thanks again everybody for the replies. Will be trying out my new upgrades tonight. Memory now 32gb. 2nd Generation Scarlett installed. Never used ASIO4ALL. Will also disable internet access and shut down Norton anti-virus. Also plan to do some more reading in Scott's X2 Power book. Maybe something new will come up. Wish me luck. Hopefully I'll have a Tascam DP24 for sale soon. - Bill
 
PS: The new 2nd Generation Scarlett 2i4 does not seem to include MixControl.
 
The keyboard is a Cakewalk A-500 and does not produce audio. Only MIDI which I use to drive soft-synths in Sonar.
Not sure about MixControl as it was not included with the 2i4 2nd Gen. I used it with the 8i6 but found it extremely difficult to understand.
Guess I just needed to find a good tutorial. I'll contact Focusrite and see if MixControl works with the new Scarlett.

bouldersoundguy said:
I wonder if you're routing your audio through the DAW rather than by the shortcut through the MixControl, causing increased latency.

If you solve the audio latency, perhaps run audio from the keyboard for monitoring purposes while also recording the MIDI.

Often, people have a second drive in the computer to store VSTi files, so the system drive doesn't have to supply them while doing other stuff.
Click to expand...
 
Another 16gb ram is unlikely to have any effect. I seriously doubt you were maxing out 8, let alone 16gb.

Pulling Norton etc may help but, again, checking system performance % might point you in the right direction more quickly.
I mean, it'll literally tell you what programs are using what percentage of what. No brainer?

As much as it may be useful troubleshooting advice, I don't think I've ever had make the choice between audio recording and some other service, application or luxury.
That kind of compromise might have been necessary in pentium IV days but not these days.

Dropping network+AV for isolation and security is a different story, of course. If that's someone's choice, fair enough.
 
Triumph deluxe. With the upgrades described, I was able to record live guitar into a project with 16 MIDI tracks, driving 10 soft-synths and latency was undetectable. No idea which of the several upgrades did the trick, but everything seems to be working as advertised now. I have some additional questions that I'll post as new threads. Thanks again everybody for your replies. - Bill
 
Simple fix

cwhowell2 said:
This is not a rant or list of complaints. Just a plea for help. I'll try to summarize. I've been using Cakewalk since 1990 (DOS version) and have upgraded pretty much every other release. I had some success with computer based recording with Cakewalk Pro Audio-9 many years ago but was never able to get Sonar to overcome the latency issues. Using Scott's book I was able setup and try some recording but have never been able successfully record. I use a stand-alone 24 track recorder so Sonar is basically just my sequencer and soft-synth player for now. I have tried several times in the past to get computer based recording working but the only control over latency seems to be buffer size. Adjusting that does eliminate latency, however it also introduces clicks and stutters. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. So with my configuration as below, what can I do to eliminate the latency problem? Thanks, Bill.

Dell Optiplex 9020 - Intel i7-4790 3.6ghz - 2 1tb HD - 16gb mem Win 7 Pro SvcPk 1.
Sonar X2 Producer (X2A build 351 - x64)
Interface: Scarlett 8i6 - Mixctl 1.8.128.0 - Driver 2.5.1 API 3.0
1) Is there anything besides buffer size that I can adjust?
2) Are the newer version Scarletts better performers?
3) Would upgrading to X3 help? I hate to keep spending money on upgrades that do not seem to help.
Click to expand...

Monitor your input along with the output from your previously recorded tracks (turn off recording track monitoring, so you are not hearing the latency). Time shift your new recorded track to match up with the pre-recorded track. Play back. Done.
 
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