Apogee Rosetta 800 vs RME Fireface

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braker

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Hi,

I would love to hear any advice regarding the difference in sound quality between the Apogee Rosetta 800 and the RME Fireface.

I'll explain my use of the convertor: I'm a DJ who is used to playing vinyl for the last 13 years. Recently I switched to the digital domain DJing with a laptop running Ableton Live, however I am greatly concerned about the sound issues since I love the warmth of my vinyl collection and hate to loose that.

At the moment I'm using my RME RPM (similar to the RME Multiface) to record my vinyl (not using the RPM phono preamps which I didn't like, but instead using the phono preamps on my old Numark DJ mixer which sound very warm IMO) onto my computer and than play it back using Ableton Live.

Although I retain some of the warmth and three dimentional sound of my vinyl that way, still some is obviously lost.

Even though I think I have a very sensitive pair of ears with regarding to sound quality and timbre, I have to admit that the difference between 44.1kHz to 96kHz recording of the vinyl (that's the maximum with my RME) is hardly noticable. And while the difference between 16bit and 24bit is more apparent (especially in the low end), it is still not as dramatic as I would have hoped.

Anyhow, I'm considering an upgrade. Also because of the quality of the convertor and the resolution and also because I realised I need at least 4 stereo outputs. That's because of the difference between digital summing and going into one or two analog channels on my DJ mixer (playing 4 layers from my software) and between sending 4 individual outputs into 4 different channels on the DJ mixer and doing analog summing. To my ears the difference is huge, not to mention the difference between EQing the different layers using my software EQ or EQing them using my analog mixer 4 different EQ strips - again a huge difference.

I am not an expert in convertors but from what I have checked so far it seems that two viable options for me are the RME Fireface and the Apogee Rosetta 800.

So - having in mind that I only need this for recording my vinyl collection and than playing back using Ableton Live on my laptop (which has Firewire), and that playback will be maximum 4 outputs at the same time: Do you think these are the units for me and which one sounds better (forget about the money issue for the moment, I want to know what will sound best)?

Also, do you think the higher resolution of 192kHz might help me retain more of what I like in my original vinyl?

Thanks alot and sorry for the long post, any opinions will be welcomed.

Braker
 
personally I don't think it will make much of a difference at all. If you are using the phone preamps on your DJ mixer than you probably like them better because of the way they change your sound. I think that the nicer converters will take you in the opposite direction. It sounds like you are not after the ACTUAL sound of your vinyl, but the changed sound due to the Numark ohone amps and circuitry. Generally this would be considered to be of less quality, but that is subjective. All that really matters is what sounds better to you. Due to this, I would say you are better off to get the RME and spend the difference in cost on something else.
 
Thanks xstatic,

I do understand the logic of what your saying, however the sound I get when I record my vinyl with my current RME card (at 16 or 24 bit and at 44.1 or 96kHz) is pretty close to the sound I get when I just play the vinyl, but not close enough to my ears. The highs are less transparent and sweet, lows are less deep and the whole thing sounds a bit less punchy (I realize I'm using subjective terms here and as I said I don't claim to be a pro sound engineer or anything like that but I am very sensitive to the sound timbre both at home and in the club). So what I was wondering was if 192kHz might bring me even closer to the original and if the Apogee card might do an even closer replica compared to the RME.
 
My point was that the RME is probably letting you hear more what the vinyl actually sounds like. In this case, that may not be a good thing. A home receiver or a DJ mixer is more than likely adding something to the signal chain that you like to hear better. This is not actually a bad thing, but more a fact of life. I just see no real benefits of a 192khz file on a source that already has a very limited fidelity.
 
Sorry for being a little slow about this, but I don't get it: How would the RME let me hear more of what the vinyl actually sounds like if it is fed by the signal going through my Numark mixer which - as you say - colours the sound already? It should let me hear the sound it was fed and should do as close a job as possible in replicating that sound, right?

And btw I go from my DJ mixer through XLRs straight into my Dynaudio amplified monitors. And when I hear the recorded file I hear it back through my mixer and into my monitors..

So at the moment at least - what I'm looking at is how to improve that replica which is close but not close enough to my ears.
 
Sorry for any confusion.... I meant that if you were going from turntable straight to the RME phone preamps. Assuming their phone preamps are in the same build and quality of the rest of their equipment. The sound straight to the RME is probably more of what the vinyl actually sounds like. However, when you run through your DJ mixer you are filtering the vinyl through what is most likely a lower quality circuit that imparts a sound of its own to the vinyl. If that sounds better to you (which it obviously does), then that is the route you should go in my opinion. In the end, all that matters is what sounds best to you, and there is nothing wrong with doing what you need to do to get it to sound that way.

I normally would not reccomend against Apogee. I know they are better converters than the RME (which are actually really decent converters). I just think that recording at 192khz with vinyl as a source signal is really overkill. A lot of the benefits of 192khz will probably be lost due to the low fidelity of the source signal (vinyl in general). I am sure that the Apogee converters will probably sound better, but given the source signal I think that the real differences between Apogee and RME, and between 192 khz and 44 khz will be greatly minimized in this particular situation. I personally think that your DJ mixer is changing the way the vinyl sounds which is why the phono preamps on your DJ mixer may sound better to you. In this case the DJ mixer seems to be changing it in a way that you like better. I say go with what you know works. Personally, save the money on the converters and put it into something else you can use:) Maybe you would want to look into a high end phon preamp like an NAD, ADcom, or Bryston:)
 
The obvious test would be to eliminate the mixer. Try going straight from the RME (TRS to XLR Monster studiolink cable or similar quality) output to the monitor input. A mixer can color the sound in a bad way if it is el cheapo. Or get some Lavry convertors and think nothing more of it. I don't think 192 will help you much either. Now 384K is a different story......... ;)
 
OK, now I understand better, thanks.

I'm beginning to realise I should get back to the drawing board with all these decisions.

One point that is clearer to me now is that what I'm doing is a bit odd: I am passing the original vinyl through the circuitry of my Numark mixer into my convertor and then playing the file back from the convertor and through that same Numark circuitry again..

And I pretty happy about the results but not happy enough because the sound doesn't sound as good as when I just play the vinyl through the Numark.

So all this doesn't make much sense, does it? I guess going through the circuitry twice is useless and probably harming the sound too.

But.. the RME phono pre's sounded dry and dull to me when I was playing the file I recorded straight into them and back into my Numark mixer.. Also I just realized that when I did this test it was with the RME RPM old driver which had some sound problems that were corrected with the driver updated version, so I guess I should recheck this. I'll do that tomorrow and post my findings, though another thing that bothers me with the RME pres is that they don't have a dedicated gain control (only two options I think), and whenever I record using my Numark mixer I always take time to adjust the gain just right to get the best sound (Numark's manual says to adjust until the second red led lights up occasionaly in order to get the most punchy sound)..

Anyhow, if indeed going through the mixer circuitry twice is a stupid idea, maybe I should try and get the best dedicated phono preamp I can find that will colour the sound as less as possible and leave the colouring stage to my mixer during playback?

And Reggie: you are right I should also check the sound without going through the mixer, I'm going to buy the cables for that and check it.
 
Just rechecked those RME pres - still get the same sound - duller. And I was A/B/Cing with 2 files (one recorded via the Numark pres, another via the RME pres) and the orginal vinyl: The file recorded via the Numark pre's sounded closer to the original vinyl played via the Numark mixer. In both the vinyl itself and in teh file recorded via the mixer pre's there was more sweetness compared to the duller sound of the file recorded with the RME pres.

So I really don't know what to think. I just can't tell what recording using a really good dedicated phono preamp would sound like.
 
Right, I'm not saying the RME phono preamps are going to be great. I say use the Numark pres if you like them best, connect the RCA or whatever out of the Numark and into the RME RCA jacks. Go into the HDSP settings on your computer and change the input to line (I don't know whether 0 or -6 would work best for you), record the stereo signal at 44.1/24 or 88.2/24 or 96/24, play back the recorded file in your computer by going from the TRS outputs on the RME into the XLR jacks on your monitors. Use the best cables you can afford for this.

If this doesn't suit you, about the only thing to blame is that you just don't like RME convertors for some reason.
 
My point was that by running through the Numark at all, is that the Numark is probably changing the sound. If you like that sound better, than that is what you should use:) The RME however is likely letting you hear more what the vinyl sounds like, well the Numark is changing what it actually sounds like (due to notoriously cheap circuitry). End result though? Who cares if it is a "cheap" circuit. If it makes what you hear sound better, than use it:) It sounds to me like you already have what you need, and are just worried whether or not you are doing it right. In audio there is no right or wrong, only what sounds better:) Actually, I guess there is a wrong, but that only implies if it doesn't work.
 
check RME RPM!!!!
Great dj unit!
High quality from RME as usual.
 
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