Apex 460 capacitor change?

  • Thread starter Thread starter EdgeGuy
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PhilGood said:
Did you try it without C6? In re-reading the posts I noticed Marik referred to it as NFB, so i guess that would be negative feedback. That was something you suspected to be a problem initially.

I am going to order some Black Gates and Ansars.
Click to expand...

No I didn't try it without C6. Yeah I suspected the NFB but never thought that replacing the cap with a same value cap would make that much of a difference. I was very surprised.

It was a pain in the ass to install. It's 4 times bigger than the stock. You have to be creative to get this in with the Ansar. I installed the Black Gate pointing up towards the capsule. The Ansar pointing down.

I hope the Ansar 1.0 I got breaks in some more in the bass.
If not let me know how the 3.3 works.
If the 3.3 is larger - it might not fit.
The 1.0 just makes it.
 
You might have just as much bass as you did before, but since it cleaned up the midrange so much it might just appear like you have less. That's happened to me before. :)
 
I thought of that.

PhilGood said:
You might have just as much bass as you did before, but since it cleaned up the midrange so much it might just appear like you have less. That's happened to me before. :)
Click to expand...

When I test the mic I record every change I make on its own track with my voice and I include a plosive test. The bass is clearly missing extension. The Black Gate helped add some power across the spectrum but the Ansar 1.0 cap is still not reaching the lowest lows.
If this continues I will replace the cap with a second Ansar 1.0 cap I bought for a second 460 to see if the first cap is defective.

I await your Ansar 3.3 mod.
You sure it's the same size?

You will love the Black Gate.
Ends up sounding more like a U47 than a C-12. Funny.
This mic doesn't sound anything like a C-12.
Never did and probably never will.
 
In response to the reference to C6 and negative feedback, there is no feedback in that circuit. R7 is usually set so that the signal will not clip at the negative or positive going part of the signal before the other, but at the same time. The presence of the resistor limits the cathode current, thereby decreasing the gain factor of the circuit. To increase the AC gain, C6 is installed, with the AC low frequency limit being a function of R7 and C6 (1/[2Pi*R*C]).

I have found that with the Apex/Nady microphones the tubes and transformers make a big difference, but the biggest difference is by replacing the inferior mic capsule. I have replaced capsules with both the Peluso C12 and U47 style capsules, and that has made a larger difference than anything else. The Cinemag transformers cleared up a noticeable lumpiness in the low-end. I had the best success with both the 5751 and 6072/12AY7 tubes. They both sound very similar with the only real differences being the gain. The Electro Harmonix 6072's sound surprisingly good and can be purchased for as low as $11US. Hope that info helps.
 
I have tried the EH 12AY7/6072A and think they sound great!

Good to know about the feedback!

I have a Cinemag transormer I was going to use for a seperate project, but will try it in this mic.

I am also in agreement about the capsules being inferior. Shanghai capsules all have some weird muddy and shrill quality. The either don't tune the diaphragms correctly or don't drill the backplates right. 797's capsules are far superior. Peluso's are great!

No, this mic will never sound like a C12 because the CK12 capsule was 90% of the C12's sound. The edge termination, venting design and a small 40 micron resonance chamber between the backplates made that capsule truly something special, but very different than a Neumann style capsule. Even the Peluso version is really just an edge terminated version over Neumann KK67 style backplates. I'm just trying to get my mics to a unique sound all their own.

The right mods are turning this into a very good and usable mic!
 
I also use the EH 12AY7 on this mic...

I tried an nos RCA 12AY7 and the EH had a much better sound, brighter and more clarity in the upper-mids.

I also tried the peluso upgrade, which I have mixed feeling about.. the mic sounds better but not quite to the degree that I was expecting for an additional hundred bucks. I used the smaller (CK-89, i think) double center terminated capsule, I heard really great things prior and am wondering if the comments were for the larger size "Neumann" capsule.

The "better" in the peluso capsule included a better frequency curve, seemed like.. more in the "air" region. The stock capsule had a little of that 3-5k peak which didn't really sound right on this mic, and a more harsh sound. But the stock seemed to have slightly more detail, I beleive they're 3 micron and I know peluso's are 6. But overall I do like the peluso better, "smooth" is the only way I can think to describe it, a textured sound, like a good old jazz recording.

But it wasn't the night-and-day difference I was expecting.

The mic still has very pronounced (maybe more) "muddy" proximity effect and not much high-end though, which makes it hard for me to find uses for it.

But still work to be done...

Them Black Gates always seemed a bit too high-end for me, but for this application I think I'll have to give 'em a try (based on what EdgeGuy has said).

Who sells them, that's good to deal with??



.
 
Parts Connexion

e-dog said:
I also use the EH 12AY7 on this mic...

I tried an nos RCA 12AY7 and the EH had a much better sound, brighter and more clarity in the upper-mids.

I also tried the peluso upgrade, which I have mixed feeling about.. the mic sounds better but not quite to the degree that I was expecting for an additional hundred bucks. I used the smaller (CK-89, i think) double center terminated capsule, I heard really great things prior and am wondering if the comments were for the larger size "Neumann" capsule.

The "better" in the peluso capsule included a better frequency curve, seemed like.. more in the "air" region. The stock capsule had a little of that 3-5k peak which didn't really sound right on this mic, and a more harsh sound. But the stock seemed to have slightly more detail, I beleive they're 3 micron and I know peluso's are 6. But overall I do like the peluso better, "smooth" is the only way I can think to describe it, a textured sound, like a good old jazz recording.

But it wasn't the night-and-day difference I was expecting.

The mic still has very pronounced (maybe more) "muddy" proximity effect and not much high-end though, which makes it hard for me to find uses for it.

But still work to be done...

Them Black Gates always seemed a bit too high-end for me, but for this application I think I'll have to give 'em a try (based on what EdgeGuy has said).

Who sells them, that's good to deal with??



.
Click to expand...
I think this mic has gone through an evolution.
Mine and PhilGood's mic came with Mylar caps mostly.
Mine came with a matching shock mount.
I have no complaint with the capsule.

I got the Black Gate here.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/

I'm still waiting for Marik to explain -if he can- why the Black Gate in C6 works so well.
 
I have the Peluso CEK12 in one mic and it is definitely not a modified Neumann style capsule. I have his CEK367 Neumann style as well and they both sound totally different in the Nady/Apex mics. The CEK12 does sound very similar to my AKG 414's but with a little something else added. I have two U87's and an M147 and the CEK367 definitely sounds in the ballpark of these mics, while the CEK12 sounds nothing like them. Both of these capsules are 34mm instead of the smaller 32mm Peluso capsules that you made reference to. The price difference should tell you a lot about the capsules. $175 for the CEK12 and CEK367, and $95 for the 32mm capsule.
 
Well, I don't mean to argue, but the CEK12 has been discussed at length at several other forums, including gearslutz, prodigy-pro, etc. and it's pretty common knowledge that the CEK12 is exactly just an edge terminated diaphragm over K67 style backplates. The brasswork is all done in China and John does the diaphragm work here. John knows how to tune the mylar to get the right sound. I'm sure edge termination alone is enough to make them sound different. Imagine a drum with a post in the center vs. a regular drum. More free vibration, plus tensioning frequency has to be different to keep the center from touching the backplate.

Klaus Heyne is quite the authority on this.

Prodigy professional site has alot of info on this capsule, but the site hasn't been working for a while.
 
If that's the case, then "center versus edge" connection is one of the largest factors in the difference between the sound of an AKG capsule and a Neumann capsule. Whether the backplate is the same, the CEK12 doesn't sound anything like a Neumann capsule.
 
Michael, which capsule do you prefer? I have the Apex 460 and have done some cap changes along with tube. Thinking about doing the Cinemag and new capsule. I like the sound of the 414 except the flat sounding midrange. Also like the U87 sound. Thinking about the CEK367 or the CEK12. Which one?
Also, I'm having problems getting into the bottom of the mic. Seems like the 7 pin connector doesn't want to push through, even after I've turned in the recessed screw to let it lose and removed the 4 screws on each side. How do you get to the transformer?
 
mbrebes said:
If that's the case, then "center versus edge" connection is one of the largest factors in the difference between the sound of an AKG capsule and a Neumann capsule. Whether the backplate is the same, the CEK12 doesn't sound anything like a Neumann capsule.
Click to expand...

I have an interest in both capsules none the less. I would love to hear a description in the differences. I have read great reviews on Peluso's versions of the Elam and U47.

How would you describe the qualities of each capsule?
 
Michael,

I saw over at studio forums you tried the EH 12AY7/6072 in this mic. I am using that tube in the Ela M clone I built, but am using Telefunken 12AT7's in the Apex and Nady I am moding. If you like the 12AY7 better, I will probably swap tubes since I have about 4 new EH's. Dave Thomas seems to prefer that tube in this mic.
 
I tried the 6072 and didn't like it. I'm using a Mullard 12ATY in it now, and it's more beefy sounding.
For those that have done the transformer change, how do I take the thing apart? I'm having trouble getting the 7 pin out. Looks like it's supposed to push apart after releasing the screw, but my need some extra 'hammering'!
 
To answer the first question, I don't really prefer one capsule over the other. At this point, both mics had identical electronics including 6072 tubes and the Cinemag 2480 transformers. It really depends on what you are recording and the source responds to the mic.

Like I said, the CEK12 sounds similar to my AKG414's. They tend to have a very flat sounding response, with a very small boost(+.5dB) above 9kHz. A few male voices sound good on them and I've had some female voices that ONLY worked with them. The CEK12 (inside the Nady/Apex) sounded similar but with more of a boost above 9K than the 414 and a bit more bottom, which quite possibly could be a factor of the tube/transformer.

The CEK367 sounded very similar to my U87's and the M147, which is a tube mic. Bit more pronounced high end boost, more bottom and proximity effect, and a bit of a broad dip in the mids. A bit more overhyped of a sound.

Regarding tubes, the only 12AT7 I had was a Groove Tubes labelled one. With the same electronics and the CEK12 capsule, the 12AT7 had too much bottom end for my taste, but with the CEK367 capsule the difference in the bottom didn't seem so extreme, which must have something to do with the different sonic characteristics of each capsule. If you want to use a tube with higher gain, you might try the 5751. I have a Philips branded one that sound excellent with both capsules. The tone between that tube and the EH6072's was almost identical.

How to remove the transformer: There are screws holding the two internal struts to the 7-pin connector assembly and the transformer housing. Remove those screws and you should be able to remove both pieces. The transformer can then be pulled out of the housing. Use a screw driver to lift out the two covers on the insides of the struts. This exposes the red transformer wire and the two wires (green and black) that go up to capacitors that are used for RF attenuation. I removed the green and black wires and just left the unused parts in the board. The green and black to the 7-pin are + and - of the xfrmer output. The other wire coming from the transformer is going to ground on the 7 pin connector and is the negative side of the xfrmer input.

Hope that helps.
 
I figured it out. Had to take the whole thing apart. 7 pin comes out only 1 way, opposite of what I thought.
 
Lucy...I'm Home!

I went to Washington D.C. for a few days and just left the mic "on" at home.
Well the bass is back.
Most of it anyway.
I'm done.
The sound is 1000% better than it should be for Hmmmm let's see: $230 for the mic, $15 for the Ansar, $8 for the Black Gate, nothing for the removal of the inner layers of mesh, and $0 for the nice tube I already had.
Total cost of this extravaganza.
A whopping $253!!! (Not including shipping.)
If my Rode Classic sounded anywhere near as good as this Apex - I never would have sold it. I am ordering another 460 and doing the exact same mod. I already ordered two of every part.
Then I'm ordering my Pearlman TM-1.
Ha! You thought I was going to use the 460 for voice.
I fooled you all HaHaHAhAHAhHAH.

Just kidding.
Although, I really am ordering the Pearlman in a few days - I am happy with the 460, and when I have two I will use them for overheads, guitars, horns, voice, you name it.
I only hope that the capsule is the same as the one I got now. The quality control must be lax in China. There was a group buy I saw that had this mic for $69. Rejects? Who knows what I will get next. I'm hoping $230 buys me a good one.

Funny, but I dug deep in some boxes and found some tubes I forgot about.
I had an RCA 12at7 that sounded really almost exactly like the Tele I have in the mic. I compared 4 other Tele 12ax7s and the RCA matched the best of the Tele's. The other Tele's don't sound as good. So to match my 460s I have to use a 12ax7 and a 12at7.
Funny.

This has been fun and I didn't want to do it if I had to replace the capsual or the trany. I might as well get some other mic.
The opportunity to tune my own mic to my own needs was priceless.

Thanks.
Bobby.

Not so fast.
I'm recording the loud vocalist tomorrow and will see If I still have a overload problem. I tested with my own voice today and everything seemed O.K.- Don't know why.
If it is still overloading the mic I will "not" replace the transformer but rather, change a resistor.
What resistor you ask.
I do not know.
I promise to update you with a sound bite of the moded 460 and the loud one.

Stay tuned.
 
give me a call first.

You might want to hear my modded K2 or a few other modded or built from parts ones.
 
# lost

Gus said:
give me a call first.

You might want to hear my modded K2 or a few other modded or built from parts ones.
Click to expand...

Since I called you last I can't find the yellow sticky note with your #.
E-mail me it @ bobbysparks369@gmail.com

Can't wait to hear your mods.

Bobby.
 
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