Again, Guitar Center Oktavas
- Thread starter bongolation
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dobro
Well-known member
Lots of polarized viewpoints in this thread.
One more: Axis, your comments are valid as a rule-of-thumb approach, and it's sensible to be skeptical about what you hear on the net, especially where people are selling things. But Harvey's points go beyond go beyond generalizations to specifics - if the Sound Room does the screening work that Oktavas need, and they provide documentation for it, then that's valuable information. It's also a valuable service, and worth paying for. If you accept what I've said so far, then the only question left is 'well, is it worth paying what the SR charges for that service?'.
Another one: RE, just to clarify, I took one shot at something you said, and one shot at you. First shot - I don't think an appeal to one's reputation is anywhere near as convincing as an appeal to the facts. In this thread, what Harvey said about Sound Room Oktavas was much more convincing than what you've said so far - not because he's Harvey Gerst, but because he referred to important facts. Second shot - you *haven't* been involved in this bbs recently - okay, is that a loyalty issue or a commitment issue? Is loyalty just a matter of standing up for a buddy in a fight? And yes, I admit I'm off-topic and being bitchy on this one.
One more: Axis, your comments are valid as a rule-of-thumb approach, and it's sensible to be skeptical about what you hear on the net, especially where people are selling things. But Harvey's points go beyond go beyond generalizations to specifics - if the Sound Room does the screening work that Oktavas need, and they provide documentation for it, then that's valuable information. It's also a valuable service, and worth paying for. If you accept what I've said so far, then the only question left is 'well, is it worth paying what the SR charges for that service?'.
Another one: RE, just to clarify, I took one shot at something you said, and one shot at you. First shot - I don't think an appeal to one's reputation is anywhere near as convincing as an appeal to the facts. In this thread, what Harvey said about Sound Room Oktavas was much more convincing than what you've said so far - not because he's Harvey Gerst, but because he referred to important facts. Second shot - you *haven't* been involved in this bbs recently - okay, is that a loyalty issue or a commitment issue? Is loyalty just a matter of standing up for a buddy in a fight? And yes, I admit I'm off-topic and being bitchy on this one.
Ok, I'll chip in. Anybody who doesn't know who RE (Weston Ray) is around here--and what an outstanding reputation he has for being frank, honest, sincere, and very knowledgeable about microphones--is ignorant and shouldn't be shooting their mouths off, especially when they haven't been around here long enough to know JACK about this place and the people who post here. RE has many friends here because he has EARNED them.
Judeholand: you are excused, sir.
A quote from Bongolation: "This is the Internet and one establishes reputation by informational content rather than asserted credentials anyway. Trust me, I've been on the net since '83 and I can tell you that these personality rampages just come across as unpleasant psychological symptoms and as such undermine the credibility the poster so urgently seeks."
That's a deleriously ironic comment coming from some newbie with only six posts--especially when directed at RE, one of the most established and respected people at this site because of his loyalty to helping others and his "informational content" which is ALWAYS first rate.
Trust you? Nobody here is stupid enough to trust you. But there are plenty of us here who trust RE. He's earned it, and he has helped many here and never let anybody down that I know of. Sorry, nobody here knows you or trusts you.
Axis: You should know better. You make disparaging remarks that are obviously directed at RE and Harvey, then try to hide behind a veil of "generalization." That's dishonest. If you want to argue mics or quality control or whatever, argue away. But the way you have littered this thread with rumor and innuendo in an attempt to discredit people (including Taylor johnson) you know little or nothing about is disgraceful. Unfortunate for you.
Dobro: You disappoint.
Harvey: Welcome. I'll take you advice anyday. Your reputation precedes you. I admire your patience and even temper.
Judeholand: you are excused, sir.
A quote from Bongolation: "This is the Internet and one establishes reputation by informational content rather than asserted credentials anyway. Trust me, I've been on the net since '83 and I can tell you that these personality rampages just come across as unpleasant psychological symptoms and as such undermine the credibility the poster so urgently seeks."
That's a deleriously ironic comment coming from some newbie with only six posts--especially when directed at RE, one of the most established and respected people at this site because of his loyalty to helping others and his "informational content" which is ALWAYS first rate.
Trust you? Nobody here is stupid enough to trust you. But there are plenty of us here who trust RE. He's earned it, and he has helped many here and never let anybody down that I know of. Sorry, nobody here knows you or trusts you.
Axis: You should know better. You make disparaging remarks that are obviously directed at RE and Harvey, then try to hide behind a veil of "generalization." That's dishonest. If you want to argue mics or quality control or whatever, argue away. But the way you have littered this thread with rumor and innuendo in an attempt to discredit people (including Taylor johnson) you know little or nothing about is disgraceful. Unfortunate for you.
Dobro: You disappoint.
Harvey: Welcome. I'll take you advice anyday. Your reputation precedes you. I admire your patience and even temper.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Small world,Harvey!
What time frame were you QC guy at IMC?I held that job here on Lancaster St. from '95-97 untill Akaii bought it from Tommy Moore and moved out to the Alliance airport to become AMIC.I did Charvel-Jackson (now also selling Dana Burgoiese guitars)with Todd Talieferro and Charles Perrino,Akaii-Ross with Mark Glazier and Rhythm Band with Bob and Laura Bergin (where I remain today).
I had dinner with my older brother last night and he told me he had a phone conversation with you a couple of weeks ago about your digging up an old half inch two track to transer his old band pre-master to CD.I'll come along and say hi if that happens.
Tom
What time frame were you QC guy at IMC?I held that job here on Lancaster St. from '95-97 untill Akaii bought it from Tommy Moore and moved out to the Alliance airport to become AMIC.I did Charvel-Jackson (now also selling Dana Burgoiese guitars)with Todd Talieferro and Charles Perrino,Akaii-Ross with Mark Glazier and Rhythm Band with Bob and Laura Bergin (where I remain today).
I had dinner with my older brother last night and he told me he had a phone conversation with you a couple of weeks ago about your digging up an old half inch two track to transer his old band pre-master to CD.I'll come along and say hi if that happens.
Tom
The Axis
TDUKEX
Piss on you !!
I presented FACTS and clearly presented my opinions as such. Anyone can reread my posts and see exactly what I said. If I wanted to discredit someone, I would not use innuendo. I would clearly say "Screw you you ignorant bastard !" ....as I am doing to you now.
Rick
TDUKEX
Piss on you !!
I presented FACTS and clearly presented my opinions as such. Anyone can reread my posts and see exactly what I said. If I wanted to discredit someone, I would not use innuendo. I would clearly say "Screw you you ignorant bastard !" ....as I am doing to you now.
Rick
Harvey Gerst
New member
Hi Tom,Tom Hicks said:
I was Director of Electronics from 1987 to 1988, and that also put me in charge of QC (I was also in charge of the cabinet shop, which I never understood why. That was when Jerry Freed was still President of the company. To help with that time frame, the Akai 1214 and S900 had just come out, I designed the Hurricane speakers for Ross, the Jackson Amps, and the little Charvel amps (the red cone was my idea as well). Andy and Tom reported to me.
Yup, you're just down the road apiece. Come on out anytime.
Harvey
regebro
Insane Genious!
Well, Axis, you say this:
"You keep implying that I THINK you are in league with the Sound Room. I don't. But like I said: I wonder and I am skeptical. That is all. "
So you say that you wonder if these people are in league with the Sound Room. Well, the persons you wonder about have made it totally clear that this is not the case. If you continue to be "sceptical" and "wonder" about this, what you are in fact doing is implying that they are lying.
tdukex is completely right. You SHOULD know better. Apologies are in order, I think.
"You keep implying that I THINK you are in league with the Sound Room. I don't. But like I said: I wonder and I am skeptical. That is all. "
So you say that you wonder if these people are in league with the Sound Room. Well, the persons you wonder about have made it totally clear that this is not the case. If you continue to be "sceptical" and "wonder" about this, what you are in fact doing is implying that they are lying.
tdukex is completely right. You SHOULD know better. Apologies are in order, I think.
The Axis
Regebro:
One need not apologize for "wondering and being skeptical" that is the PROPER way to interpret assertions made on internet forums.
Please notice that in my posts I also repeatedly said that if AF McKay is making false accusations, we should get That truth out also. ( a reread will confirm this)
I wonder and am skeptical about AF McKay's side of the story also !
The difference is: AF Mckay's claim that they are the sole worldwide distributor seems to be well corroborated by the OKTAVA home page and the AF McKay page. They also replied directly in unequivocal terms to the question. THe Sound Room's webpage also corroborates that they have backed way off on using the name "OKTAVA". THese are all documented, investigatable FACTS...they don't depend on my opinion or assertions whatsoever.
Taylor Johnson is completely silent (thusfar, here) on the issue, and I am now starting to experience the backlash of personal defenders that AF McKay referred to in their email. Again, ironically, this corroborates their version of the story. A little imagination can easily project how a guilty party might behave as opposed to the non-guilty party.
I repeat again and for the final time: Let's bring out FACTS. I don't give a rat's ass whether Taylor Johnson, RE, AF McKay, or anyone else who wants to be involved is Satan Himself or a God...I want the Facts, and I will continue to be wondering and Skeptical of BOTH sides until someone presents some CONCRETE evidence. The reply I received from AF MCkay was just ONE piece of CONCRETE evidence. I presented it as such.
If you don't like negative evidence about somone you respect, or is a friend...sorry. That's the only apology you get.
Peace,
Rick
Regebro:
One need not apologize for "wondering and being skeptical" that is the PROPER way to interpret assertions made on internet forums.
Please notice that in my posts I also repeatedly said that if AF McKay is making false accusations, we should get That truth out also. ( a reread will confirm this)
I wonder and am skeptical about AF McKay's side of the story also !
The difference is: AF Mckay's claim that they are the sole worldwide distributor seems to be well corroborated by the OKTAVA home page and the AF McKay page. They also replied directly in unequivocal terms to the question. THe Sound Room's webpage also corroborates that they have backed way off on using the name "OKTAVA". THese are all documented, investigatable FACTS...they don't depend on my opinion or assertions whatsoever.
Taylor Johnson is completely silent (thusfar, here) on the issue, and I am now starting to experience the backlash of personal defenders that AF McKay referred to in their email. Again, ironically, this corroborates their version of the story. A little imagination can easily project how a guilty party might behave as opposed to the non-guilty party.
I repeat again and for the final time: Let's bring out FACTS. I don't give a rat's ass whether Taylor Johnson, RE, AF McKay, or anyone else who wants to be involved is Satan Himself or a God...I want the Facts, and I will continue to be wondering and Skeptical of BOTH sides until someone presents some CONCRETE evidence. The reply I received from AF MCkay was just ONE piece of CONCRETE evidence. I presented it as such.
If you don't like negative evidence about somone you respect, or is a friend...sorry. That's the only apology you get.
Peace,
Rick
CMiller
New member
Well I think you're all a bunch of know-nothing idiots...every last one of you!
There, hopefully I've cleared the air a little.
I think that ANYONE should entertain a dose of sketicism when hearing rumors on the internet and especially when you hear it coming from people who are essentially competitors.
It comes down to this fact...Taylor Johnson says his company does a little extra quality control on these things to make sure they sound as nearly identical as possible. Guitar Center says this is BS and they all sound good. That's all we know for sure.
From what I understand, Taylor has an extremely generous return policy if you feel his mic testing sucks.
Guitar Center is a huge corporation where you can be sure that the guy behind the counter has minutes upon minutes of experience performing his own tests in a big building filled with the sounds of screaming guitars and 15 year old kids trying out new drums kits for their girlfriends.
Look, the bottom line is...I don't give a shit about any of your resumes. I really don't. But if one of you gives me a recommendation, I'll look into it as a possibilty if I'm in the market. I'm sure as hell not going to buy a mic because some bozo I've never met from the internet told me to. I'll check it out myself.
For the record, it isn't hard to imagine that these Russian mics have quality control problems and that there might be a varying degree of consistency from mic to mic. Either you trust that Taylor is going the extra mile or you don't. Considering the relatively limited numbers he works with as opposed to Guitar Center's units, it isn't hard for me to believe him.
By the way, didn't the article written in EQ or Mix say back up Taylor's assertions that he tests them? Weston will know what article I'm talking about. The mic shootout article last summer.
There, hopefully I've cleared the air a little.
I think that ANYONE should entertain a dose of sketicism when hearing rumors on the internet and especially when you hear it coming from people who are essentially competitors.
It comes down to this fact...Taylor Johnson says his company does a little extra quality control on these things to make sure they sound as nearly identical as possible. Guitar Center says this is BS and they all sound good. That's all we know for sure.
From what I understand, Taylor has an extremely generous return policy if you feel his mic testing sucks.
Guitar Center is a huge corporation where you can be sure that the guy behind the counter has minutes upon minutes of experience performing his own tests in a big building filled with the sounds of screaming guitars and 15 year old kids trying out new drums kits for their girlfriends.
Look, the bottom line is...I don't give a shit about any of your resumes. I really don't. But if one of you gives me a recommendation, I'll look into it as a possibilty if I'm in the market. I'm sure as hell not going to buy a mic because some bozo I've never met from the internet told me to. I'll check it out myself.
For the record, it isn't hard to imagine that these Russian mics have quality control problems and that there might be a varying degree of consistency from mic to mic. Either you trust that Taylor is going the extra mile or you don't. Considering the relatively limited numbers he works with as opposed to Guitar Center's units, it isn't hard for me to believe him.
By the way, didn't the article written in EQ or Mix say back up Taylor's assertions that he tests them? Weston will know what article I'm talking about. The mic shootout article last summer.
Wide Awake
New member
CMiller- if you know the issue of the shootout let us know. Was it in EM ?
regebro
Insane Genious!
One need not apologize for "wondering and being skeptical" that is the PROPER way to interpret assertions made on internet forums.
True. But one DOES need to apologize to people when you imply that they are lying. Which you do when you imply that they are connected to the Sound Room even when they say that they are not.
I repeat again and for the final time: Let's bring out FACTS.
Fine, so give us the facts that you obviously have when you claim that people are lying. Cuz in effect, thats what you are doing.
I want the Facts, and I will continue to be wondering and Skeptical of BOTH sides until someone presents some CONCRETE evidence.
What kind of concrete evidence? How do you present evidence that you are NOT connected to the Sound Room? Yup, right, you can't present evidece of the absence of things. That includes connections. If you have evidence that people here are affiliated with the Sound Room, present it. Until then, don't imply that they are.
Peoples personal experience as told here is that GC Oktavas are unrealiable, and that Sound Room Oktavas are reliable. Now, either this really is their experience or they are lying. When you constantly claim that you are "skeptical" of this, you are again implying that they are lying. I assumed this was unintentional, but since you continue this even after me pointing it out to you in my previous post, I guess that was not the case. Obviously you are fully aware that you imply that people are lying. So why do you do it? Are YOU connected to GC? If not why are you prepared to claim that people are lying when they give us their experience with GC?
If you don't like negative evidence about somone you respect, or is a friend...
I don't know any of the people here, and I have no special reverence or respect for any of the people you are referring to. This is not about them. It's about YOU. I'm just telling you that you behave badly and asking you to stop it. Thats it.
True. But one DOES need to apologize to people when you imply that they are lying. Which you do when you imply that they are connected to the Sound Room even when they say that they are not.
I repeat again and for the final time: Let's bring out FACTS.
Fine, so give us the facts that you obviously have when you claim that people are lying. Cuz in effect, thats what you are doing.
I want the Facts, and I will continue to be wondering and Skeptical of BOTH sides until someone presents some CONCRETE evidence.
What kind of concrete evidence? How do you present evidence that you are NOT connected to the Sound Room? Yup, right, you can't present evidece of the absence of things. That includes connections. If you have evidence that people here are affiliated with the Sound Room, present it. Until then, don't imply that they are.
Peoples personal experience as told here is that GC Oktavas are unrealiable, and that Sound Room Oktavas are reliable. Now, either this really is their experience or they are lying. When you constantly claim that you are "skeptical" of this, you are again implying that they are lying. I assumed this was unintentional, but since you continue this even after me pointing it out to you in my previous post, I guess that was not the case. Obviously you are fully aware that you imply that people are lying. So why do you do it? Are YOU connected to GC? If not why are you prepared to claim that people are lying when they give us their experience with GC?
If you don't like negative evidence about somone you respect, or is a friend...
I don't know any of the people here, and I have no special reverence or respect for any of the people you are referring to. This is not about them. It's about YOU. I'm just telling you that you behave badly and asking you to stop it. Thats it.
Which part of "I am not saying they are LYING, I am saying I remain skeptical of all internet forums assertions" don't you understand ?
Which part of the FACT THAT "I am not saying they are LYING, I am saying I remain skeptical of all internet forums assertions" don't you understand ?
I don't care if they are connected to the Sound Room or Not. I want the facts about the mikes, their source, and whether they are HOT or whether AF McKay is the one doing the false accusations. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I repeatedly state that I am skeptical of them ALSO !
A statement on the OKTAVA website that the SR IS an aurthorized dealer might be one piece of evidence. I can think of lots of credidible evidence that could be given. The main thing is that I didn't want it to be based on INTERNET RUMOR...which it still seems to be.
Which part of the FACT THAT "I am not saying they are LYING, I am saying I remain skeptical of all internet forums assertions" don't you understand ?
You seem to be confusing the concept of "skepticism" with "implying they are lying"...just get a dictionary. That is all I can advise at this point.
You seem to be confusing the concept of "skepticism" with "implying they are lying"...just get a dictionary. That is all I can advise at this point.
Besides, I EXPECT people to be skeptical of my posts. That is why I provided my reasonings, labelled my opinions as such, clearly stated that I am skeptical of BOTH sides, and published the FULL TEXT of my communication with AF McKay. I DON't work for GC...but YOU CAN assume that I do if you want...because it doesn't change FACTS.
Questioning the veracity of a potentially vicious internet rumor is behaving badly ?
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. I published an email that I got from AF McKay. I warned people about unskeptical belief in internet rumor. If the people who are claiming to have credibility here ACTUALLY DO have credibility, why not just establish it with continued FACTUAL INFORMATION, instead of trying to bully anyone who dares question off the Forum ?
Unfortunately, the rabid reception that I have received from trying to post FACTS and emphasize that I want to get at the TRUTH, simply reinforces AF McKay's email and makes me even more skeptical.
Sorry..just telling it like it is. I probably won't bother to visit here much anymore.
"Those who refuse to learn are doomed to wallow in their own ignorance."
Good luck to all with your Sound Room mikes. I'm sure they are very nice.
DOBRO: I wasn't keeping score.
Peace,
Rick
Wide Awake
New member
Why does the Sound Room refer to the mics as RTT ? I don't remember any of the magazines reviews I've read using that name. That information might clear up some of the confusion.
Harvey Gerst
New member
Because the McKays legitimately own the rights to the Oktava brand name world-wide as the distributor of Oktava mics.Wide Awake said:
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
Sanger, TX
www.ITRstudio.com/
regebro
Insane Genious!
Originally posted by The Axis
Which part of "I am not saying they are LYING, I am saying I remain skeptical of all internet forums assertions" don't you understand ?
For the third time: When you say that you are skeptical towards the claims made by several people here, you are automatically implying that they are lying.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I repeatedly state that I am skeptical of them ALSO !
Because it is irrelevant. This is not about whether McKay is lying or not. He is not active on this BBS. This is about YOUR BEHAVIOUR.
You seem to be confusing the concept of "skepticism" with "implying they are lying"...just get a dictionary. That is all I can advise at this point.
I'll try to do this as clear as possible:
Adam says: "My thumb hurts!"
Bono says: "I am skeptical towards that claim."
So, Bono says he does not beleive that Adams claim is true. It can only be false if Adam is lying. Hence Bono is implying that Adam may be lying.
There. If you don't understand it now, you need to whack yourself in the head with a plank so that your head starts working.
I quote from your earlier posts:
"The allegation that GC sells inferior products is absurd"
What you say here is that the persons who say that their experience is that GC sells inferior products, are lying.
"Quality control MUST come from the manufacturer. It CANNOT be done by a distributor. "
This is not only a blatantly stupid and incorrect remark, you are now again saying that the people who say that they get higher quality products from SR than GC are in fact lying.
"Engineers or QC Inspectors that also frequent this forum can corroborate this view. "
I am an engineer. I have worked as a QC inspector. Your view on QC is wrong, QC can be done by the distributor. Sure, it's a stupid, inefficient and expensive way of doing it, but it can be done. So, you are, again, completely wrong.
Which part of "I am not saying they are LYING, I am saying I remain skeptical of all internet forums assertions" don't you understand ?
For the third time: When you say that you are skeptical towards the claims made by several people here, you are automatically implying that they are lying.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I repeatedly state that I am skeptical of them ALSO !
Because it is irrelevant. This is not about whether McKay is lying or not. He is not active on this BBS. This is about YOUR BEHAVIOUR.
You seem to be confusing the concept of "skepticism" with "implying they are lying"...just get a dictionary. That is all I can advise at this point.
I'll try to do this as clear as possible:
Adam says: "My thumb hurts!"
Bono says: "I am skeptical towards that claim."
So, Bono says he does not beleive that Adams claim is true. It can only be false if Adam is lying. Hence Bono is implying that Adam may be lying.
There. If you don't understand it now, you need to whack yourself in the head with a plank so that your head starts working.
I quote from your earlier posts:
"The allegation that GC sells inferior products is absurd"
What you say here is that the persons who say that their experience is that GC sells inferior products, are lying.
"Quality control MUST come from the manufacturer. It CANNOT be done by a distributor. "
This is not only a blatantly stupid and incorrect remark, you are now again saying that the people who say that they get higher quality products from SR than GC are in fact lying.
"Engineers or QC Inspectors that also frequent this forum can corroborate this view. "
I am an engineer. I have worked as a QC inspector. Your view on QC is wrong, QC can be done by the distributor. Sure, it's a stupid, inefficient and expensive way of doing it, but it can be done. So, you are, again, completely wrong.
Harvey Gerst
New member
For those of you that may have noticed that I removed Taylor Johnson's reply to the McKays, I feel an explanation is in order.
It appears that the McKays and Taylor Johnsonmay be on the way to a peaceful resolution of this situation and posting that message (which should have been private) would only fuel the fires needlessly at this point. I sincerely hope that they can work out an amicable solution which will enhance both their reputations and satisfy all parties.
Harvey Gerst
ITR Studio
www.ITRstudio.com
It appears that the McKays and Taylor Johnsonmay be on the way to a peaceful resolution of this situation and posting that message (which should have been private) would only fuel the fires needlessly at this point. I sincerely hope that they can work out an amicable solution which will enhance both their reputations and satisfy all parties.
Harvey Gerst
ITR Studio
www.ITRstudio.com
Regbro:
ADAM: My thumb hurts.
Rick : I am skeptical of that claim.
That does not mean that Adam is lying. It means he COULD be lying, and it means that Rick is holding open the possibility that it is either the truth or a lie, waiting further information or evidence.
Note that I have no reason to use implication or innuendo to criticize or insult someone. If I wanted to clearly state my opinion, I would simply do so, just as I will do now:
Regebro, you are a stupid son-of-a bitch who is just looking for trouble. Shove an OKTAVA MC012 straight up your asshole. You don't understand English, QC procedures, microphones, or common decency. Screw you !!
See...no need for innuendo or vague implication.
Piss on you !
(Buy that MC012 from the Sound Room, so you know you are getting a high-quality ass-reaming !)
Whew...that felt good !
Rick
ADAM: My thumb hurts.
Rick : I am skeptical of that claim.
That does not mean that Adam is lying. It means he COULD be lying, and it means that Rick is holding open the possibility that it is either the truth or a lie, waiting further information or evidence.
Note that I have no reason to use implication or innuendo to criticize or insult someone. If I wanted to clearly state my opinion, I would simply do so, just as I will do now:
Regebro, you are a stupid son-of-a bitch who is just looking for trouble. Shove an OKTAVA MC012 straight up your asshole. You don't understand English, QC procedures, microphones, or common decency. Screw you !!
See...no need for innuendo or vague implication.
Piss on you !
(Buy that MC012 from the Sound Room, so you know you are getting a high-quality ass-reaming !)
Whew...that felt good !
Rick
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