Ampex AG-440B-8 Story...

[sweetbeats]

PSST! Steve (guitarmaker)...I PM'ed ya!

 

[sweetbeats]

Trying to get to the bottom of the reel motor thing...

I pulled a reel motor from my 1/4" ~ 1/2" 440 parts transport and compared to the unit pulled from the 440-8...here are the placards on the motors:


1/4" ~ 1/2" transport

1" transport

Obvious differences...of course the start capacitors for each are quite different (the 1" reel motor's being much larger) but I'm not sure if the amperage differences are related just to the individual motors and one is just more efficient or if the output of one is more than the other...I can see that chassis-wise the will fit in each other's places, but...but...urg.

Looking through the manual too to see if there are clues there...

 

[sweetbeats]

It makes you wonder...

What happened to this deck?

The back panel of the console really took a hit at some point...I've mentioned this before but the lighting in the shop this AM really highlighted it...that's pretty heavy gauge steel folks, and since it is a flat panel with a decent area it had to be a quick healthy impact to get the steel to distort in such a concentrated way vs. the whole panel bending. Goodness.

The right tensioner arm is also tweaked. Fortunately the guide is okay and I have a replacement arm on my parts transport that is in good shape.

I also noticed that the solid steel 'C' channel to which the rear wheels mount is tweaked so that the wheels are angled...think of how airplane landing gear looks as it just starts to retract. Its, like, 3/16" or 1/4" plate steel from which that 'C' channel is formed! Was it dropped?? MAN! The dent, bent reel motor shafts, tension arms bent, the original record head knocked off its plate, the wheels...GAH!

So you all knowing me know that that dent is going to bother me...no way I'm going to be able to straighten that out. Haven't got the right tools, plus there would then be repainting needed and its textured, so hopefully I can hang on to what I'm convincing myself of right now which that the dent will be a reminder of the neglected system it was before the refurb, like the pile of ashes from which the phoenix rises......I just need to keep telling myself that..."self, repeat after yourself..." Now I'm talking to myself...

 

[cjacek]

If I recall the auction clearly, the seller wasn't at all forthcoming about the 440's "issues". That's not right. I'm kinda pissed about that.

 

[guitarmaker]

My original "C" motor placard matches your 1/4" machine's motor. Same amperage and capacitance. Odd, it must be that the earlier "B" machines used a heavier motor. I can confirm that these regular 440 motors work just fine and were definitely original to my "C" machine.

Sure looks like someone dropped something really heavy on your machine. Maybe a 15 lb. dumbbell or something. Don't despair, these beasts are infinitely rebuildable and worth it!

Steve

 

[guitarmaker]

Me again,

I just looked through my 440c manual (not the 8 track one but the regular 2/4 track one) and they list three different motor suppliers; GE, Ashland, and Takanawa. They also list both a 5uf and 10uf start capacitor. This leads me to believe that any of the 440 machines could have had your 10uf capacitor using motor and that it wasn't a special thing for the early 440-8 machines.

Steve

 

[sweetbeats]

If I recall the auction clearly, the seller wasn't at all forthcoming about the 440's "issues". That's not right. I'm kinda pissed about that.

I totally understand where you are coming from but he was really, really clear with me in correspondence that he was completely non-technical and was very limited in giving detailed responses. He connected me with a great resource person from the Ampex List (of whom he is also a client regarding repairs and maintenance for his other 440-8) so I could ask questions and I did that.

When I was there it was clear that:

1. the seller is a really great guy
2. hid nothing but was really limited to be forthcoming due to his lack of technical knowledge and many of these issues I'm going to work through would not be apparant to him anyway (particularly the bent motor shafts) because it was a spare deck for him and wasn't operational

I still feel I got a great price for what's there and I'm completely confident that the seller was honest and up front. If it was dropped or something big fell on it I don't think it was in his possession at the time. He picked it up for roughly what he sold it to me as a non operative parts unit, so I think it got furloughed when whatever happened to it occurred. He pointed out a number of things and took time to walk through the machine regarding what he knew and I did contact his tech (who continues to be a mentor and resource in a big way) and picked up some other things to look for/be aware of. I guess I'm putting the blocks together a bit more now plus having found these other things that nobody could have been aware of unless they got into the process like I've done and spent some time with it.

Good reminder for all and caution for anybody picking up a used atr...expect the unexpected. Seldom is it possible to know enough about a machine to predict/ascertain everything about its condition and function before buying. Expect that there will be things to "deal with" after living with it a bit. Of course there are extremely valuable rules of thumb to minimize the risks, but its better to expect that you're not going to eliminate all risk.

I just looked through my 440c manual (not the 8 track one but the regular 2/4 track one) and they list three different motor suppliers; GE, Ashland, and Takanawa. They also list both a 5uf and 10uf start capacitor. This leads me to believe that any of the 440 machines could have had your 10uf capacitor using motor and that it wasn't a special thing for the early 440-8 machines.

Steve, thanks bunches. That helps for sure.

 

[cjacek]

Cory, point taken and good advice too!

 

[cjacek]

Cory, just found this: http://ampex.hughescatalog.com/ and thought that perhaps it may help in your restoration, even though it's a 300 series. At the very least it may motivate even more!

 

[sweetbeats]

Oh cool!

I've dialogued with John outside the Ampex List. Super nice guy!

I'll have a look at that...neat site!

Pecking away at the 440 here and there.

• Most of the compenents have been removed from the face of the transport and at that point I'll be able to easily remove the transport skeleton. The console will be empty and then I can go at cleaning that up and repairing some things on it.
• Transferred components from the supply side reel idler tensioner (that was bent) from my parts transport so now I've got nice straight parts there, and lo-and behold it looks like the idler assembly on the parts deck is a genuine Ampex reman unit...cartridge bearings and all...loads smoother and quieter than the one on the 440-8. Not a big deal as the bearings are about $1 each for new and easily replaceable as long as you have snap-ring pliers, but it is a nice bonus to have the reel idler ready to go (except I'm still on the hunt for the flywheel...there is a special viscous dampened version that was on the AG-1000, MM-1100/1200 and 440 decks and mine is gone...I have the regular flywheel off the parts deck but apparently the viscous type offers some flutter filtering which is more crucial on the 1"+ decks)
• Tore into one of the electronics modules and am comfortable with what's where on those now and I'm ready to make my parts list for recapping. It'll be different to do these than other recap jobs because there are no PCB mounted caps in the module itself...and some of the caps are multi-section caps (3 ~ 4 caps under one can) and I'm replacing with individuals so there will be some fabbing, but I can model Steve Puntilillo's Phatzilla at Sonicraft which uses modded 'B' electronics modules. There really are a relatively low number of electrolytic capacitors on this thing...4 in each power supply, a couple hear, a couple there...I'll do a couple of the modules and compare to non-updated ones once I get it up and running before doing the rest. Plus I'll be doing an A/B comparison of IEC or NAB eq curves since the eq boards are super easy to change from one to the other...

MOSTLY buried in spring projects outside now though, and still finishing up going through my M-520 to get that ready to sell off...and...and...and...

 

[sweetbeats]

Ohhhhhhhkay

So I've been busy on "Bessie" here and there but haven't posted up because I wanted to get new links to previous posts put up first. Now that that's done, here we go, in no particular order:


Caps...

I have almost all the caps on hand now to recap the PSU's, and transport related electronics. Where I could substitute radial caps for axial I did as they are cheaper, but in a number of cases I had to purchase axial. It is more expensive to recap a piece of gear like this...The main filter cap in each PSU is about $20 apiece and about the size of a small shampoo bottle. Electrolytic capacitors in units like the AG-440 are less prone to failure as in more contemporary electronics because the caps were better quality and the ripple filtering was relatively well done which stesses caps downstream of the PSU's less...plus there is more room inside everything and many of the caps are oversize so temp was less of an issue. Nevertheless, it has been 40 years. Its a good idea to "shotgun" them at this point. As far as the record/repro electronics modules go I'm being a bit more strategic. All the bias, record and reproduce cards will have all the electrolytics replaced as well as a tantalum cap on the record cards (the infamous C32 for those that read above). As far as the modules go I'm only replacing 2 of the 10 electrolytics. This is a cost and time issue. One cap is being removed (only needed if using the plug in mic transformer which I won't be using), one is critical (the output coupling capacitor), and all the rest are non-audio. I'm doing one of them which is easier to deal with and is the filter cap for the non-audio section of the module. All the rest of the caps are contained in two multi-section cans and will be more of a project to replace since they aren't on PCB's...there will be some rewiring to do. Since they aren't in the audio path I'm going to leave them for now, but eventually I'll replace them too, and sooner if there are problems switching monitoring sources for example.


Reel Motors...

I mentioned earlier that I pulled a reel motor from my parts transport as well as the 440-8. I figured out how to safely disassemble them. There are roll pins involved that have to be driven out to do it and to do it safely you have to use the proper kind of punch and have some sort of a jig to hold the motor and to support the shaft where the pin is to avoid bending or damaging the shaft or other components. I was able to do this and I also was able to straighten one of the 440-8 motor shafts! It was presenting about 0.020" of runout at the shaft tip...bad. I've got it down to under 0.001" for the entire shaft length. I'll do the same with the other one when it comes off. I slipped the reel table back on temporarily and measured the runout of the face of the reel table and it is less than 0.002". May shift when the roll pin is put back in. Regardless, I can handle 0.002". I think that is likely less than any of my Tascam gear. I was debating if the motor off the parts deck was stronger but some correspondence with Ampex List folks led me to decide to stay with the original motors. There is a possibility that they do indeed have a better torque potential (but maybe not), but even if they don't they aren't worse than the other motors and the rotor shafts (both ends) on the other motors would have to be modded to work...the nose shaft would have to be cut as guitarmaker mentioned, and the tail shaft would have to be drilled for a roll-pin to mount the brake drum...the 440-8 (thankfully) utilizes the original 440 brake drums which are solid, while the 440B and 440C 1 ~ 4 track machines use a one-way clutch-type drum and the pawl-type roller bearings in the clutch drums fail and are difficult to repair. SO...dusting the original motors out, cleaning them up, used the same bearing puller I built for Teac reel motor rebuilding on the Ampex motors and I have replacement bearings on the way. BTW, the original bearings were just nasty/shot/dead. I splurged and spent about $3 each for the new bearings...sealed electric motor quality ABEC-7 (high-precision) bearings.

The brake assemblies are just hurky:

Here's an original motor opened up:

Capstan Motor...

It looks so antiquated from the outside, but it is a heavy precision beast on the inside...Got it all apart and working on cleaning it up...got a replacement tail bearing ordered (again EMQ ABEC-7). The nose bearing is a fixed bronze bushing...kind of wish it was a roller bearing...that may be the source of my 0.001" wiggle room as I discovered there are no spring washers between the transport plate and the capstan motor after all. BTW, the capstan motor at least has a "2/25/69" sticker on it...looks original, hand-written and so I think it is safe to assume that this is indeed a 'B' transport but a very early one. Pictures:

Nose

Tail (open)

Date label

Rotor

Center Guide...

Even though I have a possible lead on a NOS secondary scrape flutter filter (the primary goes between the record and repro heads and the optional secondary goes between the erase and record heads), which replaces the static center guide, I cleaned it up.

Before

After

Rotary Guide...

I've done some work cleaning this up. This is the rotating guide that is the first thing that the tape sees in the tape path. Its in the center of the transport face above the headblock. Its heavy. I removed it, totally disassembled it, cleaned it, and am awaiting fresh bearings. Got the same bearings as for the reel motors. In fact, the entire transport (except for the capstan motor tail bearing) utilizes the same cartridges.

Here is sort of before shot of the rotary guide when I first got Bessie home...it is the round thingy at the very top center-ish of the picture:

Here is an after shot of the 1.25" diameter roller:

And the mounting base and shaft:

Reel Idler...

Look at the "before" picture above of the rotary guide and in the foreground of that picture you see the reel idler with the bent tensioner. I disassembled the thing and was able to see how the tensioner arm from my parts deck will drop right in. Also I had mentioned earlier (I think) about the bearings being good or at least okay in the parts idler housing compared to the one on the 440-8...well, I'm replacing other bearings so I may as well do these two. The idler housing is aluminum and the bearings are a tighter fit as compared to the rotary guide...put the whole thing in the oven on warm for a couple minutes to expand the aluminum and the bearings popped out no problem.

Here is the tensioner arm assembly that will be used...yet to be cleaned but nice and straight:

Here is the housing all cleaned up:

BTW, I may have a lead on an original viscous-type flywheel for the idler. I'll know more next week.


Electronics...

Been picking away at these...mentioned the recapping above. Partially disassembled one module to try and figure out VU meter lense issues. Figured out how to get the lense out. This is important because my 440-8 has a mix of original glass, busted glass, no glass, and plexi-glass for the lenses and I want to replace them all with new glass. I got some appropriately thin glass and bought a $5 glass cutter from the hardware store. It took a little doing but I figured out how to cut the glass and smooth the edges. I have 6 done so far.

Here is the first one:

I have also been working with trying to source new meter lamps. The replacement product is a Sylvania 24PC bulb...not cheap and apparently don't illuminate the meter face in the same way as the original bulbs, but the originals have been out of production for years and years. Unobtanium as they say.

Here is an original bulb:

There's more but those are the highlights. Might seem like a lot but I realize it is just scratching the surface...it fun though. I'll leave you with Bessie's appearance as of late:

 

[sweetbeats]

Located missing covers; electronics module mystery solved...

Located a couple of missing covers for the Ampex: the missing cover for the transport control box, and the very hard-to-find lower cowling that wraps around the front of the transport ('front' meaning as the transport sits horizontal in the console).

Kudos to Wayne Gunn at Audio Village, home of the great analogrules.com website, for having the covers and getting them to me quickly and well-packed!

Also, there has been a mystery with my electronics modules lately. The catalog numbers for all but one are 4020260-05...those last two numbers are the important ones. The 8th module has a -14 revision code instead of the -05 like all the others...turns out my -05 module is sitting in the 440-8 console still owned by the man I bought my 440-8 from, and all HIS modules (except the one) are the -14 revision code. And if that weren't enough evidence, all the serial numbers on my -05 modules are close in series and naturally the -14 module is way off. The -05 module the seller has at his place has a serial number in series with my -05 modules. Make sense? They got switched. He acquired both 440-8 systems from a radio station. Mine was the parts donor. They must have swapped modules at some point for some reason. Fortunately the seller is graciously willing to swap with me. I'll keep you posted on that one of course.

 

[guitarmaker]

Glad you found that wrap around cover. There are some pretty zippy voltages down there! The large adjustable resistors are also somewhat fragile. I have no idea why but I see a lot of 440s for sale with this cover missing.

Wayne is a good guy. I bought my 440C-8 from him.

Steve

 

[sweetbeats]

This was cool...heard audio passed through one of the electronics modules tonight...testing the one that's being swapped for the original one that goes with this deck.

I must say how impressed I am with the sound...take that with a grain of salt as I'm presently deaf in one ear secondary to a ruptured ear drum from a cold, and the signal path in general (more than just the electronics module):

Shure SM57 --> Tascam M-308B mic preamp (EQ off) routed to GROUP 1 --> GROUP 1 out (unbalanced +4dBu) to Ampex module in --> module output to M-308B LINE input (again, EQ off) routed to GROUP 4 --> GROUP 4 monitored via onboard MON mixer using AKG K55 headphones.

The sound of the 57 was full and balanced with a suprising amount of high frequency definition...different than I'm used to. Also, the meter ballistics on those big meters on the electronics module are nice.

Anyway, just a test, but it was fun and I'm getting more familiar with Ampex conventions and how all this stuff works. Had to mock up a dummy plug for the octal socket on the back of the module and e'thing but it made sense.

Its amazing. Here is a chunk of gear from 40 years ago. It sounds great and has a sense of fortitude to it that I'm not used to from the Teac stuff...and the meter lamps take a relatively long time to turn off after you turn the power off which tells me that the local filter cap is relatively healthy. Not what I'd expect after 40 years, but folks on the Ampex List say that ripple was relatively well-managed as well as the caps (most of them) being well-spec'ed for their respective applications, so they experience less stress.

Anyway, whetted my appetite once again to get this beast going.

 

[sweetbeats]

Working at stripping the rest of the stuff off the console...

I figure the best thing for me to do at this point is to get the rest of the components removed from the console so I can get the console rehabilitated. That way there will be something to which I can re-mount refurbished components...the console needs cleaning, touch-up paint, and there is quite a bit of hardware missing especially on the electronics riser blocks...it'll be a much more solid and stable console when I'm done with it. Plus the rear bottom rail (the one the rear wheels mount to) is tweaked pretty bad because two bolts were missing and I figure this thing was rolled down a small step or something so the rear wheels sit sort partially retracted. Once the console is empty I can remove that rail and straighten it in a shop press and then re-mount it properly. Couple-hundred pounds of hardware needs a good safe, stable house.

The power supplies are first on my list of remaining components to, remove, clean up and repair.

There are 4 electrolytic caps in each PSU to replace and I've been advised to replace the rectifier diodes as well. I have all that stuff on-hand so I'll be getting to that soon.

Here they are:

Open the lid and we can see all the caps...three on the underside of the lid and you can see the top of the big one that sits down in the case:

Here is a better view of that big one:

As you can see the big cap is held in by a riveted clamp. I have the proper replacement clamps for the caps I bought which are a Mallory branded computer-grade cap. I'll have to drill out the old clamp and install the new one with hardware.

 

[vincedog3]

What a fantastic project. Love the 440 Ampex. True great American quality tape machine. No computer anything. Man, I am in total Envy. Wow.

 

[sweetbeats]

Well, hold the envy until I actually track something with it! There's a long road ahead.

I tell you what, vincedog, this has been a real eye opener this 440. It is a very different animal than any Teac deck I've run like the 58 and 48. Taking nothing away from those because they posses slick logic transports and advanced head designs, but, as I said to an acquaintance recently it makes up for bells and whistles with balls. That is a crude statement but it was really the best term to describe the experience. There is a certain amount of sophistication lacking, but an abundance of precision and engineering...you don't see it on the surface but you start to dig in and there is a whole lot to appreciate...these things are truly professional in how they're built. 40 years old and the specs hold their ground. And it does what it does with authority...that's the 'balls' part. Everything runs on no less than a 39V power rail. That's considerably more meat than what most 'modern' systems run on and I'm sure that's got something to do with it, but even running basic tests on the electronics module that is being swapped...MAN...totally new experience. Everything than went into that module from my SM57 mic came out on the other end with such clarity and power...it was shocking. And the way that big VU swings. Everything just grunts "I'm ready to kick *ss." But in a focused way...its not a bully, it just wants to get to work.

BTW my module #7 should arrive tomorrow, and then I'll get the seller's module #7 back to him. It'll be nice to have the full original set of electronics modules for this system.

 

[wado1942]

Somebody just gave me a 440b with 1/4" stereo and 1/2" 4-track head blocks. I spent the last 2 days assembling, cleanning & thinking about what I want to do with it. Before I get on with aligning everything, I'd like to change it to IEC 15 I/S & AES 30 I/S. I haven't been able to find any cards out there that can do this. It doesn't seem like it should be hard to mod the existing ones but can't seem to find anything about how to do it.

Do you have any insight into this?

 

[sweetbeats]

I'll post back with more detail in a day or so...I can't help specifically with the 30ips AES curve but I can on the IEC 15ips. There are 1 or 2 caps to replace on each eq daughter board. Relatively simple just can't recall which caps and what values at the moment. You may want to consider joining the Ampex List over at recordistpro.com. They have an extensive list archive that you can access after registering and I betcha the answer on the 30ips AES mods are in there and ultimately you could post to the list.

 

[wado1942]

You know, I joined the group like an hour or 2 after getting the deck (which BTW, sounds fine even at 15 I/S NAB) and haven't been getting any notifications aside from my activation confirmation or been able to get into the archive. A lot of the links seem to be broken on that page too so I kinda wonder if the group is dying. I may end up E-mailing the site owner.

Anyways, AES is pretty much identical to IEC except I think the transition is 9K instead of 4.5K. Thanks for your help.