Calling Harvey Gerst / Vocals / Room treatment

Mr. ROUSH

Mr. ROUSH

Active member
Hi Harvey.. I'm fairly new here.. I've been reading for years, but just started posting a few things here and their..

at any rate.. I just read your bio, and WOW! What an impressive resume.. So #1, I wanted to tell you how much I for one appreciate that someone of your status makes themselves availible in these forrums to answer questions etc..

So I have two questions for you.. #1.. I'm going to start using a U87 ai next week through a ffISA220.. Currently I have a make shift booth in my closet, but I fear it is too small.. and bringing the current mic (ma200) out into the room has introduced more noise then what I deem to be acceptable.. (mostly room reflections). So my questions comes in several parts I suppose.. #1.. how small is too small for a booth.. my closet is only about 3' deep.. it is recessed into the wall to the left of the entrance and is in total about 6' in length, 8' tall, with another door on the opposite wall, and the opposite end that opens up into the adjacent living area, the floor is carpeted.. the walls are textured.. I hope that makes sense.. so A. Is that too small? B. Could I improve the room enough with treatments to bring the mic in the room? It's a small room.. 8'x8'x8'.. C. where would you recommend placing the treatments for the purpose of recording vocals in the room? Is there such a thing as overdoing it or could I plaster every wall? Please forgive me if this question isn't reasonable to answer.. or if you've already answered this elsewhere..

and question #2.. Will you teach me everything you know!?!?!?!? I'm a good student!!! :)
 
Mr. ROUSH said:
Hi Harvey.. I'm fairly new here.. I've been reading for years, but just started posting a few things here and their..

at any rate.. I just read your bio, and WOW! What an impressive resume.. So #1, I wanted to tell you how much I for one appreciate that someone of your status makes themselves available in these forums to answer questions etc..

So I have two questions for you.. #1.. I'm going to start using a U87ai next week through a ffISA220.. Currently I have a make shift booth in my closet, but I fear it is too small.. and bringing the current mic (ma200) out into the room has introduced more noise then what I deem to be acceptable.. (mostly room reflections).

So my questions comes in several parts I suppose..

#1.. how small is too small for a booth.. my closet is only about 3' deep.. it is recessed into the wall to the left of the entrance and is in total about 6' in length, 8' tall, with another door on the opposite wall, and the opposite end that opens up into the adjacent living area, the floor is carpeted.. the walls are textured.. I hope that makes sense.. so

A. Is that too small?

B. Could I improve the room enough with treatments to bring the mic in the room? It's a small room.. 8'x8'x8'..

C. where would you recommend placing the treatments for the purpose of recording vocals in the room? Is there such a thing as overdoing it or could I plaster every wall?

Please forgive me if this question isn't reasonable to answer.. or if you've already answered this elsewhere..

and question #2.. Will you teach me everything you know!?!?!?!? I'm a good student!!! :)
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The noise and reflections are probably due to running the mic (and/or the preamp) too high. Make sure the U87 is in cardioid mode and try using the -10dB pad,

1A. It's not too small - if you have a lot of clothes in there. The trick with small spaces is to make them fairly dead. Nicely balanced reverberation is desirable in a good room, but that's hard to achieve in a small space. It's easier to just kill everything and add a decent reverb unit.

1B. You can use some acoustic office dividers, set in a "V" in the 8x8x8 room and that will cut down on the room reflections. Put the mic in the "V" near the apex and sing into the open end of the "V".

1C. You can build a smaller, 3-sided "room" out of 1" PVC pipe (Schedule 40) and cover it with packing blankets or bed spreads. It'll come apart easily when you need to store it. Make it 4' x 4' x 7' - open on one side.

Also, find posts by Ethan Winer on acoustic treatments. He has a great website on taming rooms at:

realtraps.com

Question #2. Since I've already forgotten most of what I knew, that shouldn't take too long.
 
Its pretty cheap to use a product called Fiberbrace on your walls to also tame the room...and it makes a cool bulletin board as well...its like $8 a 4x8' sheet at home depot.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
The noise and reflections are probably due to running the mic (and/or the preamp) too high. Make sure the U87 is in cardioid mode and try using the -10dB pad,

1A. It's not too small - if you have a lot of clothes in there. The trick with small spaces is to make them fairly dead. Nicely balanced reverberation is desirable in a good room, but that's hard to achieve in a small space. It's easier to just kill everything and add a decent reverb unit.

1B. You can use some acoustic office dividers, set in a "V" in the 8x8x8 room and that will cut down on the room reflections. Put the mic in the "V" near the apex and sing into the open end of the "V".

1C. You can build a smaller, 3-sided "room" out of 1" PVC pipe (Schedule 40) and cover it with packing blankets or bed spreads. It'll come apart easily when you need to store it. Make it 4' x 4' x 7' - open on one side.

Also, find posts by Ethan Winer on acoustic treatments. He has a great website on taming rooms at:

realtraps.com

Question #2. Since I've already forgotten most of what I knew, that shouldn't take too long.
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Excellent!! Thanks very much for the advice, I very much appreciate it! I will incorporate those suggestions and see how that does.. I can imagine that would help greatly. I also use an SE reflection filter, so all of that combined hopefully I'll get great improvement.. I'll hit that link too..

as for question #2.. you've probably forgotten more than I've even known.

thanks also to you darrin for the tip on home depot.. I may take a trip their this week.

Thanks again!
 
I can also add that acoustic ceiling tiles with fiberglass can be covered with cloth to also tame the space without intruding on it...and the neat thing is you can put any artwork on them you like...Id like to TyeDye mine...art helps creativity.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
I can also add that acoustic ceiling tiles with fiberglass can be covered with cloth to also tame the space without intruding on it...and the neat thing is you can put any artwork on them you like...Id like to TyeDye mine...art helps creativity.
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I don't have any fiberglass in the ceiling, but I do have a glass desk in the room.. I understand this can be very counterproductive.. Will throwing blankets over the desk be enough, or should I take the desk out?
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Id take it out if it isnt too hard....but my reference to the ceiling panels...were for hanging them on your walls.
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Oh wow.. that one blew right passed me Darrin.. I got you now. Good advice.. like the idea of designs on them.. Thanks again.

anyone want to buy a glass desk? lol
 
Harvey and Darrin have already given great advice, so I'll just add this: the smaller the space, the more critical broad band treatment becomes because the primary modal resonances get to be so high up in the frequency spectrum (post 250Hz) that they become extremely problematic. When you introduce 2" panels or (worse yet) foam into that equation what you get is a dramatic reduction in the high frequency decay times, but absolutely NO reduction in the sub 500Hz decay times. The audible result? Dry and tubby...ugh. If you're going to record in a closet, then I'd build some 4" panels and get them up on the walls and the ceiling. If you build them right they'll be effective well down below 150Hz, and they'll do everything that a 2" panel will do up higher.

Frank
 
Weasel9992 said:
Harvey and Darrin have already given great advice, so I'll just add this: the smaller the space, the more critical broad band treatment becomes because the primary modal resonances get to be so high up in the frequency spectrum (post 250Hz) that they become extremely problematic. When you introduce 2" panels or (worse yet) foam into that equation what you get is a dramatic reduction in the high frequency decay times, but absolutely NO reduction in the sub 500Hz decay times. The audible result? Dry and tubby...ugh. If you're going to record in a closet, then I'd build some 4" panels and get them up on the walls and the ceiling. If you build them right they'll be effective well down below 150Hz, and they'll do everything that a 2" panel will do up higher.

Frank
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Excellent.. thanks for the very detailed response.. that helps to put things in perspective in relation to making sure I don't trade one problem for another one. Thanks again!
 
...borrow an Shure SM7 if you can and give that a run...in a small, poorly treated room you may be very surprised what a $300 dynamic mic can achieve...the SM7 gets the nod for vocal tracking more often than not in my small home studio...and that's chosen over my MA-200, SP T3 and Rode K2 (among a handfull of very capable condenser mics)...the SM7 combined with this mic isolator works quite well:
http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9999-02645
 
kidvybes said:
...borrow an Shure SM7 if you can and give that a run...in a small, poorly treated room you may be very surprised what a $300 dynamic mic can achieve...the SM7 gets the nod for vocal tracking more often than not in my small home studio...and that's chosen over my MA-200, SP T3 and Rode K2 (among a handfull of very capable condenser mics)...the SM7 combined with this mic isolator works quite well:
http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9999-02645
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It's funny you brought that up.. It's actually next on my list.. I'm looking forward to trying it out.. I'm really buying it to have on hand but might have to steal it for myself as part of the secret sauce if it does me right.
 
Mr. ROUSH said:
It's funny you brought that up.. It's actually next on my list.. I'm looking forward to trying it out.. I'm really buying it to have on hand but might have to steal it for myself as part of the secret sauce if it does me right.
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...this isolator is quite useful, as it is adjustable and comes with a very substantial mic stand as well...but don't underestimate the value of a great dynamic mic like the SM7...I have done quite a bit of tracking with vintage Neumanns and the tracks I've been doing with my SM7 hold up very respectfully...I closed my commercial studio a few years ago and record vocals in a spare bedroom now...the combination of a nice preamp with ample gain, and an SM7 is quite amazing...all those years I chased the holy grail of condenser mics, only to find the sound in a $300 dynamic mic...;)
 
kidvybes said:
...this isolator is quite useful, as it is adjustable and comes with a very substantial mic stand as well...but don't underestimate the value of a great dynamic mic like the SM7...I have done quite a bit of tracking with vintage Neumanns and the tracks I've been doing with my SM7 hold up very respectfully...I closed my commercial studio a few years ago and record vocals in a spare bedroom now...the combination of a nice preamp with ample gain, and an SM7 is quite amazing...all those years I chased the holy grail of condenser mics, only to find the sound in a $300 dynamic mic...;)
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I already have the SE reflection filter, but something I didn't think of was setting it up that way with the boom angled down and the mic upright! I think you might have just solved a big problem I've been having.. although I'm not sure.. the Nuemann shock mount has caused me to have to keep the boom at 90 degrees, but that angle might work for an off axis approach especially..

I'm highly anticipating the SM7B.. What I think I'm going to do is set it up next to the Neumann and use them both at the same time.. I've heard great things about recording two tracks.. one with a condenser and one with a dynamic while recording two tracks simultaneously.. ever heard of this, or have you ever done it? At any rate.. I'm looking forward to working with that mic. Thanks for the info. pz.
 
with guitar amps maybe...Ive doubled vocals...but just layered different takes since vocals tend to be the last thing I work on...and Ill save takes to multiple tracks.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
with guitar amps maybe...Ive doubled vocals...but just layered different takes since vocals tend to be the last thing I work on...and Ill save takes to multiple tracks.
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Yeah I currently do that with vocals as well.. I'm curious though if having two of the exact same vocal take recorded on two different mics at once would be effective.. rather than recording a second take that is slightly different. I imagine the results would vary.. sometimes being slight different is desired too, so I guess it would really just depend on what you're going for.. I guess more I just wonder if it would sound good at all that way.. I'll let you know how it turns out for me.
 
Mr. ROUSH said:
I'm highly anticipating the SM7B.. What I think I'm going to do is set it up next to the Neumann and use them both at the same time.. I've heard great things about recording two tracks.. one with a condenser and one with a dynamic while recording two tracks simultaneously.. ever heard of this, or have you ever done it? At any rate.. I'm looking forward to working with that mic. Thanks for the info. pz.
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...actually, I frequently track vocals with 2 mics simultaneously..usually with the SM7 and a condenser of choice (often my Kel HM-7u)...I have posted about this process a few times previously...I use this attachment (see below) to mount the 2nd mic on the same stand...I place the SM7 on this arm, facing slightly upward, and the HM-7u on the boom arm from above, so that both mics are aligned, one above the other...

...if done properly, you can dial in the tone from either track to get a continously variable "dynamic/condenser blend"...great for vocals!...;)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BoomSide/
 

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kidvybes said:
...actually, I frequently track vocals with 2 mics simultaneously..usually with the SM7 and a condenser of choice (often my Kel HM-7u)...I have posted about this process a few times previously...I use this attachment (see below) to mount the 2nd mic on the same stand...I place the SM7 on this arm, facing slightly upward, and the HM-7u on the boom arm from above, so that both mics are aligned, one above the other...

...if done properly, you can dial in the tone from either track to get a continously variable "dynamic/condenser blend"...great for vocals!...;)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BoomSide/
Click to expand...

That is excellent!!! I'm stupid excited to try this out.. I'm glad it is something that has been done and tested.. excellent little boom attachment there too.. I'll order that with the mic.. Thanks very much!
 
Harvey I took your advice.. I built a vocal booth with pvc pipe and moving blankets.. I made it 4x4x8 and used 3/4" pvc.. do wish I had used 1".. should have looked back at this post.. none the less it works great! I'll post up a picture when I get a chance.. I ended up paying just over $100 for all the material. I would have spent much less had I not gotten some of the supplies from ACE hardware.. (way overpriced).. So I could have come in around $80 - $90.. and I had I made it just a bit smaller I could have come in under $70.. Got brand new moving blankets from UHAUL at $10/ a piece. (The guy who worked there said he thought that they were $15 a piece to the owner and that he'd made a mistake selling for $10ea. so I may have gotten lucky.. not sure) Anyway, thanks again. I'll get pics up soon. Later on.
 
Yeah...home depot is the place to get the building materials....moving blankets are allways nice to have arround...but building with the fiberbrace...hinges...and acoustic tiles and cloth might have saved you $50
 
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