Can you help in guitar mixing?

[Aviel]

Hey
i recorded some track with a distortion rythm guitar, but at the final mix the guitar is very thin, it doesnt sound as a part of the mix, but sounds floating on it.
Also i think that the guitar should be spread on more frenquencis, but when tried to boost the highs, it came out very sharp and worse then before. i tried also to compress it but it didnt help.

I have uploaded a part of the mix, if someone can help me i will be thankfull.

Thanks
Aviel

http://firstva.xoompages.com/begining-04.zip

 

[jonnyc]

Ummm well, once I regain my hearing I'll try to listen to it again. Those cymbals were so harsh they made my teeth hurt. You're amp doesn't sound like a terribly good one either. Give some info on your recording chain. guitar, amp, mic, interface, software. It honestly just sounds like you need to work on your overall mixing skills. Also what are you using for monitors?

 

[jndietz]

The guitar sounds like it was recorded in a trash can! Thats just my observation... otherwise I think the drums sound alright

Maybe doing some mastering you can work it out? I will see what I can do

 

[jonnyc]

The guitar sounds like it was recorded in a trash can! Thats just my observation... otherwise I think the drums sound alright

Maybe doing some mastering you can work it out? I will see what I can do

There's no mastering in the world that's gonna work any of that out. Mixing, maybe. To me it sounds like backing tracks or some kind of drumloop with guitars and bass recorded. The drum sounds just don't match the guitar, as far as quality goes. To me it sounds like a bad room, cheap amp, cheap guitar, recorded with a radio shack mic into a soundblaster.

 

[Aviel]

Well my equipment is the following:

Ibanez RG 1550 (not a cheap guitar)
Into a Zoom GFX8 effect processor,
Recorded from marshall MGdfx-30 (not a proffesional amp, but not very cheap neither)

I used 2 microphones- condenser (AKG c400b) like 1 meter from the center of the amp, and a dynamic (audio technica) pointed towers the center-left side of the amp.

The condenser went through a focusrite preamp compressor, and the dynamic thruogh my mixer's pre-amp, then both into the sound card- Audiophile 192.

I am recording with Cubase, and have tapco 8" active monitors.


I did play a bit with the EQ, maybe i made it worse then it was.
I will try to play a bit with the drums- maybe reducing the crash

But what about the guitar?
Thanks

 

[Aviel]

The guitar sounds like it was recorded in a trash can! Thats just my observation... otherwise I think the drums sound alright

Maybe doing some mastering you can work it out? I will see what I can do

Maybe lowering the drums and bass will help the guitar gain some "power"?

Also here is a new mix i tried to do, i gave the guitar some more volume and removed to compression, and changes a bit the drums sound- but the guitar still takes my mix quality down.

http://firstva.xoompages.com/begining-05.zip

 

[ermghoti]

Into a Zoom GFX8 effect processor

Using the Zoom's preamp section? A bad idea. Use any effects in the loop, if it has one. Since you would be better off adding effects post-recording, you should probably just remove the Zoom entirely.

Recorded from marshall MGdfx-30 (not a proffesional amp, but not very cheap neither)

That is a cheap amp. Also, not a good amp. Sorry. You will find few nice things said about Marshall's entry-level SS amps, and they tack on about $100 for the name on the grille.

I used 2 microphones- condenser (AKG c400b) like 1 meter from the center of the amp, and a dynamic (audio technica) pointed towers the center-left side of the amp.

This is the real problem. The mics are far too far away from the sound source (the speaker). You will be getting a lot of "room sound," or natural reverb and cancellation, so the guitar will sound far away, no matter how loud it is in the mix. It is probably safe to assume you are not recording in a treated room, so any room sound you get is going to be detrimental.

Start with one mic, ideally a dynamic, but a condensor can work (they put out a hotter signal, and may OD your pres), and stick it somewhere between 12" from directly in front of the cone of the speaker, and nearly touching the grille cloth. Experiment with placement, distance, and angle. Try putting the combo on a chair. Throw a couple heavy blankets over the whole deal.

This is not a mixing problem, it's a recording problem.

 

[travelin travis]

This is not a mixing problem, it's a recording problem.

yep. your recorded tracks should sound fairly close to how you want the final mix to sound. if you have to drastically change something at mixdown using eq, then the tracks were'nt recorded right in the first place. it sounds like you would benefit from spending a whole day just playing around with different mic placements and comparing the results. if after you've experimented with mic placement and amp settings for awhile and you still can't get close to the results you want, then you need either a different amp or different mics. strive to leave nothing to be fixed in the mix and you will get much better results.

 

[jonnyc]

yep. your recorded tracks should sound fairly close to how you want the final mix to sound. if you have to drastically change something at mixdown using eq, then the tracks were'nt recorded right in the first place. it sounds like you would benefit from spending a whole day just playing around with different mic placements and comparing the results. if after you've experimented with mic placement and amp settings for awhile and you still can't get close to the results you want, then you need either a different amp or different mics. strive to leave nothing to be fixed in the mix and you will get much better results.

Yep this is correct. I only mentioned fixing the mix because someone mentioned mastering and that's something I wanted to get out of the poster's head immediately. My distorted guitars improved significantly by doing two things. Find the sweet spot on my 4x12 which took a fair amount of trial and error, and selling my crappy marshall solid state amp. Now everything gets recorded through a Mesa. I can literally lay down tracks and not touch them. So in case the original poster didn't get it, remove the pedal from the chain and put your mic right up to the speaker, start from there and find your tone.

 

[Aviel]

Thanks for the tips!

The problem is that the pedal gives me the distortion, i dont use the amp's dist its not that good.

i will try to expirement with closer mics positoin as said above, but i still dont like the dirty sound that it gives- i guess thats my amp but i have no option to buy a new amp now, just bought my "studio" equipment.

Also i tried now recording direct from the zoom, into the preamp comperssor and the to the sound card and i think it sounds much better [see link below]

So- shall i try recording with a mic at all?

here is the direct record link ( i used 2 tracks for right channel, and 2 tracks for left channel, each with a little differant cabinet)

http://firstva.xoompages.com/begining-06.zip

 

[jonnyc]

Thanks for the tips!

The problem is that the pedal gives me the distortion, i dont use the amp's dist its not that good.

i will try to expirement with closer mics positoin as said above, but i still dont like the dirty sound that it gives- i guess thats my amp but i have no option to buy a new amp now, just bought my "studio" equipment.

Also i tried now recording direct from the zoom, into the preamp comperssor and the to the sound card and i think it sounds much better [see link below]

So- shall i try recording with a mic at all?

here is the direct record link ( i used 2 tracks for right channel, and 2 tracks for left channel, each with a little differant cabinet)

http://firstva.xoompages.com/begining-06.zip

A common misconception with a lot of newbs is they think they need more distortion to record when in fact less is more. If someone usually dials their distortion at 8-9 I'll turn it down to 5-6. Trust me the distortion sound coming from that zoom is no better than the distortion coming from your amp. Forget the pedal for now, just get your mic up to the grill, turn down your distortion and bass setting(around 3-4) and go from there. Trust me on this distorted guitars is the one thing I work my ass off to nail from the get go and as I've said earlier I don't have to do a damn thing to them in a mix, no compression, no eq, no nothing.


Sorry just read the rest. Direct in is just going to frustrate you even more. The best tones you'll ever get will be with an amp so really just work on getting it right on the amp.

 

[Aviel]

A common misconception with a lot of newbs is they think they need more distortion to record when in fact less is more. If someone usually dials their distortion at 8-9 I'll turn it down to 5-6. Trust me the distortion sound coming from that zoom is no better than the distortion coming from your amp. Forget the pedal for now, just get your mic up to the grill, turn down your distortion and bass setting(around 3-4) and go from there. Trust me on this distorted guitars is the one thing I work my ass off to nail from the get go and as I've said earlier I don't have to do a damn thing to them in a mix, no compression, no eq, no nothing.

OK i tried this, the sound is a bit more "warm" but i still get it very far away, and dirty, i used the amp dist, and reduced the gain a bit, and putted the condenser just on the grill but i still dont think that its a guitar sound anyone would want to hear on a record

here's the record:
http://firstva.xoompages.com/mic.zip

 

[travelin travis]

OK i tried this, the sound is a bit more "warm" but i still get it very far away, and dirty, i used the amp dist, and reduced the gain a bit, and putted the condenser just on the grill but i still dont think that its a guitar sound anyone would want to hear on a record

here's the record:
http://firstva.xoompages.com/mic.zip

Have you tried the dynamic mic alone? Your guitar sound in this clip is kind of sizzly / crunchy in the hi's. It does sound alot better than the previous attempts though. Keep hackin at it man.

 

[Mistral]

I listened to the last clip you posted.. dude this is perfectly salvageable, you just need a couple of slight tweaks.. first, regardless of what anyone has said about distortion, what this guitar clearly lacks is some gain and sustain (how long the note or chord sounds). first, make sure your guitar is set to the bridge pickup, and not the lead pickup. set all tones on the guitar to full, and the volume to full. next, turn up the gain/distortion on the amp maybe 2 notches from where it is now.. or look for the threshold where it is just crunchy enough, in your ears without being too noisy. next, turn up the bass until you feel like the guitar has some "beef" to it. If you can't get any more bass out of it at this stage, feel free to use some EQ or something like the BBE Sonic Maximizer on the guitar's channel in the recording program. Just don't overdo it.

 

[jonnyc]

I listened to the last clip you posted.. dude this is perfectly salvageable, you just need a couple of slight tweaks.. first, regardless of what anyone has said about distortion, what this guitar clearly lacks is some gain and sustain (how long the note or chord sounds). first, make sure your guitar is set to the bridge pickup, and not the lead pickup. set all tones on the guitar to full, and the volume to full. next, turn up the gain/distortion on the amp maybe 2 notches from where it is now.. or look for the threshold where it is just crunchy enough, in your ears without being too noisy. next, turn up the bass until you feel like the guitar has some "beef" to it. If you can't get any more bass out of it at this stage, feel free to use some EQ or something like the BBE Sonic Maximizer on the guitar's channel in the recording program. Just don't overdo it.

I really wouldn't take any of this advice. I've always found lower distortion settings and having the bass rolled off is a much more pleasing sound recorded than live. I think your most recent guitar sound is a big step ahead of where you were. Now I think you need to start working on layering your tracks. Try to play the identical thing 2 or three times and pan the different takes opposite of each other. You definately don't need anything like a sonic maximizer, I personally wouldn't ever have one in a recording chain. Here's a song with some decent guitar sounds that I recorded. These guitars have nothing done to them as far as plug ins go. The settings are Bass 3 Mids 4 Treble 5 Gain 3.

Make sure you get to the heavy part about 2/3's the way throught the song.

 

[Mistral]

So you've recorded some stuff with an electric guitar before.. that's dandy. Well, it's all I do. And I can tell you for a fact that this guy has too little gain. I didn't listen to the first clip but you're most likely equating more distortion to whatever the sound of that one was.. more distortion isn't a bad thing, TOO much distortion is... there should be enough to crunch, but not so much that when you strum a chord you cannot hear the individual notes.

 

[jonnyc]

So you've recorded some stuff with an electric guitar before.. that's dandy. Well, it's all I do. And I can tell you for a fact that this guy has too little gain. I didn't listen to the first clip but you're most likely equating more distortion to whatever the sound of that one was.. more distortion isn't a bad thing, TOO much distortion is... there should be enough to crunch, but not so much that when you strum a chord you cannot hear the individual notes.

Yeah well I only record rock bands so the first thing I ever learned to record was a distorted guitar. Why don't you post an example of your amazing guitar recording skills. And I love how you could tell he didn't have enough gain without the guitars even sitting in a mix. Also if you use a Maximizer then that tells me you have problems recording a good guitar tone. Why on earth would you need a sonic maximizer? BTW your little distortion lesson there is pretty much common sense and again, post some of your amazing guitar stuff since it's the only thing you record. Show the man what a distorted guitar should sound like.

 

[Mistral]

First off even if you don't agree with using a maximizer, my point was that his tone lacks body. My first advice in this regard was to raise the bass on the amp. And IF that wasn't possible (ie it's already full) THEN use EQ or a maximizer as needed in the mix. Notice the choices.. Using EQ doesn't always have desireable effects. BBE Sonic Maximizer in particular has seperate controls for "body" and for high end sparkle.. I am not suggesting he needs more high end. And by the way, using the bridge pickup is almost always better sounding for rhythms as there is more tension on the strings in that position which provides a crisper tone. It seems to me like you go and dismiss my whole post basically on a whim without any understanding of the mechanics behind what I am saying.

Of course I can tell he didn't have enough gain... you layer all you want but it's not going to make the guitar crunchier.. just muddier. Nothing is a substitute for getting the guitar sounding proper by itself.

And links to my recordings have always been available in my signature...

 

[jonnyc]

First off even if you don't agree with using a maximizer, my point was that his tone lacks body. My first advice in this regard was to raise the bass on the amp. And IF that wasn't possible (ie it's already full) THEN use EQ or a maximizer as needed in the mix. Notice the choices.. Using EQ doesn't always have desireable effects. BBE Sonic Maximizer in particular has seperate controls for "body" and for high end sparkle.. I am not suggesting he needs more high end. And by the way, using the bridge pickup is almost always better sounding for rhythms as there is more tension on the strings in that position which provides a crisper tone. It seems to me like you go and dismiss my whole post basically on a whim without any understanding of the mechanics behind what I am saying.

Of course I can tell he didn't have enough gain... you layer all you want but it's not going to make the guitar crunchier.. just muddier. Nothing is a substitute for getting the guitar sounding proper by itself.

And links to my recordings have always been available in my signature...

I don't write off everything you say. You seem more informed than most but you also seem to want him to record guitar just your way. I'm just trying to get him closer to what he wants, but we're both basically doing the same thing. You also need to consider that his amp may be less than stellar and maybe can't get the tone you're talking about.

 

[chessrock]

Yeah well I only record rock bands so the first thing I ever learned to record was a distorted guitar. Why don't you post an example of your amazing guitar recording skills. And I love how you could tell he didn't have enough gain without the guitars even sitting in a mix. Also if you use a Maximizer then that tells me you have problems recording a good guitar tone. Why on earth would you need a sonic maximizer? BTW your little distortion lesson there is pretty much common sense and again, post some of your amazing guitar stuff since it's the only thing you record. Show the man what a distorted guitar should sound like.

Aw.

Two bedroom shredder engineers arguing over who can get a more killer heavy guitar tone.

How cute.

.