Apex 460 capacitor change?

[PhilGood]

Gus, would you mind re-posting this info??

I don't mean to impose.

 

[EdgeGuy]

It sure is me

Is that you Bobby S? If so the I lost your number and message on my machine because I replaced the phone. give me a call.
I have a better circuit for that microphone. People are missing a circuit I posted in the past. Also people are missing some problems with the power supply. Still have the mxl603?

Do you check "the Lab"

Hey Gus. long time. I moved to Hamilton so don't get your way as much.
I still have the 603 (and the 2001) and will be using it Sunday, unless I like the 460 better on acoustic.
Have you seen Joey B. lately? His number is no longer in service.
I'll call you in a couple of days.

I'll check out the Lab.

 

[EdgeGuy]

The phase problems are only shown on the graph. Can't remember where that link is, but I'll find it.

If I would go for a higher value Ansar, it would be a 3.3uf 400v CPA, which is a lesser performance cap than the SPA, but about the same size. That would extend the bass a bit. Probably down to 20hz easily. Too bad we couldn't find a paper in oil that would fit! That would be the best!

Marik or Flatpicker or mshilarious could tell you how to alter the negative feedback, if it exists. I've always heard that negative feedback can actually correct renagade spikes. Wish Gus would comment! Haven't seen him here in a while.

Did you try a better coupler cap for C4? If we could find a suitable polystyrene, that would KILL and solve alot of problems. It would have to be a suitable voltage. I've used 1000pF 50v on SS mics and it makes a HUGE difference!

BTW, I am using Telefunken 12AT7 for the tube, and found it seems to be the best suited for the circuit. Tried a 6072A, but found it to be too soft sounding.

It sure is fun messing with this mic.
Yeah paper in oil would be the way to go.

I have more parts on order I just haven't gotten them yet.

(C4) is rated at 630v. Real world - what can we get away with there? The lower the voltage - the smaller the cap.

As with the NF - Don't know about NF accept that on a preamp I had, you could control it and I preferred to have the least possible. Don't know if it applies to microphones.

Hold off on the 3.3 uf Ansar untill I give the 1.0 a real loud singer and put it through some abuse and break in time. Sunday is the day.

 

[mayonaise33]

I have this mic and am very new to microphones.. I think it is pretty decent out of the box..

It seems to work good on vocals and acoustic guitar, for me anyways..

Are these improvement you guys are talking about really make that much difference, and if so is it easy to "swap" tube or something that someone with absolutley no electrical experince, like myself can do?

 

[mayonaise33]

Here is a recording I did with this mic only...

It was through a tascam 788, with an $350 Ibanez acoustic, DI bass and a Boss Dr. Rhythm... The transfer to the comnputer kinda hurt the quality a bit too......

Also do you guys use any mic preamps that would affect the sound quality?

I am thinking up getting a PreSonus Firebox and wonder if these preamps would make the mic any better?

Thanks...

http://download.yousendit.com/C1C1579319F5E96F

 

[PhilGood]

I have this mic and am very new to microphones.. I think it is pretty decent out of the box..

It seems to work good on vocals and acoustic guitar, for me anyways..

Are these improvement you guys are talking about really make that much difference, and if so is it easy to "swap" tube or something that someone with absolutley no electrical experince, like myself can do?

Swapping the tube is about the easiest thing to do in this mic. You just need small screw drivers and have to hold down a spring.

An NOS (new old stock) 12AT7 or 12AY7 will be a big improvement. GE, Mullard, Telefunken, something of that nature.

 

[EdgeGuy]

Change the tube man

Swapping the tube is about the easiest thing to do in this mic. You just need small screw drivers and have to hold down a spring.

An NOS (new old stock) 12AT7 or 12AY7 will be a big improvement. GE, Mullard, Telefunken, something of that nature.

Agreed!

Try one of these.

http://vacuumtubeaudio.com/item219.htm

Let us know what happens.

I like the mic stock as well but saw a lot of possibilities in upgrading some parts.
I already had a small stash of tubes to try and fell in love with the Telefunken 12ax7. The differance is huge. Note that this tube is 40 or 50 years old and isn't as hot as a modern 12ax7. A 12ay7/6072a (same tube) is better for the 460.

I think that when you hear your mic with a better tube you will be hooked on upgradeing your mic.

 

[PhilGood]

I was doing a search and came up with a post where Marik was talking about how a 12AT7 was not suitable for microphones in his opinion. I'm using Telefunken 12AT7's in my mics. I remember pulling the original tubes from mine an noticing right away they were chinese 12AX7's.

Mark, care to elaborate?

Would a GE 12AY7 be better? Stay away from 12AT7??

 

[Gus]

I made some time to read thur this thread.

I use a polypro or PET at C8 depending on what is wanted

The china microphones I have seen like this have had films at C4

Depending on the the tube I change the grid to ground resistor R6. With 12ax 12at you might want to keep it at 200meg. Its a physics thing.

C1 C2 don't make much difference to me, C1 maybe make it >1uf good electro or film if you want.

The power supply is zener reg at 200V. The china microphone power supply I have been inside are 6 or so VDC for the heater. The Apex schematic from the link a few post back has the tube wired for 6.3 and the PS as 12.6V it also has the pattern changing voltage on pin 3 going to signal + in the power I would guess the supply is 6VDC or so for the fil and the power supply schematic is for a different model

Marik gave a good mod a few threads ago.

I do something different I am not going to post it.

Leave the stock transformer change that last if you want.

There are no best parts it is a taste issue and knowing what to change for what the person wants.

 

[PhilGood]

Thanks for the feedback Gus!

Much appreciated!

 

[mayonaise33]

Agreed!

Try one of these.

http://vacuumtubeaudio.com/item219.htm

Let us know what happens.

I like the mic stock as well but saw a lot of possibilities in upgrading some parts.
I already had a small stash of tubes to try and fell in love with the Telefunken 12ax7. The differance is huge. Note that this tube is 40 or 50 years old and isn't as hot as a modern 12ax7. A 12ay7/6072a (same tube) is better for the 460.

I think that when you hear your mic with a better tube you will be hooked on upgradeing your mic.

wow 43$ is pretty steep for a tube, considering the mic itself cost 240$

I know this sound silly but what exactly will this tube do? Will it make the recordings more rich and full? Compared to the stock 460..

Also just to follow up, do you guys think the preamp does much for you? Like I said i am getting a firebox and wonder if the premap will improve the quality.

Thanks guys...

 

[PhilGood]

wow 43$ is pretty steep for a tube, considering the mic itself cost 240$

I know this sound silly but what exactly will this tube do? Will it make the recordings more rich and full? Compared to the stock 460..

Also just to follow up, do you guys think the preamp does much for you? Like I said i am getting a firebox and wonder if the premap will improve the quality.

Thanks guys...

What it will do is correct the problems that the stock tube presents. The stock 12AX7 is a high output tube. That makes the transformer saturate on loud signals as causes a fuzzy harshness. The lower output tubes give the mic a little more headroom and less fuzz. You will notice the sound will be cleaner and have a better midrange. That's where the magic happens.

A good preamp is very, very important. A bad pre will make a good mic sound muddy or masked. You will not hear all the detail the mic can produce if you use a poor pre. A bad pre can also color the sound. Color can be a good thing, or bad, depending on what it does to the sound and how it sits in the mix.

 

[EdgeGuy]

All day session and the 460

Singers guitar is a Taylor 6xx. I always found his Taylor to be nice sounding but thin. Like most Taylors are.
I put up the 460 and was greeted to a massive sound.
I wanted to redo all the parts I had just done last week with matched earthworks! This single cheep POS beat out my earthworks and I didn't even position the sweet spot yet.
Ok - guitar done, now the voice.

It was so different than any mic I have ever used. Lots of color, alive and warm. Yet just not right. I have recorded this vocalist 50 times in different studios as well as my own using many different mics.
There are problems with this mic. A lack of dynamics or a compression when confronted with a loud signal. I might have to give up my Tele12ax7 for a nice 6072. I don't want to do that because I don't think the Tele is to blame.
I think the little transformer is to blame.

What do you guys think about that?

Was it a success?
Mostly.
I recorded the loud parts on there own track, used less compression on his voice and positioned the pop filter further from the mic. I also noticed that I was adding EQ (again like the last singer) at around 2 to 3k.
The mic got hammered today and the bass response never opened up any further. This cap (Anser 1uf 400v) may need more time.

I didn't want to change the transformer for something large and expensive. I might do it if I can find a trany that is capable and drops right in.

Anyone know what I should look for?

Its 2 AM and going to bed.

 

[PhilGood]

Singers guitar is a Taylor 6xx. I always found his Taylor to be nice sounding but thin. Like most Taylors are.
I put up the 460 and was greeted to a massive sound.
I wanted to redo all the parts I had just done last week with matched earthworks! This single cheep POS beat out my earthworks and I didn't even position the sweet spot yet.
Ok - guitar done, now the voice.

It was so different than any mic I have ever used. Lots of color, alive and warm. Yet just not right. I have recorded this vocalist 50 times in different studios as well as my own using many different mics.
There are problems with this mic. A lack of dynamics or a compression when confronted with a loud signal. I might have to give up my Tele12ax7 for a nice 6072. I don't want to do that because I don't think the Tele is to blame.
I think the little transformer is to blame.

What do you guys think about that?

Was it a success?
Mostly.
I recorded the loud parts on there own track, used less compression on his voice and positioned the pop filter further from the mic. I also noticed that I was adding EQ (again like the last singer) at around 2 to 3k.
The mic got hammered today and the bass response never opened up any further. This cap (Anser 1uf 400v) may need more time.

I didn't want to change the transformer for something large and expensive. I might do it if I can find a trany that is capable and drops right in.

Anyone know what I should look for?

Its 2 AM and going to bed.

Cinemag CM-2480!!!! This is an ugrade transformer to the T14 used by AKG for the C12 and Ela M 251. It is better than the T14 by a long shot and is VERY inexpensive. Around $40-$45. 10:5-1 ratio, which is just perfect. They are now the ONLY place I buy mic transformers! Have one upgrade CM-2461NiCo trafo ready for a self built U47 and am salivating!!

cinemag.biz

6072 will give you muuuch better headroom. I think this circuit was designed with this tube in mind, but they went with 12AX7 because 12AY7/6072A are not readily available.

 

[EdgeGuy]

Parts came in today.

Thanks Marik for the suggestion of replacing (C6) with a 100uf 25v Black Gate.
My mic is now cured of the under performing upper mid/lower treble thing I kept talking about.
I sound like fuck_ng Frank Sanatra.
Too bad I look like Jerry Springer.

So Marik - could you explain why this change has happened?

The difference isn't small...I mean the tonal balance of the mic is fixed. Except the bass extension is still a little light as before.
But no more EQing! which I hate. That's what the mic is for.

PhilGood - I have a question regarding the Cinemag.

Will my Tele12ax7 overload it?

Now that I put the Black Gate in the overload problem is worse.
I'm getting a hotter signal now.
Also where can I order it?

I'm going to record some stuff to break in the Black Gate before my next session.

See Ya'

 

[e-dog]

Has anyone actually tried that 3.3uf Ansar?

That's quite a value jump.. wonder if it might be excessive.

Mine (nady) currently has a 2.2 electrolytic "upgrade" in it, but I wouldn't mind trying something else.


.

 

[PhilGood]

Hard to say since the T14 was specifically designed for use with a 12AY7/6072A, but since the Telefunken tube has a lower output than a stock 12AX7, you might be OK. I still feel an NOS 12AY7 would be a better choice. The transformer for the 460 probably is inferior because of the windings and laminate materials.

Remember, a 12AX7's output is rated at 100.
12AT7 is rated at 60
12AY7 is 45
12AV7 is 41
12AU7 is 19

The lower you go, the less saturation, but the higher the floor noise, and for the most part the filament seems to draw more current. You might end up pulling 7.5 volts or so out of a 12AV7, which might make the tube not last as long.

 

[PhilGood]

Has anyone actually tried that 3.3uf Ansar?

That's quite a value jump.. wonder if it might be excessive.

Mine (nady) currently has a 2.2 electrolytic "upgrade" in it, but I wouldn't mind trying something else.


.

3.3uF is what is used in the Ela M 250/251 circuit. I did a homemade Elam with a 3.3uF, but later swapped for a 10uF mylar just to see what it would do.

I like it. I can always roll off the lows in the mix. I'd bet an Ansar would sound amazing.

Electrolytics sound grainy to me. Not very linear in their resonponses. They seem to lose a lot of detail.

 

[EdgeGuy]

3.3 vs 1.0

3.3uF is what is used in the Ela M 250/251 circuit. I did a homemade Elam with a 3.3uF, but later swapped for a 10uF mylar just to see what it would do.

I like it. I can always roll off the lows in the mix. I'd bet an Ansar would sound amazing.

Electrolytics sound grainy to me. Not very linear in their resonponses. They seem to lose a lot of detail.

These are BIG caps. The bigger caps need more break in time to open up.
The value is the same as before (1.0) and the bass was fine before.

I'm recording that same loud singer tonight.

I'll post an update in the morning.

P.S. Once again I can't say enough about changing (C6- 100uf 25v) to the Black Gate. Thanks again Marik.
Get'um fast. Black Gate is out of business.

 

[PhilGood]

Did you try it without C6? In re-reading the posts I noticed Marik referred to it as NFB, so i guess that would be negative feedback. That was something you suspected to be a problem initially.

I am going to order some Black Gates and Ansars.