Behringer

[dinorocker]

I see a lot of people spouting the same lines about "all Chinese companies using the same manufacturing plants," etc. Although this is often true about Chinese manufacturing (not just pro audio or even electronics in general. Stuff like watches, and clothes go by the same process), if you watch that AudioTechnology Behringer City video that WeThePeople linked, you'll note that Behringer has their own factories now... in fact, they own everything (in the manufacturing process) end-to-end.

You may want to reconsider those statements. I *had* watched the video, and saw what I expected to see - apart from some automation, a lot of stuff was being done by hand - assembly, soldering, everything. There is almost no way by which you can guarantee consistency of manufacture in this way. While Behringer may own the facilities, the process itself is exactly the same as in most mass manufacture facilities in China.

That said, I have had problems with some of my Behringer gear (mixers in particular, but also a 4-channel DI) and no problems with others (my BX4500H for example gets regular use and has had no problems so far). It seems to me that the consistency of quality seems to vary by product.

See my comments above about non-automated manufacture.

The design copying issue I'm undecided on. I've wavered back and forth on that for a while and will have to do more research and thinking before I'm convinced, but I do agree that it's strange that Behringer gets a bad rap for copying products while many, many other companies in the industry get away with it without most people blinking an eye.

If you look closely, all the comments of "copying" come out of forums like these, where people who see two devices apparently alike immediately accuse the non-American one to be a copy .

People in the business, however, understand the reality - that one can very legitimately purchase schematics for a device, complete with cabinet designs and everything else, and proceed with manufacture.

There is really only so much you can do in the $100 price range for products to differentiate yourself and still turn a profit.

 

[kabuko]

Oh, sorry I was unclear here. I didn't mean to say that Behringer's factories are any different (in type/quality) from any other Chinese manufacturing plant. What I meant was that they're not literally/physically the same plant. In China there are lots of factories where they'll make some particular item for a foreign company during the day, and then at night crank out the same item with a different label (or unlabeled) and sell that themselves. So I wasn't saying anything about Behringer's quality, but rather that they're not doing that sort of copying at least.

Also, of interest (at least to me) is that I've noticed quality vary by product more than by item.

 

[YeshuasFan]

I don't know if readers would consider this a quality control issue or simply a paperwork oversight, but it seems I recall an episode about 18 months ago or so when Behringer had to recall a ton of equipment the FCC said was defective because Behringer failed or, more accurately, refused, to provide documentation that several of their mixers (every one with built in FX) were in compliance with FCC standards. In several cases, they falsely claimed the mixers were in compliance when they had not even submitted them for testing.
They also had to pay several million $$ in fines for their arrogance/stupidity.

As far as ripping off other manufacturers' designs, could any company get more blatant in terms of patent infringement than Behringer has managed with their Xenyx line of mixers? (Mackie Onyx, anyone?)

 

[hoops]

I think that Behringer should focus on there decent products and dump the rest. I think they are spreading themselves too thin. How about taking some of there lines and improving them. They were a better product back in the early 90's when they just did pro audio.

 

[dinorocker]

I think that Behringer should focus on there decent products and dump the rest. I think they are spreading themselves too thin. How about taking some of there lines and improving them. They were a better product back in the early 90's when they just did pro audio.

It's a vicious cycle. In order to remain competitive, every manufacturer of audio equipment has to have some offerings in the low end market to act as a foot in the door. Newcomers tend to build "brand loyalty" at the low end and as long as they are happy, will also retain that brand loyalty as they become more proficient and start buying more expensive equipment (where the manufacturers make their money).

You will notice that Behringer isn't alone in this ploy - everyone else is, too.

There are some manufacturers who *only* cater to the high-end markets, but they do, of course, have the burden of establishing themselves there and overcoming the "sticker shock" effect.

 

[Nameless]

It's a vicious cycle. In order to remain competitive, every manufacturer of audio equipment has to have some offerings in the low end market to act as a foot in the door. Newcomers tend to build "brand loyalty" at the low end and as long as they are happy, will also retain that brand loyalty as they become more proficient and start buying more expensive equipment (where the manufacturers make their money).

You will notice that Behringer isn't alone in this ploy - everyone else is, too.

There are some manufacturers who *only* cater to the high-end markets, but they do, of course, have the burden of establishing themselves there and overcoming the "sticker shock" effect.

The problem with that is when someone new buys a peice of their cheap gear, tries it out, and come to find out...it doesn't work.

It's Behringers' quality control that gives them such a bad rep. When their products work, they are good (for the money, which isn't saying much). I've used a couple of their mics and they're a little noisy but are okay for some things. I wouldn't want to use one of their mixers. I've heard their AD800 or whatever it's called is actually pretty decent, and I own a pair of their Truth monitors, which I think do the job just fine and not 'just for the money'. Once you learn them they're perfectly suitable for mixing.

Edit: Before buying ANY of their gear, at least look over a lot of reviews on sites and on this message board or other message boards. Don't expect quality, but at least to get an idea how many people had problems with the products. So at least you know your chances of getting a DOA.

 

[dinorocker]

Edit: Before buying ANY of their gear, at least look over a lot of reviews on sites and on this message board or other message boards. Don't expect quality, but at least to get an idea how many people had problems with the products. So at least you know your chances of getting a DOA.

Actually, the basic guideline is - inform yourself before you put down your money. And don't just look for (counter)recommendations - look for things that you should *expect* to see (and things you *shouldn't*). That will equip you to make the selection, and also to detect a lemon if you are handed one.

As I have said before - I haven't had any issues with Behringer equipment (apart from one blown valve, which I suspect was my own fault), but there have been others who *have* had issues. Because the experience is so varied (and not just from Behringer, so let's be honest here), knowing what to expect (or not) is probably more valuable than someone telling you "buy this, don't buy that".

 

[hoops]

Good point dinorocker.

 

[cusebassman]

Actually in some cases none of what you say is true. Although I don't use for much else than scratch tracks and a talkback channel the ada8000 is a well built piece of gear. It's ran the same for nearly 4 years and so has the 8 channel headphone amp I bought from them. In fact the preamps in the ada8000 stacked up against the Presonus Eureka very nicely, nice enough that I sold the Presonus. However now that I have a True Systems P8 all my prosumer gear sounds kind of lacking.

These are the two pieces people will say are decent. The mixers are shite. Noisy and harsh, cheap preamps.

Sorry, but its true. I wouldn't go for a small Yamaha mixer either - those are very muddy sounding, even with good mics plugged straight in. Not sure what other brands to suggest, as I now use that largest Yamaha MG series dealie, which IS very good sounding... odd how the smallest mixer in a line is pretty crappy, and the biggest works fine.

 

[T Sat]

I have no problem with their gear, I have a Xenyx board and I bought it after I saw reviews from people would had bought Mackie gear and weren't happy with it and others that had bought Xenyx and were happy. I also have Composer compressor, their new condensor mic and an effects pedal. I see a lot of gripes from those that had one bad experience or the thats a copy crowd that never owed any. I have been playing music for 40 years and have some nice old equipment and frankly I don't care if someone copies someone else, thats life get over it and make music.

 

[The Axis]

I have owned and used the Behringer mic preamp, the digital multiband equalizer, and their multiband compressor.

They have always worked exactly as advertized and produced quality sound.
The multiband digital compresssor in particular is a product for which there isn't even any competing product (Yes, I also owned the TC Electronics version...it is crap) The Behringer is totally adjustable in every parameter and in independent stereo channels. It is great.

You notice that most of the croticism of Begringer is sort of a vehement hatred based on political opinions. But why don't people complain when DBX/Digitech directly copies the ART Tube MP ?

Behringer is good equipment that snobs resent because it is so cheap.

I have also owned Great River and Earthworks preamps and a Mackie VLZ 1602 mixer, so it is not like I haven't compared to other equipment. The only thing that was ever really so bad sounding that I actualy returned it was a Ashley parametric EQ.

 

[boingoman]

As far as quality control, I would bet that on the whole Behringer doesn't have horrible failure rates. And during years of retail MI sales and repairs, it was my experience that people often raised more of a stink when their cheap shit went down than when their more expensive stuff did.

 

[The Axis]

Bingo !
If something expensive breaks, people contact the manufacturer and get it replaced, then rave about the "great support".

If something cheap breaks, people throw it away and bitch about the "cheap crap".

If something expensive sounds colors the sound, it has "a distinctive character". If something cheap colors the sound, it is "cheap sounding".

 

[amra]

I have had 4 pieces of Behringer gear: 2 MDX2200 Compressors, a MON800 controll room/talkback device, and a V-AMP Pro. I have never had any quality issues or problems with any of them. They do their jobs. I guess I could have paid a lot more money for stuff that does the same thing - that was mass produced in China as well. I guess then I could come on here pretend that my mass produced, 'made in china' stuff was better then yours, like so many here do.

 

[dinorocker]

As far as quality control, I would bet that on the whole Behringer doesn't have horrible failure rates. And during years of retail MI sales and repairs, it was my experience that people often raised more of a stink when their cheap shit went down than when their more expensive stuff did.

Bingo !
If something expensive breaks, people contact the manufacturer and get it replaced, then rave about the "great support".

If something cheap breaks, people throw it away and bitch about the "cheap crap".

If something expensive sounds colors the sound, it has "a distinctive character". If something cheap colors the sound, it is "cheap sounding".

Both these comments represent seriously good analysis. They should be captured, put in a spray can, and liberally sprayed in all the forums where such "brand bashing" goes on.

 

[dementedchord]

sorry guy's but ya just dont know what your talking about... after do ing repairs for over 15 yr's and being certified warrantee for most brands encluding crown qsc kurz korg fender boogie yamama soundcraft a+h... getting the idea???? it's crap... and if your ok with crap then cool we got no arguement... but if you in ignorance are suggesting to other users on this board that they should purchase this shit then YOU ARE DOING A DISERVICE to them.... i really think your just rationalizing having been screwed as somehow worth it...

 

[bilco]

.....the crack cocaine of audio gear...... "Must have more....."

I have owned a 24 channel mixer, 2 channel mixer, the ADA8000 and a direct box. The direct box was the only one that quickly failed to live up to my expectations. The others all did exactly what they were supposed to do.

The GC rep who sold me the ADA8000 made it a point to let me know that they are pretty bad about losing channels, but I have not had any problems with mine. The preamps and AD conversion are okay. I have cut demos with Behringer gear that I can't complain about. I wouldn't attempt to cut a real CD with it, but then again, I wouldn't engineer a serious recording project anyway.

I will probably buy their headphone distribution amp.

Dan Richards likes one of their mic preamps okay for budget gear, so how are you gonna argue with that?

I do need a new bass amp and I am thinking about Behringer because of the price point, but I really need something that I can count on working every time I go to a gig, so I dunno........ That is the area of my music that nets me the most income and I need the best tools I can afford in that area.

As for the "Made in China" crap argument, my PTLE gear is all made in China too. As much as I love it, (and I really DO love my Mbox and Digi001,)the Digi002 owners who have had power harness failures can't really cast any stones at Behringer.......

bilco

 

[dinorocker]

sorry guy's but ya just dont know what your talking about... after do ing repairs for over 15 yr's and being certified warrantee for most brands encluding crown qsc kurz korg fender boogie yamama soundcraft a+h... getting the idea???? it's crap... and if your ok with crap then cool we got no arguement... but if you in ignorance are suggesting to other users on this board that they should purchase this shit then YOU ARE DOING A DISERVICE to them.... i really think your just rationalizing having been screwed as somehow worth it...

Strange that you should assume that any of us have been screwed over and are rationalizing. If you read this thread (and I suspect you haven't, actually) you will find that most people using Behringer equipment are actually quite happy with it and haven't had too many (if any) failures.

Maybe you should consider it from this perspective - as a guy who *repairs* stuff, you are not likely to have many people come to you with *working* stuff, right? You are likely to see only bust equipment, and are forming opinions without taking into account that you are only seeing a small percentage of the total stuff sold (though 100% of what you see is bust).

 

[jonnyc]

Strange that you should assume that any of us have been screwed over and are rationalizing. If you read this thread (and I suspect you haven't, actually) you will find that most people using Behringer equipment are actually quite happy with it and haven't had too many (if any) failures.

Maybe you should consider it from this perspective - as a guy who *repairs* stuff, you are not likely to have many people come to you with *working* stuff, right? You are likely to see only bust equipment, and are forming opinions without taking into account that you are only seeing a small percentage of the total stuff sold (though 100% of what you see is bust).

Ignore him, he's an ass more often than not on this board and I've learned it's better to not converse with him. He's an "I'm always right" kinda guy.

 

[dementedchord]

Ignore him, he's an ass more often than not on this board and I've learned it's better to not converse with him. He's an "I'm always right" kinda guy.

well johnny not sure why ya got it in for me and dont really care i suppose... perhaps the the fact that i only post in threads that i actually have some knowledge of leads you to beleive i'm a know it all... if you do a search of the threads i have posted on you'll not find many where there are errors... seems i remember a mic thread i had a misunderstanding about... and if i dont have firm info to share i preface comments with things like IIRC or seems to me that sorta thing... but whatever....

and as to the supposed berh bashing... really what kind of value could the opinion of some one who used to work on them possibly be???? he probably wouldn't say know what % of the product out the door got returned or anything like that... surely not.... but you go ahead with your little reach around....