Amp question

[MrStitch]

I just started practicing again with my band the other day, and realized that my current Marshall solid state amp sucks ass.

So, i'm thinking about getting a new amp... something with some actual tubes, obviously. But on the otherhand, sometime in the future, I really want one of those effects processors. The kind that has multiple banks, so I can switch effects on the fly.

But if I get one of those pedals, then wouldn't I be eliminating any quality 'tone' that I would get from a tube amp, since I would essencially be using the generated sound of the effects pedal?

 

[Scottgman]

Yes, get a tube amp. You won't regret it.

As for effects processors. The answer is yes and no. Anytime you run a signal through a piece of equipment (especially one that does A/D D/A conversion) it will "affect" the signal. However, good effects processors will tend to affect the sound in a pleasing way and/or be reasonably transparent. Bad effects processors will suck your tone to hell.

I've owned a few rack-mount processors (which I think is what you are talking about), an Alesis MidiVerb, a Rocktron Intellifex, and a TC Electronics G-Major.

Both the Alesis and Rocktron were tone "suckers." The effects were OK but I didn't like what they did to my tone. The G-Major is the best processor I've personally used-- I love it. My main amp is a Budda Superdrive and I love the sound. The G-Major does not alter my tone in a bad/noticable way. Also, the MidiVerb and Intellifex were 16bit while the G-Major is 24bit.

The bad thing about rack mount processors is that sometimes it can be frustrating to tweak the parameters if you have never used one. Also, you have to buy a MIDI foot controller to be able to switch effects "on the fly."

Then there are the floor processors made by various companies (digitech, boss, etc.). These are units that are like a big foot pedal. I've tried several of these and have not been impressed with the quality of effects and they seem cheaply made, IMO, and I have doubts as to whether they can handle much abuse.

Good Luck!

 

[Fury]

Whats the problem with the sound of the Marshall? A tube amp should give you a better/warmer/nicer sound but how much of that do you need? Do not take offense but it sounds like you started out pretty recently...give it time. Try other brands of amps at the volume you play at for the band. A multi-effects is not bad, but when I started a big ole' marshall and some decent pedals, reverb, delay, distortion, eq were all fun to get a "better unique" sound.

 

[Scottgman]

Whats the problem with the sound of the Marshall? A tube amp should give you a better/warmer/nicer sound but how much of that do you need?

Well if he's already unhappy with his tone... I'd say he needs alot of it!

I'm not trying to argue with you, Fury, because I understand your point. If he's a newbie, there might be cheaper/easier ways to improve his tone and/or skill.

But there is just something about how a tube amp resonds to your playing that is hard to describe. It's a nice feedback loop. When you are liking the sound coming out of the amp, it makes you want to play better, harder, more passionately and a tube amp seems to respond by sounding better. The more you put into a tube amp, the more you get out of it... if that makes any sense.

The bottom-line is that if you are unhappy with the sound coming out of your amp, you will be less likely to play. If you love the sound coming out of your amp, you will tend to play more. It's pretty obvious which of those outcomes will make you a better guitar player.

And probably the single, easiest, best way to improve your sound is to get a better amp.

I say go for it, you won't regret it!

 

[MrStitch]

Well, our band started quite a while ago, and I got stuck buying this amp cause I was really broke..... it's the rock bottom of Marshalls product line for a 100w stack head.

It's the first head that i've ever owned, and i'm not quite so sure I liked it even when i first pulled it out of the box. But it only cost me $350, and it came from Musicians Friend, so i could make payments. (pathetic, i know)

So we're definatly not talking about some "so-so", or "average" amp here... this is the bottom of the pile... And judging by the sound, i'm thinking I paid more for the "Marshall" name plate, than I did for the amp itself.

Oh, and what I was saying before about the foot pedal, switching on the fly..... I WAS thinking about buying one of those pedals by "Boss" or whoever... the kind that has all the effects, and banks in the pedal itself.

Is that a really bad idea? I did know someone that had the rack effects like you were talking about, and his sound was nice... but a little too crunchy.

Further more... my stack kinda "farts"... hahaha...... just a little when I palm mute a low E, on high volume. Is that a problem with a cheap amp, or is it the cab? My cab has 4 celetion 10's. Rated for 200 or 500 watts... can't remember to be honest. So again... I tend to lean towards a shitty head.

Thoughts?

 

[Scottgman]

There's nothing pathetic about buying a cheap amp... we've all done it.

What kind of music do you play?

The farting sound could be lots of things including the head, guitar, or cabinet. If you suspect the head, take the cabinet and your guitar to someone who has a guitar amp and try running their amp into your cabinet. If it doesn't fart then you know the head is the problem. That's what I'd do, anyway.

As for the effects, you should really just start researching them and go test drive some units. Try several different models. The differences in sound quality are stark.

Also, you shouldn't really get any "crunch" out of an effects processor. Even if it has built in distortion effects, digitial distortion is the red-headed step-child of the distortion family-- just say no.

Cheers!

 

[MrStitch]

Crud.. now all i gotta do is test out some units. But the problem is, where I live, we don't have any good music shops that have anything on hand like that. Thats why I live on peoples feedback about this kind of stuff

So digital distortion is bad? What effects processors would be digital then? Or, even better... What types of things do I need to look for, if not digital?

Sorry, 'bout all the questions... it's only been recently that i've gotten into the effects thing. Until now, I've been strictly a 'plug the guitar in, and play'.

 

[Scottgman]

All the multi-effects processors are going to be digital. Some processors include distortion as an effect-- thus, they have digital distortion (though you don't have to use it). I was simply saying that digital distortion usually doesn't sound very good. Most distortion pedals are analog, by the way.

You can also get nice sounding distortion from a good tube amp. I don't really like solid state amp distortion but some people do. I also prefer using the distortion from my tube amp instead of distortion pedals or effects processors. My effects processor is used for reverb, delay, chorus, pitch, flange, etc. It's also got a compressor and noise gate. No distortion.

Here's what I've got:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/153002/

But to control a rack unit multi effects processor like that, you need an additional foot controller, like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=guitar/search/detail/base_pid/700759/

This is a floor type multi effects processor (it has distortion):
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=guitar/search/detail/base_pid/151378/

You really just have to figure out what you want and need and then try some out. Reading reviews and product descriptions can help you narrow your choices, but you should test drive a few to decide which one you like.

 

[MrStitch]

k.... So if I understand this right, you just go ahead and use the distortion from the amp itself, but yet you still have SOME effect applied.

But what about switching to a clean channel that has effects as well? Does this equipment allow you to switch to the clean channel on your amp, AND use the effects all at the same time?

There is a lot of stuff that I like to play with the clean sound, but I don't see how it all works when switching to another channel. However, I do understand that I could switch to the clean channel, while still using the effects allready running via the rack equipment, but what if you want different effects applied to the clean channel? Would I have to switch channels to go to the clean sound, and then hit ANOTHER switch to get the effects I want?

By the way.. thanks in advance! This would really clear up quite a bit for me.

 

[geet73]

My friend uses a behringer foot controller with his G Major.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=key/search/detail/base_pid/182469/

It works just fine. Feels pretty solid. He's had it for a few years now, no problems.

 

[SteveK]

First off I TOTALLY agree with the idea of purchasing the best (to your ears) TUBE amp you can afford. It really makes a difference both in the way the amp sounds and the way it feels/plays. Definitely get your distortion from the amp (tubes) and use pedals to spice up the sound. Keep in mind the difference between power amp/non-master volume amps, and preamp distortion/master volume types. I personally don't care for rack gear at this point in time...used to go through a rack full of harmonizers, delays, etc. (Although the G-Major is a very good sounding unit as Scott said) The other alternative is to build a pedal board with the pedals you need. This way you can choose each one individually, instead of having to use what a particular company decides to place in its multi-effector. I'm playing a 2 channel tube amp for clean and hi-gain and using a pedal for my crunch(3rd channel). Here's a pic of my gigging pedal board:

Good luck on the quest!

 

[MrStitch]

Wow.... that looks complicated. I'm definatley gunna need some schooling on how the heck all that works together.... 'cause I don't see how it actually functions

I've heard of these pedal boards before, and i've seen pic's of pro's using them instead of lots of rack effects. Does the fact that the pedals are 'analog' affect the quality of the sound? In other words, would i get a better sound from an anolog device vs. using digital?

Furthermore... when using a pedal setup, like you got... Is there some sort of main controller for the pedals - Similar to the midi multi bank pedel that everyone else is talking about?

All of a sudden, I feel like i'm getting in way over my head.

 

[SteveK]

Stitch,
Don't feel that way, it's actually much easier and glitch free than a rack system. My guitar plugs into the white Fulltone Clyde wah>Strobostomp tuner>Barber Tone Press compressor>Fulltone Fat Boost (clean boost)>Fulltone Fulldrive 2(Crunch channel)>Fulltone Choralflange>amp. The black box in the lower row is a channel switcher for my amp and the larger black box is the receiver for my rarely used wireless. Admittedly, the pedals I'm using are not cheap, but I find the ease of setup, and error free use is a definite plus when gigging. I also have a practice pedalboard for home use:

If you want to talk about it, email me and I'll be glad to give you a call.
Don't forget though that some people swear by their all in one boxes/rack gear...this is all just my opinion based on what I need in a set-up.
Here's a great site for info on all guitar related gear:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/

My name there is SteveK

 

[tacurtis]

This is a good thread, with lots of worthy advice from all angles.

I'll add my 2 cents to the mix.

Maybe you've already done this, so forgive me for going over old ground if you have. But I would trouble-shoot everything in my rig just to make sure it really is the amp.

What about your guitar? You said you get a farty sound from your amp; have you double-checked to make absolutely sure you don't have a guitar problem? Check that it isn't the guitar by plugging yours into someone else's amp. (This is kind of a half-ass thing to say, but you can always try out other amps on the sly by answering ads for amps for sale locally. Tell them you want to try yor guitar in it before buying, LOL. It works!) You can always try plugging into your bass player's rig as well.

Check that it isn't the cord by trying a different one (you'd be amazed at the difference for the worse a crappy cord can make!).

Try having someone else plug their guitar (that you know sounds good through their amp) into your amp set at the settings you say give you farty sounds. (You can even use a bass guitar if necessary as long as you don't turn it up too loud.)

BTW, you never did tell us exactly what model amp stack you got. Is it too late to return to MF if necessary? One thing I like about Music 123 is that you get 45 days to retun an item, no questions asked.

Good luck. . .

 

[MrStitch]

I can't remember the model off the top of my head right now. I wanna say its something like GR5CD or some crap like that. Looking at the web site, it doesn't look like they have it anymore... it was probably some really cheap build sold to mass merchants like Musicians Friend.

The speaker cab is by Crate, and has 4 Celetions (spelling?), with a switch on it to change it from 8ohms to 4ohm. (That part is not electrical, i don't think... more like changing the wiring via slider switch).

I doubt its the cab... it seems like a fairly sturdy work horse, that handls a lot. I would have to agree about trying out another amp tho. I've had my guitar forever, and don't plan on changing... unless, god forbid, the neck warps into a boomerang.

I'm kinda interested in this pedal idea tho. The biggest problem i see with the whole digital format, is it seems you're paying a lot of money to get more effects than you want, or will ever use. These companies seem to cram everything they can in there, and in the process of making it affordable, you sacrafice quality for quantity.

I would think that it's worth your time (and money for that matter), to sink more cash in ONE effect. On the other hand.... does anyone know who makes the best pedals? Or who has the better chorus, distortion, or reverb? And what about the obvious... What's the best bang for the buck?

Somehow i find myself a little excited about the stompbox approach....

 

[MrStitch]

Oh... almost forgot.

Me and the band have decided to not ever buy this kind of equipment from mass merchants again. Most because... if it breaks, whos gunna fix it? I know that if it's under warranty, you can send it back, and yadda yadda yadda. But we got lucky, and found a local downtown shop thats gunna give us the same deals that big guys offer. Knowing that.... i'll just buy from down there, and if theres a problem.... I have an ACTUAL PERSON and STORE FRONT that I can go to.

 

[Scottgman]

You are right about the quality vs. quantity issue with rackmounts. They give you lots of effects and some may not sound great. For instance a GOOD chorus pedal will probably sound better than a chorus effect in a multi-effects processor. Obviously, the more money you spend, the better the effects will sound-- and that's usually true for both pedals an processors.

On the pedals vs. rackmount issue, you're getting to see both sides of the spectrum. Some guys like SteveK (nice pedals Steve!) like the pedal approach. Others like the multi-effects approach.

By the way, when you using rack-mount effects, they run through your amp's effects loop. That way, it doesn't matter if you are using the distortion or clean channel on your amp, the effects will be the same.

My problem with going all pedals is that sometimes you have to do the "pedal tap dance." Let's say you are playing a song and changing from the chorus back to the verse. You want to turn-off the distortion, turn-on the chorus and reverb, and turn on the delay. That's 4 pedals you have to hit in what may be literally 1 second! You only have two feet and you need one of them to stand!

I was going for simplicity with my rig. With the multi-effects processor, I can setup a patch that has chorus, reverb, and delay, so that I only have to hit two pedals (distortion foot-switch and the effects patch) instead of the 4 in the previous scenerio.

I attached pics of my rig. A Sabine guitar tuner and a G-Major in the homemade rack (my dad has an awesome set of tools! ).

Then my foot action stuff. ART MIDI foot controller, the distortion switch for my amp, and a wah pedal.


I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other. It's all about what works for you, what you want, and what you need. Go try some stuff and make up your own mind.

Cheers!

 

[MrStitch]

Allright... now were getting somewhere. Ok, so the dancing around the pedals thing might be a little too much for me. God knows i'm not that good of a guitarist, and even a worse dancer..

Does anyone make some sort of multi channel connecting point for stomp boxes?

For instance... What if I had certain boxes to make up the one distortion sound that I want. And another set to make up the clean sound that I want. Is there anything out there that would alow me to hookup one set of boxes on one channel, and another set of boxes on another channel? And of course, have the ability to switch channels via single switch stomp box.

(Good god, i'm just loaded with questions now!)

To take this a step further... someone allready previously mentioned that getting a good quality tube amp is the way to go. And they stated they liked the distortion from that amp. But what if I DID like the distortion from my amp, but wanted to dress up the clean sound.... is there a way to have effects applied to only one channel on your amp?

Christ... after all this... every single one of us is gunna be a certifed engineer!

 

[SteveK]

As far as pedal dancing goes, you could also use a looper. I've seen them in as large a set as eight switches. It would be a straight long box at the bottom of your board(closest to your foot)with a footswitch for each loop. You could have your delay and chorus routed to switch #1, and your delay and distortion to switch #2 etc. This way each switch would trigger a group of pedals and decrease the number of "dance steps" involved. The other option with pedals is to rack 'em and use a midi switcher to trigger them individually or in groups... For me and the kind of music we play, blues, blues rock, and classic rock & metal, the pedal route just works better. But don't forget the TUBE amp part of the equation, and that the most important part of the tone equation is your brain, heart, and fingers!

 

[MrStitch]

Kick ass.. So they DO make something like that. Sweet, I can get a good tube amp, a swtich like you said, route several pedals to individual banks, and still stick with the analog sound.

Just a couple more questions now, and I can put this beast to rest!

This is in regaurds to sound QUALITY, and by that I mean, 'hiss', 'buzz' 'pops' 'gains' etc. - What are the drawbacks to having stompboxes vs. having digital effects?

And, does using batteries vs using power supplies make a difference?

Thank SO MUCH for all the advice guys. You have no idea how much this helps!