Apex 460 capacitor change?

  • Thread starter Thread starter EdgeGuy
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Great session

12 hours of recording, most of it using the 460. Same loud vocalist but no overload problem! Even the singer noticed the Black Gate difference. Don't know why it works but it does.

Must.....sleep......now.
 
The Ansar 1.0 now open

Woke up this morning and listened to what was recorded yesterday. The singer -crashed out on the couch- woke up and we listened to the music. There is nothing like the morning after prospective. Fresh ears, coffee brewing.

This is really not a bad mic. Not perfect but nice.

Start another all day recording including the guitarist.
Got a chance to record severely distorted guitar doing feedback for a song intro. Pure noise and pandemonium and the 460 made it sound good! Not what I was looking for but the guitarist loved it.
I wanted a something terrible sounding.
I wanted the mega horrendously sounding Beta57! Worst mics(2) I ever owned.
I figured finally it will come in handy. But nooooo...... The guitarist loved the 460. I suggested he use his Les Paul - knowing full well he didn't bring it. He agreed that the Les Paul would be best. Next week when he brings his Paul my 460 will be broken, lost or stolen. Too nice sounding, really.

More vocals. O.K. the Ansar cap has opened up and the low end is all there.
This mics limitations get more clear to me every time one of it's limitations gets removed.
The only way I can describe the problem with this mic is... its- dynamically challenged. This is a problem with the electronics. I will replace a capasitor or resistor or two but I won't replace the capsule or the transformer.
The capsule and the transformer aren't the best, but they are not the problem.
Not this problem anyway.

The vocal sound was present and alive. No hint of overloading, just a bit held back.
Com'on guys. What cheap component in this mic is holding it back?
mbrebes, I think from what you were talking about before , that you have the key. What component is choking this mic?
Something isn't allowing enough electricity to flow at higher energy levels.
A resistor?
mbrebes?

So close.

Slipping away.
3.30..... Am
Must..........sleep..........must................................................
 
EdgeGuy said:
This is a problem with the electronics. I will replace a capasitor or resistor or two but I won't replace the capsule or the transformer.

The capsule and the transformer aren't the best, but they are not the problem. Not this problem anyway.

The vocal sound was present and alive. No hint of overloading, just a bit held back.

Com'on guys. What cheap component in this mic is holding it back?
Click to expand...

The capsule! Sorry!!! That's the BIGGEST flaw in this mic! (and by the way, it IS part of the electronics!) Alctron doesn't make great capsules. They don't tune them or drill them well. They don't even glue the mylar to the retainer ring. They just strech it over the backplate and tighten it down. When I built my Ela M copy I had the same problems until I put in a 797 capsule. BIIIIG difference.

Resistors don't effect sound unless you are tuning the voltage. I don't believe that's the problem here. Michael has changed the capsules and now has wonderful sounding mics. He owns a 414 and the U87 and M147. If he can compare them to those after only modding the capsule and trafo, then I believe him. Dave Thomas up in Canada pretty much concurs and believes the circuit is a decent one with only minor changes neccessary.

I just won a replacement capsule from a CAD E350 I am going to try. I will let you know the differences.
 
OK, I need some help. I changed my tranformer over the weekend to the CM2480. I'm using a Mullard 12ATY and I'm liking it. I've got it in our Foley room at work, and looking at the noise floor on Waves PAZ meter. I've got some noise.. like 30db more noise floor than the rest of the mic from 40hz on downward. It's not a hum, it's just picking up alot of really low. It's about at -40db at 40hz and then starts going down to about -75db or -80db for the rest of the frequency response. This noise floor isn't the result of the trans change, as I've had this before. It's noisier on Omni and quieter on figure 8. I've got a 1uf 350 on C8. Is there a way to but a high pass filter in by changing cap value? Lower value?
 
Never mind. I had a brain lapse. I put up our Schoeps collete next to the Apex and it's showing the same noise floor. It must be the airconitioning vent I'm picking up.
 
OK, just an update. This new transformer is giving the mic a more refined sound. I'm gonna do one more mod. New capsule.
 
797 Audio

PhilGood said:
The capsule! Sorry!!! That's the BIGGEST flaw in this mic! (and by the way, it IS part of the electronics!) Alctron doesn't make great capsules. They don't tune them or drill them well. They don't even glue the mylar to the retainer ring. They just strech it over the backplate and tighten it down. When I built my Ela M copy I had the same problems until I put in a 797 capsule. BIIIIG difference.

Resistors don't effect sound unless you are tuning the voltage. I don't believe that's the problem here. Michael has changed the capsules and now has wonderful sounding mics. He owns a 414 and the U87 and M147. If he can compare them to those after only modding the capsule and trafo, then I believe him. Dave Thomas up in Canada pretty much concurs and believes the circuit is a decent one with only minor changes neccessary.

I just won a replacement capsule from a CAD E350 I am going to try. I will let you know the differences.
Click to expand...

I have a chance to go to Beijing China in a few weeks. The last two times I was supposed to go to China my boss canceled the trip. If I go I will pay a visit to 797 Audio and grab several of there CR-998s and 20 or so capsules to play with.

My question is in regards to dynamics.
Even if it's a crap capsule 'as long as its not broken' it shouldn't stop putting out electrons at higher loudness levels. It should just keep putting out until it bottoms out or breaks. That is my under-educated thinking on this.
That is why I was looking elsewhere in the electronics.
I still have some more caps to replace, it's cheap and fun and as always, I will keep you updated.

Let us know about the CAD.
 
EdgeGuy said:
I have a chance to go to Beijing China in a few weeks. The last two times I was supposed to go to China my boss canceled the trip. If I go I will pay a visit to 797 Audio and grab several of there CR-998s and 20 or so capsules to play with.

My question is in regards to dynamics.
Even if it's a crap capsule 'as long as its not broken' it shouldn't stop putting out electrons at higher loudness levels. It should just keep putting out until it bottoms out or breaks. That is my under-educated thinking on this.
That is why I was looking elsewhere in the electronics.
I still have some more caps to replace, it's cheap and fun and as always, I will keep you updated.

Let us know about the CAD.
Click to expand...

The transformer can alter the output level. Dave Thomas says this trafo is 8:1, others say 11:1. Weird thing is: The AKG C12 uses an 11:1 output transformer WITHOUT the cathode follower circuit!

The other thing that might alter the output could be the other half of the tube that lowers the impedance. I would try the C24 mod that Marik suggested (as I am going to). I would also suggest the Cinemag upgrade.

If you go the 797 factory, let me know as I am a capsule whore and would go in on the buy! I need some single sided 6 microns!
 
Transformers and otherthings

PhilGood said:
The transformer can alter the output level. Dave Thomas says this trafo is 8:1, others say 11:1. Weird thing is: The AKG C12 uses an 11:1 output transformer WITHOUT the cathode follower circuit!

The other thing that might alter the output could be the other half of the tube that lowers the impedance. I would try the C24 mod that Marik suggested (as I am going to). I would also suggest the Cinemag upgrade.

If you go the 797 factory, let me know as I am a capsule whore and would go in on the buy! I need some single sided 6 microns!
Click to expand...

You whore.

You will take double sided and be happy that you did!
Triple sided if I say so. ;)

There is no buy.

For two years in a roe the trip was canceled. :(
If it goes through I will go crazy to make contacts and buy lots of stuff for fun.
It's not every day that someone else pays your way to China.

Why single sided 6 microns, and what size?
797 makes a couple of these in different sizes.

As a matter of fact... I don't care.

Single sided doesn't interest me.
Just buy the josephson matched pair for $1000 bucks.
Sounds great for overheads and shity sounding acoustic guitars.
Get a oktava 012.
Good for many things.
Cheap and good.
What I'm trying to say is that ultimately it isn't
"a" capsule for me but rather the relationship that I am interested in building.

What about the 460 capsule. Mine is a 6 micron, 32 mm beast that functions perfectly.
I don't know who made it, but I salute them.
There is nothing wrong with the capsule.
Except mine looks like some one glued two singles together spaced too far apart.
There might not be everything right with it but that's another story.

The transformer can be the culprit in the lack of dynamics...but really probably not.
At least not the first place to look.
No... just not the first place to look.

I am not a wiz with electronics but.
I am unswayable when I say It is not my capsule that is causing the dynamics problem.
I am unswayable when I say it is not the trany.....not that a better trany or a better capsule wouldn't make the mic sound better but there is no problem.
I am looking for real fuckups!
There is a fuckup with the 460s dynamics that has nothing to do with the trany or capsule.
Since I'm a electral dunce - I am at the mercy of this forum to explore possibilies.
The trany is what the trany is and could be made better.
No fuckup there.
The capsule is what the capsule is and could be made better.
Fine ..It's not a great one.

I use mic's as equalizers.
I hate EQs but I don't mind them as microphones.
That's me.
As soon as I can figure out how to post some of a mix of stuff I have been recording the 460 with the loud vocalist ....I will.
So can someone tell me how to do that?

Can someone tell me what fucking part(s) is holding back the dynamics of this mic.

I only ask this stuff because it is frustrating to know what is going on and not being able to communicate it to the real people who make the magic happen.

You are the magic people. :)

And I am..............the un - magical person.
Who uses the stuff you make.
 
Scotch Whiskey is telling me right now to "shut the fuck up!" as it were...

G'night!
 
OK, I need some help, again. I got the CM2480 in, but I didn't remove C9 and C10, xo I guess I'll do that. But now I'm going to try the Marik mod posted in previous pages of this thread. But, for the "schematically challenged" people,
"like me" I need to ask a couple of questions.

Marik says....."Cute traces from tube pins 6,7,8 and short them together"
OK, Does this means short the tube pins together or short together the traces and leave those tube pins not connected. I guess I'm asking which side to short.
 
Short the tube pins together, not the traces. In fact, they should go to a ground point.
 
EdgeGuy said:
What about the 460 capsule. Mine is a 6 micron, 32 mm beast that functions perfectly.
I don't know who made it, but I salute them.
There is nothing wrong with the capsule.
Click to expand...

OK, now that I'm sober and the hangover has subsided I can answer this.

The capsule is 90% of the mic's sound! If all you are going to do is try and fix the electronics, you are only working on perfecting the first or last 10% of the mic. You still have 90% to go. There is PLENTY wrong with that capsule!!

PLENTY!!

On that capsule's frequency graph there is a presence peak, or "bell curve" at around the 2k range. On Peluso/AKG/Neumann capsules the curve happens higher, somewhere past the sibilance range where the "air" happens, and the rest is pretty flat. An M7 capsule was/is tuned at around 950hz. If it wasn't it was rejected. That's not the case where most shanghai capsules are thrown together and "good enough" The mylar is tuned at the wrong frequency, both high and low. The chances of getting one that is tuned just right are about 1 in 100, maybe higher. Neumann check their capsules for quality and out of 10 capsules, 8 are rejected. Spend some time doing research on frequency graphs and you'll learn why all the cheap chinese mics all have that shrill quality to them. Two reasons. Bad electronics and BAD capsules.

The backplates are basically the same as a Neumann KK67 or KK87. It is the tensioning and even-ness that make it great or not. Alctron doesn't have someone who is as knowledgeable as someone like at the Neumann or AKG factories, or John Peluso. John personally checks all his capsules for consistency. QA is the key!!! I'd say that with Alctron, NO capsules are rejected. They are probably grouped by which go to cheap/midrange/higher priced mics. The bad ones go to the cheapies! The Apex 460/Nady 1150 are low-mid priced mics. How much do you think they worry about the quality of the capsule? What do you think are the chances you got one that is perfectly tuned? ...On both sides?

797 used to make the capsules for the original Rode mics. That should tell you something right there! Rode got it's reputation based on the quality there with good electronics and now has built themselves up enough to start making their own capsules. Studio Projects now uses 797 capsules, which is why their mics sound good! In all my dealings between Marshall (MXL) and Studio Projects I will probably never buy another MXL. MXL uses those danged shanghai capsules!

All the companies with high end, incredible sounding mics all make their own high quality capsules. That's what they all have in common.

Does this make sense now, or do I need to buy you another can of turd polish?
 
Last edited:
As for the dynamics, what is your preamp? That could be the culprit!
 
PhilGood, I'm doing the electronic mods before I do the Capsule....saving it for last. I'm going to put in a CEK-367..... I'm not looking for a flat sound. Trying to make it good for Voice Overs.

While testing the mic in various stages of mods, (I test after every mod, just to make sure I'm getting it right) I have noticed this dynamic thing going on... sort of a bit of compression. I'm always comparing it to our Schoeps with cardiod capsule, as that is the best and flatest we've got. Apex right now is more usable for VO than AKG414, as that sounds too flat for voice, right in the mids. Anyway, I notice a difference in dynamics while testing side by side with these other two condenser mics. The transformer change has taken care of some of it, and I'm thinking Marik suggestions a few pages back may be a further improvement. OR.... maybe it's just a tube mic, that has it's own dynamics. I'm going to try and attach a pic of what I've got so far.
 

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PhilGood said:
OK, now that I'm sober and the hangover has subsided I can answer this.

The capsule is 90% of the mic's sound! If all you are going to do is try and fix the electronics, you are only working on perfecting the first or last 10% of the mic. You still have 90% to go. There is PLENTY wrong with that capsule!!

PLENTY!!

On that capsule's frequency graph there is a presence peak, or "bell curve" at around the 2k range. On Peluso/AKG/Neumann capsules the curve happens higher, somewhere past the sibilance range where the "air" happens, and the rest is pretty flat. An M7 capsule was/is tuned at around 950hz. If it wasn't it was rejected. That's not the case where most shanghai capsules are thrown together and "good enough" The mylar is tuned at the wrong frequency, both high and low. The chances of getting one that is tuned just right are about 1 in 100, maybe higher. Neumann check their capsules for quality and out of 10 capsules, 8 are rejected. Spend some time doing research on frequency graphs and you'll learn why all the cheap chinese mics all have that shrill quality to them. Two reasons. Bad electronics and BAD capsules.

The backplates are basically the same as a Neumann KK67 or KK87. It is the tensioning and even-ness that make it great or not. Alctron doesn't have someone who is as knowledgeable as someone like at the Neumann or AKG factories, or John Peluso. John personally checks all his capsules for consistency. QA is the key!!! I'd say that with Alctron, NO capsules are rejected. They are probably grouped by which go to cheap/midrange/higher priced mics. The bad ones go to the cheapies! The Apex 460/Nady 1150 are low-mid priced mics. How much do you think they worry about the quality of the capsule? What do you think are the chances you got one that is perfectly tuned? ...On both sides?

797 used to make the capsules for the original Rode mics. That should tell you something right there! Rode got it's reputation based on the quality there with good electronics and now has built themselves up enough to start making their own capsules. Studio Projects now uses 797 capsules, which is why their mics sound good! In all my dealings between Marshall (MXL) and Studio Projects I will probably never buy another MXL. MXL uses those danged shanghai capsules!

All the companies with high end, incredible sounding mics all make their own high quality capsules. That's what they all have in common.

Does this make sense now, or do I need to buy you another can of turd polish?
Click to expand...

Yeah, total sense.
I cant do something so dramatic to this mic until the vocalist has completed the songs that are half done.

I'm on a different time line then you.

Also I won't bother to put an expensive capsule in this mic until I understand and get the electronics that are in there sounding dynamic.
I'm just not there yet. I will be.

No one spoke up and said the "capsule in my mic could be the cause of the dynamics problem". I will assume it isn't.

So - for now I want to make the mic more dynamic without changing the color too much. (C4) (C5) and (C7) are getting swapped out next. (C5) looks like it might have something to do with supplying power to the capsule. If the capsule needs power ,as when hit with a loud source, is (C5s) job to provide that power? Could an under performing (C5) restrict dynamics? Or (C4) or (C7).
I never read a schematic before this. I need your help in understanding what was meant with "1000P/630V" for (C4). Is 1000P just 1000uf? Do I really need a 630V cap here? Does (C5) need to be 400V? Can I go 250V?

PhilGood that's all I can do for now.
There's a free 5th of Scotch or a 797 capsule coming your way for your help on this.
 
EdgeGuy said:
I never read a schematic before this. I need your help in understanding what was meant with "1000P/630V" for (C4). Is 1000P just 1000uf? Do I really need a 630V cap here? Does (C5) need to be 400V? Can I go 250V?
Click to expand...

Other way around. 1000pF is .001uF

Pico Farads! Pico is one billion. u means micro. micro is 1000. (actually it's not a u, that's just the only character that looks close.)

No, I think 250v is fine. Like I said, the power supply only puts out 200v WITHOUT load. Under load it's more like 125v.

I'll need to look at the schematic again, but I'm not home right now.

Maybe Marik is out there somewhere....

Marik???
 
PhilGood said:
Other way around. 1000pF is .001uF

Pico Farads! Pico is one billion. u means micro. micro is 1000. (actually it's not a u, that's just the only character that looks close.)

No, I think 250v is fine. Like I said, the power supply only puts out 200v WITHOUT load. Under load it's more like 125v.

I'll need to look at the schematic again, but I'm not home right now.

Maybe Marik is out there somewhere....

Marik???
Click to expand...

Send me your address, real name etc.
I have a very cool gift for you.
bobbysparks369@gmail.com

Bobby.
 
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