An ambitious project...

[jjones1700]

Tomorrow I go to pick up a Tascam 32 (1/4" 1/2 track mastering deck, for the folks who don't know) tomorrow. It's pretty much my final piece of the recording back end portion of the puzzle.

For those who either haven't been here long, or haven't seen my handful of threads, I've got the following equipment: Tascam 388, Tascam 38 w/ DX-4D, Tascam TSR8, Tascam M2516 mixer, and a Studiomaster 16x8x2 mixer. I've got other odds and ends in terms of other formats and outboard gear, but that's another story.

I've been taking guitar lessons from a place about 5 minutes from the house. Along the way I've been talking to my instructor and his uncle (who runs the place). Once they heard about the recording equipment, they posed the idea of putting together a small recording studio to work alongside with the lessons. From the guys that know me here, I jumped at the opportunity to get these reels spinning. They took me to the back where everything would be set up. It's a small room, but workable as a starting point. They got the sound dampening in, but haven't put it up yet, and there is a couch that is going to be relocated. We talk a few times a week about the details and what-not. I told them that the analog portion wasn't going to be for everybody, so we would have to have a digital rig up as well. Things are slowly coming together at the location and I'll be setting up my equipment there soon.

Now, there is yet another idea that was presented to me. They asked if I would be willing to record live shows at a particular venue. I would LOVE to be able to capture a live performance, especially on tape. Here is what concerns me: transporting the equipment to and from the location. I know that between the 38 and the TSR8, the 38 is built like a tank comparatively. I wouldn't mind transporting the 388, but it is a big, hulking beast to move. I guess my question is what would you guys do, or what have you done in the past in that situation? I've got (2) 424mkII units, but I don't think that would be quite the same as open reel. I've also got a Teac A4300SX that I could transport and just mix down on the fly.

I've been here for a few years now and have read over TONS of information that you folks have put up. It's going to be a trial and error period for sure at the studio. There are a couple of bands that are willing to be guinea pigs until we get things lined out and get comfortable with the whole process and gear. I'm thrilled to death that I get a chance to do some real recording vs. just tinkering around with the stuff at the house, but I'm pensive about it as well. There are no illusions of grandeur. I'm not out to make a fortune, but it would be cool to eventually make some side money doing something I love.

Let me know your thoughts on it, especially the live location stuff. Look forward to learning more stuff from you guys!

 

[cjacek]

First off, that's a great, great idea about the opportunity for you to have a small analogue based studio, from the stuff you've gathered up over the years, especially kinda a coop between you and the people you've met. A recording studio alongside the lessons is a brilliant idea, potential clients built in. I see no real risk but benefits.

With regard to the live stuff, I would capture that with what you've already have and the 4300SX would be my choice. The 7 1/2ips is not a deal breaker, if you've thought about it as a negative. In fact, from all my forays into 15ips & 7 1/2ips, I've found the latter to be close enough not to warrant the extra speed. It sounds great. OK, as we now have put the speed issue aside the 4300 is ideal 'cause it less bulky and weighty, is more simple, doesn't absolutely require a mixer but then if you have one then that would open up the possibilities as far as more mics and / or compressors patched in (only if needed).

I think it depends what you're after. If you just want to place a couple of mics in the room, let it mix itself then I see no reason for a mixer, you can just plug a couple mics into the 4300. If, on the other hand, you want something where each instrument and voice has at least 1 mic, is fairly isolated, then obviously a smaller mixer would do but still you'd need to mix it on the fly.

I think with those kinda things, taking a multitrack recorder is not really something I'd do but rather the simplified approach I outlined, basically either just your 4300 + 2 mics or the 4300 and mixer combo, for more control over sound.

Just my 2c..

 

[sweetbeats]

Cool, Johnny!

Yeah, if you're going to record live to two track the 4300 would be nice because of the longer record time at 7.5ips. If you wanted to multitrack I'd actually use the TSR-8. Lighter, dbx onboard...I think it'll mean easier transport and faster setup.

 

[fstrat76]

I think it would be great to record live on tape, but I think though that I'd probably record multi-track digitally on a laptop rather than drag a huge and bulky tape machine. Then mix back to tape at the studio. I know these tape machines are sturdy but still a pain to align and setup all the time.

However, if you were going to record at the same venue all the time, it might be a benefit to arrange with the venue to have a permanent or semi-permanent tape setup there. That would be ideal and an easy setup for every recording session.

 

[jjones1700]

Thanks guys! Good ideas all around!

I'll have to check and see what the club venue set up is. I might just have to drop in over the weekend to have a casual look-see. I'm not sure yet if I'll just be plugged into the mix down output of the house mixer, or what. I've also got two Pioneer RT-909 decks, so I have my choice of either the Teac or Pioneer in regards to 1/4 track machines. That reminds me, I need to send the pinch roller for the Teac off to Terry before I do anything with it.

I'm really excited about the studio aspect of the opportunity. I'm as green as they come when it comes to recording. Sure, I know how to operate the equipment, but have no experience with putting something critical down, especially to tape. I would actually like to play around with the digital recording to see what I can get out of it, seeing as how I doubt the reels will be spinning on a regular basis. Although, when the tape side is used, I'll be pressed to contain myself. I'd love to see how good acoustic guitar and a good wood shell drum set sounds on tape. Now, I'll have a controlled environment to play with in regards to drums. I can try to use the simple approach with 2 mics on the drum set, and then compare that to putting a full drum mic kit on tape.

Here's a question. What's the best way to put drums on tape? I mean, if I do record with multiple mics on a set, do I use (for example) the TSR8, and then bounce the tracks over to 2 tracks on the 38? I figure that would have to be a must so that one could record the rest of the tracks (bass, guitar, etc.). I've never bounced with reel to reel, so I'm kinda curious how to tackle that.

I think the wife is gonna want to kill me because I'll probably be getting all of this stuff out and setting it up (temporarily) in my "office".

Thanks again for the input guys!

 

[sweetbeats]

Thanks guys! Good ideas all around!

I'll have to check and see what the club venue set up is. I might just have to drop in over the weekend to have a casual look-see. I'm not sure yet if I'll just be plugged into the mix down output of the house mixer, or what. I've also got two Pioneer RT-909 decks, so I have my choice of either the Teac or Pioneer in regards to 1/4 track machines. That reminds me, I need to send the pinch roller for the Teac off to Terry before I do anything with it.

I'm really excited about the studio aspect of the opportunity. I'm as green as they come when it comes to recording. Sure, I know how to operate the equipment, but have no experience with putting something critical down, especially to tape. I would actually like to play around with the digital recording to see what I can get out of it, seeing as how I doubt the reels will be spinning on a regular basis. Although, when the tape side is used, I'll be pressed to contain myself. I'd love to see how good acoustic guitar and a good wood shell drum set sounds on tape. Now, I'll have a controlled environment to play with in regards to drums. I can try to use the simple approach with 2 mics on the drum set, and then compare that to putting a full drum mic kit on tape.

Here's a question. What's the best way to put drums on tape? I mean, if I do record with multiple mics on a set, do I use (for example) the TSR8, and then bounce the tracks over to 2 tracks on the 38? I figure that would have to be a must so that one could record the rest of the tracks (bass, guitar, etc.). I've never bounced with reel to reel, so I'm kinda curious how to tackle that.

I think the wife is gonna want to kill me because I'll probably be getting all of this stuff out and setting it up (temporarily) in my "office".

Thanks again for the input guys!

The RT-909's do 15ips don't they?

fstrat shame on you! No more worthy cause of a slipped spinal disc than hauling a tape machine!!!

Johnny, if you did end up using the TSR-8 and you wanted to enhance the ease of portability then consider looking for a used "shock" rack. An SKB or Gator. A bit bulky but would protect the TSR-8 in transport very well and handles are a good thing.

I used to be so bent on mic'ing the whole kit but (and you've probably heard this broken record before) now I'm really bent on minimizing the kit mics...phase distortion is a HUGE issue with multi mic'ing and I've just come to accept that I really don't know how to effectively deal with it...I'm happiest with two overheads, a kick mic and maybe a mic on each tom on a 4 piece kit but my most personally pleasing drum sound was on this sketch...this was a sound test to see how bad these mics would sound...those are used as overheads and an AKG D112 poorly placed on the kick drum...that's it. Be forewarned its unmastered/untweaked so the volume is low and it was just a one-take thing so be gentle, but it'll maybe show you that a decent sound may not be hard to get with a classic 3-mic setup even using cheapy dynamics as overheads. I think I got those mics for $10 for the pair with cables on special.

My goal is to come up with a mic array that really works for me and then buss that to three tracks max, two if I'm pinched for track count...no bouncing. In most cases that will be easy if I'm only using 3 mics, but if I AM using more then I'd leave the kick on its own track and mix the rest for a good balance to a stereo pair of tracks. That will take some time and experimentation but its how it used to be done and some of the sounds are fantastic. One of my very favorite snare drum sounds is on Bruce Channel's "Hey! Baby", and I betcha that was a 1 mic setup, and not just for the drums but other instruments at the same time as well.

 

[jjones1700]

Hey Cory, I've heard about the minimalist approach on drums. I've heard some examples that sounded phenomenal. I figure I'll experiment a bit and find what usually works best.

So, I picked up the 32. It is pretty clean with light to moderate use on the heads. Pinch roller is in good shape. I also got a box of various tapes with it. I get it home, plug it in, spool up a tape, hit play, and damn it, needs a capstan belt. It rewinds and forwards just fine. I then turn my attention to the box of tapes. A handful of 7" plain white boxes and small amounts of tape on a few of them. There are about a half dozen empty plastic 7" reels with no boxes. I then get curious about a reel of tape at the bottom of the box that looks a bit out of place. I pull it up and it's a full reel of Ampex 499. There is also an empty 1" reel, both having the 3 screw hubs. There is an empty Otari 1/4" reel, and an Ampex branded reel. Now I'm really curious. I pull out the hard plastic case that is in the box and open it up. It is a brand new reel of 3M 996 (1/2"), on a 6 screw hub! I've got the decks to handle the 1/2" and 1/4", but the 1" is just decoration for now.

I contacted the guy I bought this stuff from and asked if there was another deck he was getting rid of that was for 1". He replied that there wasn't such a machine in his stash. He was getting rid of some equipment of his dad's. Said it was a hobby of his. He is also getting rid of alot of video equipment, but I'm not after that.

I've already called Tascam and ordered a new capstan belt. Now I've got to figure out what to do with this 1" tape...

 

[dodgeaspen]

The studio idea sounds cool. I wish you luck. PM'd you.

 

[A Reel Person]

I...

I would bring the 388 to record in the live venue, plus a 424mkII to use as an outboard submixer if necessary. If you bring your own full kit there's nothing telling you you have to use the live sound feed at all, or optional at best. I'd also bring the 32 for a stereo pair of the stage. Sounds like a lot of gear, but it's moderate and should suffice. I'd hedge against bringing 1/2" reels and big mixers unless absolutely necessary, which would be for 5-or-more piece ensemble. Some submixing would be necessary for most live band recordings, in most cases. YMMV.

1/4" tape keeps the cost down. It's a no brainer.

For the lowest budget solution, record live-to-4 on the Portastudio and call it a day.

Tell them you charge for reel format recordings.

 

[jjones1700]

I would bring the 388 to record in the live venue, plus a 424mkII to use as an outboard submixer if necessary. If you bring your own full kit there's nothing telling you you have to use the live sound feed at all, or optional at best. I'd also bring the 32 for a stereo pair of the stage. Sounds like a lot of gear, but it's moderate and should suffice. I'd hedge against bringing 1/2" reels and big mixers unless absolutely necessary, which would be for 5-or-more piece ensemble. Some submixing would be necessary for most live band recordings, in most cases. YMMV.

1/4" tape keeps the cost down. It's a no brainer.

For the lowest budget solution, record live-to-4 on the Portastudio and call it a day.

Tell them you charge for reel format recordings.

That definitely makes sense Dave. I guess my main concern would be the alignment issue because of moving the decks around.

I guess I could rotate through all of those options and see which gives the best results with the least amount of hassle. I have a feeling you probably nailed it with the 424mkII being the best bet. I've got a handful of cassettes to get me through a few different sessions, but I'll either have to procure more of them or switch to reels because of availability. Ok, cassettes are still available, but I can't justify paying $10/tape that alot of these clowns on ebay are demanding.

I still need to drop in at the place and see what I'll have to work with.

 

[A Reel Person]

...

The 388 will hold it's alignment when moved. It's a fairly rigid headblock design and all the critical adjustments should be loc-tite'd down.

 

[fstrat76]

fstrat shame on you! No more worthy cause of a slipped spinal disc than hauling a tape machine!!!

I didn't even think about that might be part of the reason I actually have pinched nerves in the back! Thanks for the painful reminder!

But seriously......I think a reel to reel as a permanent setup would be good if you do it a lot at the venue. I like the minimalist drum mic approach also. Mic'ing all pieces for different drum sets for every gig takes a lot of time and I'm not convinced that you'll get a big sound difference. Yes, more control over each piece but you are going to submix that anyway.

I think once you know the acoustics in the venue, and different kits and styles and how they react in the venue, you'll get a real good handle on the minimalist approach and it will sound great.

 

[jjones1700]

I didn't even think about that might be part of the reason I actually have pinched nerves in the back! Thanks for the painful reminder!

But seriously......I think a reel to reel as a permanent setup would be good if you do it a lot at the venue. I like the minimalist drum mic approach also. Mic'ing all pieces for different drum sets for every gig takes a lot of time and I'm not convinced that you'll get a big sound difference. Yes, more control over each piece but you are going to submix that anyway.

I think once you know the acoustics in the venue, and different kits and styles and how they react in the venue, you'll get a real good handle on the minimalist approach and it will sound great.

If it becomes a regular enough occurance, I'll consider leaving one of the 1/2" machines up there. For the live stuff, I'll definitely have a minimalist approach. In the studio, there's no telling.

 

[themaddog]

Here's what I suggest:

If they have a decent mixer with direct outs, bring your TSR-8 or 38, since they're not that bulky, compared to a 388. If they don't have direct outs, there might be inserts on each channel. So long as they're not using the inserts for anything (and a lot of smaller clubs probably won't), then you can treat the inserts like direct outs, so long as you don't click your cables all the way in. Inserts use TRS cables to both send and receive, so they click in twice. If you feel around, you will be able to put in a standard 1/4" to RCA cable, so long as it only clicks in once.

I'm sorry I can't describe this any better, but you can try this at home with your mixer to see what I'm talking about. In a bind I did this once to make some recordings with a Peavey live mixer and got pretty good results. Later it was mixed with a proper board. If you check out www.soundclick.com/exnightstalker and check out the song "No Love Lost," that's the track I recorded using a $100 Peavey board and an MSR-16. There's a little more noise than my other recordings, but it's doable.

I think I'd also dedicate a reel or two to this recording endeavor but would transfer to digital. In this way, you could keep recording over the same tapes so it doesn't get too costly, and once you are done transferring them to digital or mixing them down.

What you decide probably will be determined by how the venue sounds. If it's a good sounding room, with a decent PA, then setting up a couple of mics in the back of the room to a two track machine may be your best bet, particularly for acoustic instruments.

If you're doing the 8 track live band thing, I'd try to get the group out from the mixer for two drum tracks. If the sound engineer at the club is decent then it ought to be properly balanced at that point anyway. I'd dedicate a track to bass, one or two to guitars (depending on the instrumentation), and one or two tracks for vocals, depending on what's available. Finally, I'd use your last track or two for a mic or two in the room to compensate for the sound from the board.

Most of all, experiment and have fun!
-MD

 

[jjones1700]

Here's what I suggest:

If they have a decent mixer with direct outs, bring your TSR-8 or 38, since they're not that bulky, compared to a 388. If they don't have direct outs, there might be inserts on each channel. So long as they're not using the inserts for anything (and a lot of smaller clubs probably won't), then you can treat the inserts like direct outs, so long as you don't click your cables all the way in. Inserts use TRS cables to both send and receive, so they click in twice. If you feel around, you will be able to put in a standard 1/4" to RCA cable, so long as it only clicks in once.

I'm sorry I can't describe this any better, but you can try this at home with your mixer to see what I'm talking about. In a bind I did this once to make some recordings with a Peavey live mixer and got pretty good results. Later it was mixed with a proper board. If you check out www.soundclick.com/exnightstalker and check out the song "No Love Lost," that's the track I recorded using a $100 Peavey board and an MSR-16. There's a little more noise than my other recordings, but it's doable.

I think I'd also dedicate a reel or two to this recording endeavor but would transfer to digital. In this way, you could keep recording over the same tapes so it doesn't get too costly, and once you are done transferring them to digital or mixing them down.

What you decide probably will be determined by how the venue sounds. If it's a good sounding room, with a decent PA, then setting up a couple of mics in the back of the room to a two track machine may be your best bet, particularly for acoustic instruments.

If you're doing the 8 track live band thing, I'd try to get the group out from the mixer for two drum tracks. If the sound engineer at the club is decent then it ought to be properly balanced at that point anyway. I'd dedicate a track to bass, one or two to guitars (depending on the instrumentation), and one or two tracks for vocals, depending on what's available. Finally, I'd use your last track or two for a mic or two in the room to compensate for the sound from the board.

Most of all, experiment and have fun!
-MD

Some more good advice for me to chew on. Thanks!

Now, if I remember correctly, it's best to put things like the kick drum and the bass on the outside tracks (#1 / #8), right?

 

[sweetbeats]

Yeah...I usually put kick on track 1, then its only going to irritate 1 other track if you have crosstalk issues, and plus it is not uncommon for there to be lower performance on the edge tracks depending on the format and kick drum is not as critical a source as, say, a cello.

Go Johnny...go Johnny...