building a isolation booth..please help...

[ShellShock]

I will be building a 4 by 4 foot wide booth that will be 7.5 feet high...The floor of the booth will be raised about 2 inches off the floor of my room, and the frame for the walls will seperate the plywood walls by 1 1/2 inches....

What can I put in or around the floor and walls to isolate myself...my main concern is sound going into the room below mine..

This booth is only for vocals...

I read some forums that said mass vinyl can work if placed below on in the booth...I saw some vinyl sheets at home depot but they were thin, if I put a couple of layers down would that work??

what other material could I use to isolate myself in the booth?

If someone can tell me the best plywood and isolation material to use that I can just pick up at a hardware store I would really appreciate it..

 

[jkokura]

Rockwool or 703 covered with Fabric...

There's a post around yours about absorbers...check that out for ideas as well.

Jacob

 

[ShellShock]

thanx but...

cant i just cover the interior walls with vinyl and the bottom of booth with it too?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

What can I put in or around the floor and walls to isolate myself...my main concern is sound going into the room below mine..

DECOUPLED MASS.

read some forums that said mass vinyl can work if placed below on in the booth...I saw some vinyl sheets at home depot but they were thin, if I put a couple of layers down would that work??

Not for transmission loss. Put a sheet or two of it over your head and listen to a radio. Mass loaded vinyl is a VERY expensive solution that is overated. Multiple layers of gypboard is the best bang for the buck material for mass. However, the transmission loss rating of the WHOLE assembly is what you need. Usually, a TWO leaf, MASS AIR MASS assembly with one leaf decoupled is the norm. For a booth, this means decoupling the inner leaf from the outer leaf by either double framing, or decoupling isolators. For ultimate transmission loss, floating an inner shell WITHIN an OUTER ENVELOPE is the method of choice. HOwever, you have a height limitation which requires extreme detailing of the assemblies to reduce the TWO LEAF ceiling geometry. Not only that, in a 4'x'4' perimeter geometry, standing wave formation and comb filter effects are TERRIBLE. It takes cladding the interior boundaries with a minimum of 3" thick absorption panels ove a 1" airgap on ALL interior surfaces . That reduces your interior dimensions by the thickness of a TWO DOUBLE WALLS AND 8" of absorption material.

what other material could I use to isolate myself in the booth?

Rockwool or 703 covered with Fabric...

"Net fact" strikes again. I'm sorry, but you are DEAD WRONG, rockwool or rigid fiberglass, or foam or any other "absorption" product does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for transmission Loss. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN FOR RECORD
rockwool or rigid fiberglass, or foam or any other "absorption" product does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for transmission Loss.

MASS MASS MASS.....and MORE MASS. That it. PERIOD. If you can decouple a second leaf, all the better.

If someone can tell me the best plywood and isolation material to use that I can just pick up at a hardware store I would really appreciate it..

There are none. Hardware stores don't sell drywall or MDF. Forget plywood. As far as "isolation" material, that doesn't exist. It is the use of common materials that are used in a TESTED ASSEMBLY that determines a materials "isolation" value. In other words, it is the ASSEMBLY SPECIFICATION that tells you how to build it. Once you understand these techniques, then you stand a good chance of succeeding. Otherwise, you are
SPITTING IN THE WIND, which usually lands back in your face. Here is an example of what I mean.

There is a lot more to it, especially decoupling and door/jambs/seals. Here is a detail of mine.

The only difference between mine and the last one on the right is my interior leaf is a "inside out" framing design. Its still a TWO LEAF design with the interior leaf decoupled by virtue of "FLOATING"THE WHOLE LEAF ENVELOPE.

 

[travelin travis]

Pure Discouragement

How about some possible advice instead of PURE DISCOURAGEMENT. Alot of folks, myself included, refer to home improvement stores as hardware stores. Beside that, my local (real) hardware store carries all types of building materials, just not in large quantities, which include plywood, gypsum, and mdf.

What Shellshock is asking for is advice on building a vocal booth, out of readily available materials, which will offer enough isolation to keep the sound in the same room in which the booth will reside. I don't think fancy CAD drawings are going to help his situation. Hell, I've been involved in plenty of work that required reading blueprints and I have no clue how that drawing offers any help to this problem.

Some things that caught my attention are that the isolation booth will be used for vocals only and the sound can't bleed to the room below. Seeing that the current room itself is providing SOME amount of isolation already, what materials and design would be required to provide the rest? I doubt that completely containing the sound within the booth is required. Within the room is all that's needed.

No matter how this thing is built, when finished, it's gonna require some sound treatment to make the sound quality acceptable. If alot of the sound is contained within the booth, it's gonna bounce off the walls and build up, which will create a muddy sound. The greater the isolation, the greater the sound treatment requirements. Seems to me that 703/rockwool would be an affordable solution for the sound treatment once the isolation solution is figured out.

So about how many decibels are bleeding to the room below? That's what we have to figure out. Then we can know how much isolation is needed. Maybe a booth with a STC 30 rating is all that's required. That would be nothing more than 2x4's and gypsum. Would a floating floor within the booth really be required seeing that the booth itself will be floating above the current floor?

What we know so far is that a booth constructed of gypsum or mdf, 2x4's, and 703 or rockwool, with a sealed door is required.

Sorry about spoutin so much here Shellshock. I'd just like to see some possible solutions offered rather than PURE DISCOURAGEMENT.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey Travis. I ANSWERED his questions He said NOTHING about a design. In fact, it sounded like he had the design downI Let me quote

I will be building a 4 by 4 foot wide booth that will be 7.5 feet high...The floor of the booth will be raised about 2 inches off the floor of my room, and the frame for the walls will seperate the plywood walls by 1 1/2 inches...

Now what part of that didn't you understand.

I tried to give him a clue to WHAT materials, and HOW to use it without going into the design phase. Besides, HOW did I discourage him. I gave him an illustration of how the best isolation assemblies are built, and a detail illustrating my detail for a DOUBLE door jamb using the concept. What more do you want from me. He DIDN"T ASK FOR A FUCKING DESIGN. HE ASKED SPECIFIC QUESTIONS WHICH I ANSWERED DIRECTLY AND TRUTHFULLY. What the fuck more do you want.

 

[pandamonk]

Calm Rick. Remember, like before, count slowly down from 10. "10,9,8,7.....". That's better isn't it. And yeh Travis, he did offer probably the best advice anyone in here could. Maybe it was a little too much if shellshock isn't used to reading that kind of stuff(noob), but if he wants to build an effective iso booth, he will have to learn to understand it.

 

[ShellShock]

thanx but im still lost(newbie)

okay so you guys all gave some good stuff but, my main concern is the sound leaking to the downstairs..Im not too worried about sound leaking into the room, just the floor.

Remember I am new to this so if you could use words I would understand by examples I would really appreciate it..thanks..

 

[jkokura]

If you're worried about sound leaking than you'll have to decouple (make it so that mass doesn't touch mass) the floor or the iso booth from your room's floor like rick said and then add mass (thick floor). Sorry about the rockwool idea, I thought you were asking about how to make the space inside the iso booth...using rockwool or 703 on the walls will help you make the space 'dead' - it absorbs some frequencies.

Jacob

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

my main concern is the sound leaking to the downstairs..Im not too worried about sound leaking into the room, just the floor.

If it leaks into the room, you have the same problem....remember, an upper floor is a DRUMHEAD. Both AIRBORN and STRUCTURAL born vibration can excite it. The point is to DECOUPLE the INTERIOR SHELL, so it CAN'T induce either airborn vibration into the surrounding airspace or direct structural vibration into the floor assembly. This means basically, building a "room within a room" type booth. However, this means mass, which translates to WEIGHT. Since this weight will be a mass point load the width and depth of the booth, you have NO WAY of knowing if the existing floor can structurally handle it.

This is why I have been telling people for years....if HIGH SPL(screaming vocals are HIGH SPL )isolation is what you need, and you are on an upper floor with a WOOD FRAMING MEMBRANE, be prepared for a reality check. Yes, you can build a somewhat compromised iso booth that has limited TRANSMISSION LOSS. This is also why I told you about MDF, which if you look at my detail, is the shiething material on BOTH walls. But because MDF is very heavy(approx 100lbs per 4x8 panel), especially 3/4" thick panels, for even a 4'x 4' booth, this will impose a whopping 800lbs, PLUS the framing AND occupant, which could concievably total 1200 lbs, on isolation POINT LOADS, its a no brainer that a floor could conciebably suffer catastrophic COLLAPSE!

Look, I understand HR enthusiasts needs. But because MOST people don't understand the implications of SOUND TRANSMISSION , they also don't understand what it takes to ISOLATE it. This stuff is NOT intuitive. If anything, it will DEFY the best thought out plan, if your understanding of the principles of vibration isolation is nil. Especially, transmission through a floor to a lower level. Even experts go to great lengths, including "floating" concrete slabs, to eliminate vibration. The hardest part to understand is LOW FREQUENCY Transmission, which even human vocal range can induce. However, rap, speech and low spl type music CAN be isolated IF you use the SAME decoupling principles, with lighter mass. The ONLY reason I suggested MDF, is you don't have to deal with the edges like you do with drywall. Simply caulk them. With drywall, you have to tape, mud AND caulk. Plus, you can crack the edges very easily. Or drive screws through it...or any number of things. But the downside of MDF is HANDLING and MACHINING it(cut it). Well, I'm done. Good luck with your project. If you have SPECIFIC questions, I'd be happy to answer. Even provide design help. But when people tell me they have such and such design for a vocal booth...I assume they know what the hell they are doing. Even if they don't know which material to use.
fitZ

 

[ShellShock]

hey...

so far i got a 4 x 4 frame for the floor and its 2 inches high..where can I go from here???

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

so far i got a 4 x 4 frame for the floor and its 2 inches high..where can I go from here???

That depends on a few things. First off, your frame on the floor doesn't mean a thing. At this point, in order for ANYONE to help you, you need to help US, by telling us everything you can.

1. Is this an apartment, or an upper room in a home?
2. What kind of existing floor STRUCTURE...ie...concrete or wood.
3. What room is below...bedroom? kitchen? family room..???
4. Where would you cut the materials...ie...framing and SHEETGOODS? And how large is the space(just lifting a sheet of 3/4"MDF or 5/8" sheetrock is a chore. Laying it out to cut and manuver can be a lesson in hindsight?
5. How? What tools do you have to machine these parts and materials?
6. Any construction or fabrication experience?
7. Can you read blueprints or plans? Do you understand section and details on drawings?
8. Where is this going to be assembled? How large is this space and where in the room is it going( ie...middle of the span places a larger percentage of the load on the support joists themselves rather than the walls that support them.
9. What kind of budget do you have? I can guarantee this will run about $1000, with framing, sheithing, caulking, hardware, door/jamb/latch/ threshold/ seals, insulation, absorption material, fabric, electrical, and....the biggie. Ventilation fan, ducting and grills, which we haven't even discussed yet. The fact is, when you "soundproof" an envelope, you "airproof" it as well. Singers like to breath. Not only that, people and lighting generate HEAT very quickly in an insulated and airtight enclosure. Therefore, you need to PENETRATE the leafs in such a way as to SUPPLY and REMOVE air at the same time, WITHOUT generating a flanking path for fan noise through the ducting. Not only that, where you place the fan unit has a direct bearing on your ductwork length, geometry, and air source. I can hear what you are thinking right now...I don ned no stinkin fan!! Well, maybe YOU don't. But since you haven't told us anything about WHO is going to use this(ie...clients?) I assume YOU will be engineering while someone ELSE is in the booth. And usually clients don't like to stop and open the door in order to get a breath of fresh air. No matter, you NEED it. But thats for you to decide. You asked. I answered.

Let me add this. There are a thousand ways people build their booths. Each is in direct relationship to the things I asked above. Compromise is the USUAL name of the game. However, if you are trying to record late at night, right over someones beroom, and your lease depends on not disturbing people, then the difference between success and failure is important. Thats why I suggest OPTIMUM isolation technique for the space and budget. Whether or not you need it, can build it, can afford it, or the existing structure can handle it, is totally in your ball park. If you only want a "quasi" iso booth, then I won't waste my time. ANYONE can suggest "moving blanket and PVC frame type assemblies. BUt if you are serious, and want to know HOW to do this, then we need to take a step at a time.

Ok, thats it for now. Once we know some things, we can better advise you on the plan. Later.
fitZ

 

[pandamonk]

Can hardboard be used in place of drywall or MDF to reduce weight if not so much isolation is required? Just a thought. I made a booth out of it back in the day when i didn't have a clue about acoustics and soundproofing. It was terribly made though so i don't know if it'd be good or not.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Can hardboard be used in place of drywall or MDF to reduce weight if not so much isolation is required?

Sure. ANYTHING can be used. Hell, use cardboard if you want. However, its all relative. Little mass means little transmission loss. Simple as that. Figure it this way. A simple residential wall like shown in the illustration above allows low music, speach, and environmental noise to go right through it. And it has TWO LEAFS of 1/2" drywall on it. Compare that to 1/4" hardboard(masonite). One word of advice. The AIRGAP between the two leafs need to be hermetically sealed, and filled with batt type insulation, which dampens the vibrations of the drywall, and to some extent, absorbs some of the sound as it transmits from one leaf to the other through the air in the gap. Even with DOUBLE WALL construction. The deeper the airgap, and the more mass, the better the transmission loss.
But there is lots more to it than that simple illustration. A booth is simply a small room. Imagine the innershell as a "floating room within a room" and you will begin to see what I'm talking about. Technically speaking, if your fabrication skills were exceptional, with MDF, you could actually build boxes(the outer and inner booth envelopes) and NOT EVEN NEED A FRAMEWORK! I use to work in a Store Fixture manufacturing facility, and we did it all the time. But your understanding of how to build needs to be real sharp. Screwing into the edge of MDF requires tapered drill bits to make pilot holes. Another thing is to use "drywall screws". They come in bulk and all different lengths and gauges.
You could also build these walls like a crate using 2x2 as the framework. Hell, MDF can even be used as studs, doubled layers of 3/4" equals a stud thickness. But how good are you. The squareness of your cuts and panels is a real big issue though when building large boxes this way. And you still need to frame for the door(maybe but not necessarally, it just depends on your design. Hell, even the door can be made of MDF. Just cutting MDF can be a lesson in hindsight though. Removeing a sawkerf wide strip of MDF while cutting can FILL a room with fine dust thats TERRIBLE to breath and settles on everything. Which means nothing if you have a well ventilated shop. But doing it in an apartment while living in it can be a real pain. Not to mention the noise of saws etc.

One word of warning. DON"T assume the panels from the factory are SQUARE or the nominal size they are called. In the USA, MDF panels come normally in 4'x8' sheets in many thicknesses. In reality though, industrial grade MDF is actually 49" x 97". I've seen people assume they are 48x96 and when it comes time to assemble, some pieces were oversize because of this. The factory makes it oversize so you can make a few cuts, and still end up with multiples of 16", 24", 48" or 96". I ALWAYS square the short edge relative to the long edge, with a router before cutting. Measure diagonally from corner to corner in both directions to check for squareness. Anyway, I'm out of time. Later guys. I'll give you some more tips when I can. In the meantime, check these out. They are fairly cheap, and are easy to use as the isolator to decouple the INNERSHELL FLOOR DECK from the OUTERSHELL ALIGNMENT DECK which lays on the existing floor. I'll draw a detail showing how to do this in my next post.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/hvac/kip.html

 

[pandamonk]

What if you build with two leafs of 1/4" hardboard which are decoupled from each other with a floating floor, like the attached pics. Would this help enough that with the rest of the room level of isolation, it would be adequade?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Pandamonk, there is only ONE way to know. Build it and see. There are NO tests that I know of that give a rating for this assembly. Thats WHY I showed the illustration. At least you know you will be close to those STC numbers if you use those assemblys. If you use UNTESTED assemblys, you are guessing.

 

[ShellShock]

Hey Rick!!!!

1.Is this an apartment, or an upper room in a home?

-apartment

2. What kind of existing floor STRUCTURE...ie...concrete or wood.

-concrete

3. What room is below...bedroom? kitchen? family room..???

-bedroom

4. Where would you cut the materials...ie...framing and SHEETGOODS? And how large is the space(just lifting a sheet of 3/4"MDF or 5/8" sheetrock is a chore. Laying it out to cut and manuver can be a lesson in hindsight?

-hope to be able to buy and cut material and home depot

5. How? What tools do you have to machine these parts and materials?

-18v electric screw driver

6. Any construction or fabrication experience?

-very little

7. Can you read blueprints or plans? Do you understand section and details on drawings?

-very little again

8. Where is this going to be assembled? How large is this space and where in the room is it going( ie...middle of the span places a larger percentage of the load on the support joists themselves rather than the walls that support them.

-in my apartment I hope

9. What kind of budget do you have?

-500

(I will do most of the recording during reasonable hours of the day)
thinking about using this as mass..what do you think??
http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=322&

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Good day to you Shellshock. Thats an unusual screen name. Well, thanks for the answers. That gives me a better overall picture of the situation. This helps make decisions, of which I can see a few that we need to discuss right now. But first, I need to ask some very important questions that will help with some other decisions.

First off, what tells you the floor is concrete? This is very important. Since you live in an apartment, and you are on an upper floor, you may be at risk of breaking your lease because of bringing something heavy into the apartment. I've personally knew a person who brought a used waterbed into an upper apartment and built a frame for it himself. While he was at work the waterbed developed a leak and ruined the drywall ceiling in the apartment below. His lease specifically forbid them. He was immedietly evicted. So, you must be aware of the consequences.

Second
What tells you that the neighbor below can hear you WITHOUT a booth.
Have you had any complaints? Or are you just trying to prevent noise
transmission before you even know you need it? Are the walls concrete
as well? Do you have neighbors on the same floor adjacent to this room
where the booth will be? If so, and the walls are NOT concrete, it would
be highly more likely that they could hear you before the neighbors below
could because of the concrete floor. This will determine our choice of
of wall assembly because of transmission through a nearby Apartment
wall.
Here is the deal though. Without knowing if INDEED the neighbor
below or beside you can hear you, and at what DB level it occurs, you really have no idea of the assembly TRANSMISSION LOSS RATING that you need to achieve your goal. There isn't a person alive who could correctly guess the MINUMUM rating you need.
Soooooooo....in order to correctly define WHAT it is you need, this is what you HAVE to do. You need to find out from your neighbor at WHAT level he can hear you. The only way to do that is to play some music SIMILAR to what you will be recording in the booth, WHILE the neighbor is listening below.
Slowly increase the volume from your monitors untill he can hear it. This will give you an idea of what volume we have to keep from transmitting. But its not that simple. How do you define a "volume". With a SOUND LEVEL METER. Thats how.

But this involves many things that have a bearing on HOW you monitor, and HOW you mix. Why build a booth to isolate the LIVE sound, when you MAY be monitoring over speakers at the same volume as the live sound in the booth..AND, your monitors MAY be sitting on a DIRECT STRUCTURAL FLANKING PATH to the floor But see, I don't know. Thats why you have to tell me EVERYTHING!! Otherwise, we could be spittin in the wind!!
Shellshock, this is NOT about just building a booth. It's about defining the overall PROBLEM, and finding a solution to it.

Let me put it this way. Its like my sister. She had a fuel leak in her car. The mechanic told her it was a fuel line from the fuel pump to the carb. They changed it. It still leaked. Then they said it was the fuel pump itself. They changed it. It still leaked. They tightened and tightened the connections and it STILL leaked. The only place they could see the fuel was dripping off the lowest point of the line from the fuel tank. They gave up. I fixed it. Because my dad is a mechanic and he always told me. YOU HAVE TO LOOK!!! So thats what I did. I took a small mirror, and looked at that line all the way around it clear back to the tank. I found a spot where because of vibration, a small clamp had rubbed to the point it barely penetrated the line. The fuel leaked out, and ran down the line to the lowest point and dripped. This is what we have to do! We HAVE to know what we are dealing with in order to solve it...understand? Ok. So, tell me as much as you can. Untill then, have a nice day.
fitZ

 

[ShellShock]

Hey Rick!!!

I lifted up the carpet and found out it was concrete...oh and Im renting the place from my folks(if that helps any).

Im also going to be doing my editing and mixing through really good headphones(not sure which one that is yet..ideas?)..So its not the concern of them hearing loud music..its the concern of the people below hearing my voice, and Im a rapper( we dont do the much yelling )..

there is NOT another apartment next to the room Im putting the booth in either, just one below it.

I read the vocals to be -6 db in the room when you could actually start hearing something downstairs. Im pretty sure I did it right. *new guy*

 

[c7sus]

-6 is plenty.

-12 leaves you some headroom for processing later.

I'd skip the booth unless you need to isolate lawnmowers or airplanes taking off or something.