Advice needed for Vocal + Acoustic Instrument Mics

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timberp

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I’m new to this BBS today and just trying to get my head wrapped around home recording. I’d like to ask for some advice on my first microphone purchase. I’ll be recording folk music (voice + guitar, banjo, dulcimer, etc.) to my laptop with a USB interface (probably M-Audio Mobile Pre) with Adobe Audition software. I have a reasonably clear baritone vocal range.

I have about $400 set aside for mics, and I’d like to come up with a pair that I can use for a while. Right now I’m considering an AKG Project pack (C1000 S + C3000 B). Does this make sense? Is there another combination that would be better for the money? Rode NT-1A + ??? Studio Projects C1 + ??? This will be the only money that I will have available for microphones for a quite a while, so I’d like to make a good choice.

Thanks,

Tim
 
timberp said:
This will be the only money that I will have available for microphones for a quite a while, so I’d like to make a good choice.

Then avoid the AKG mics at all costs. They are almost universally panned around here. I know the c1000s personally, and it's not worth the money. Not even close. I'd buy it for $50 for use on toms, but that's about it.

Anyway, what's your budget? I'm guessing under $500? Do you need two mics? If not, I'd get a Shure KSM44 for both instruments and vocals, as it is a swiss army knife type of mic. It'll work pretty well on almost everything. If you need two or three mics, I'd get a couple Oktava MC012s for instruments (if you can find them used on Ebay) and a used ADK TC for vocals. You can find them used for between $300 and $400, and it's a phenomenal vocal mic, IMO. If you need a cheaper vocal mic, I'd go with the Audio-Technica 4040.
 
MXL has a package of a 603 and a 2001 that I would NOT get...however the combination of the 603 plus a V67G would be a good beginning combination for your voice plus leave enough money in your budget maybe upgrade the audio interface to the M-Audio Duo or Edirol UA-5 (which I use).
 
cominginsecond said:
I'd get a Shure KSM44 for both instruments and vocals, as it is a swiss army knife type of mic. It'll work pretty well on almost everything. If you need two or three mics, I'd get a couple Oktava MC012s for instruments (if you can find them used on Ebay) and a used ADK TC for vocals. You can find them used for between $300 and $400, and it's a phenomenal vocal mic, IMO. If you need a cheaper vocal mic, I'd go with the Audio-Technica 4040.


That's some really good advice.
 
timberp said:
I’m new to this BBS today and just trying to get my head wrapped around home recording. I’d like to ask for some advice on my first microphone purchase. I’ll be recording folk music (voice + guitar, banjo, dulcimer, etc.) to my laptop with a USB interface (probably M-Audio Mobile Pre) with Adobe Audition software. I have a reasonably clear baritone vocal range.

I have about $400 set aside for mics, and I’d like to come up with a pair that I can use for a while. Right now I’m considering an AKG Project pack (C1000 S + C3000 B). Does this make sense? Is there another combination that would be better for the money? Rode NT-1A + ??? Studio Projects C1 + ??? This will be the only money that I will have available for microphones for a quite a while, so I’d like to make a good choice.

Thanks,

Tim

Before you run out and get mics, perhaps you could provide some more information about how you plan on recording. Here are some questions:

1) Will you be recording whole ensembles in one take (e.g., two musicians playing and singing)?

2) What are the most channels you'll be recording at a time (probably 2 from what you said in your post)?

3) Will there be any instrumental solos or "breaks" within the vocal music you plan on recording?

The reason I'm asking these questions is that if you're intending to record all of the performance at once, and you want a decent stereo image, you may want to consider getting two of the same microphone, say a pair of CAD M179s or Shure KSM 27s. Or, if you're wanting to record in the round, a sigle omni mic could work well. On the other hand, if you're going to record each part separately, then a large diaphragm condenser and a small diaphragm condenser might be better, or maybe just one nicer mic.
 
Don't rule out dynamics. Through a decent pre, with lots of oomph, a good dynamic can match any budget condenser. For acoustic guitar I like to use the Beyer M201. For vocals I switch between the Beyer M99 and Sennheiser MD421.

Note: The SM57 is a MEDIOCRE dynamic. The best dynamics have "Made in Germany" stamped on them :D

Also: condensers are VERY sensitive. You might want to think about that.
 
I have never heard an acoustic track that I liked tracked with a dynamic. I guess I've never heard one done with a higher end dynamic, though. I should try my SM7 on acoustic maybe.
 
sdelsolray said:
Before you run out and get mics, perhaps you could provide some more information about how you plan on recording. Here are some questions:

1) Will you be recording whole ensembles in one take (e.g., two musicians playing and singing)?

2) What are the most channels you'll be recording at a time (probably 2 from what you said in your post)?

3) Will there be any instrumental solos or "breaks" within the vocal music you plan on recording?

The reason I'm asking these questions is that if you're intending to record all of the performance at once, and you want a decent stereo image, you may want to consider getting two of the same microphone, say a pair of CAD M179s or Shure KSM 27s. Or, if you're wanting to record in the round, a sigle omni mic could work well. On the other hand, if you're going to record each part separately, then a large diaphragm condenser and a small diaphragm condenser might be better, or maybe just one nicer mic.


Thanks for responding. To answer your questions:

1. Just me. I do want to record the vocal and instrumental tracks simultaneously.

2. Two channels in just about all cases..

3. A few short breaks, but nothing too fancy. I do some celtic/old-timey stuff, so there are some situations where I plan to try laying down multiple instrumental tracks.

I guess that I had envisioned positioning a large diaphragm for my voice and the small diaphragm near the instrument. Are you thinking that I might get better sound with two stereo mics positioned further away?

Much appreciated,

Tim
 
cominginsecond said:
I have never heard an acoustic track that I liked tracked with a dynamic. I guess I've never heard one done with a higher end dynamic, though. I should try my SM7 on acoustic maybe.

Well, I was looking at it from the point of view that, if Tim's anything like most newbies (that's not meant to be an insult, btw Tim) he'll be recording in a room with some acoustical problems and bad isolation; plus he'll have to deal with noise from his PC. All of which a condenser will pick up in exquisite detail.

It's that kind of thing that makes me think twice before buying a condenser.
 
timberp said:
I guess that I had envisioned positioning a large diaphragm for my voice and the small diaphragm near the instrument. Are you thinking that I might get better sound with two stereo mics positioned further away?

Much appreciated,

Tim

I don't know. What do you think? We're obviously talking about the soundstage. On the one hand, when you play live, the audience hears a blend of your instrument and voice with two identical "mics" (the ears). So, a pair of identical mics, setup in one of the many stereo configurations (e.g., X/Y, ORTF, NOS, etc.) would approximate that soundstage.

On the other hand, using two dedicated mics (which would likely be an LD and an SD) for voice and instrument, would allow those mics to pickup the source material individually (although there would be bleed through) and allow you to use certain techniques to perhaps enhance the recording. For example, vocals often sound "better" with a cardioid LD with judicious use of the proximity effect, whereas an acoustic instrument often sounds "better" with an SD with appropriate mic placement (e.g., at the 12th fret of a guitar). The net result is perhaps a good recording, but it does not sound authentic - it sounds recorded. Nothing wrong with this though.

Back to your orignal questions. I would suggest a pair of identical LDs. You could experiment with either placement technique discussed above. LDs are fine on acoustic instruments, particularly in a mix with only a few sources such as you're wanting to do. Your $400 budget is adequate for servicable mics. Again, I would recommend the CAD M179 (about $200 ea) or the Shure KSM 27 (about $225 ea). Later, you could add an SD for the overdubbing parts to add a little flavor variety.

Good luck.
 
I posted a similar post awhile ago (acoustic+vocals) still haven't bought anything, but I have been reading here for weeks, and there is A LOT of Info in old posts! If you search for something like, studio projects, tube, behringer...or something, there's good stuff (i think/hope?)
 
I don't find it to be a real big problem using condensers in less-than-ideal conditions, but I would be close miking to drown out extraneous noise and unflattering reflections.

Dynamics are great, but it really depends on the style of music. If you're screaming at the top of your lungs and thrashing on your flat top, you may want a couple of dynamics, but if your music is a little more subtle, condensers will bring out the detail, especially in the high end. Let us know what you end up buying and how you like it.
 
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Lance135 said:
I don't find it to be a real big problem using condensers in less-than-ideal conditions, but I would be close miking to drown out extraneous noise and unflattering reflections.

Dynamics are great, but it really depends on the style of music. If you're screaming at the top of your lungs and thrashing on your flat top, you may want a couple of dynamics, but if your music is a little more subtle, condensers will bring out the detail, especially in the high end. Let us know what you end up buying and how you like it.

Thanks. I'm learning a lot from all of this. I hoping that my music is on the more subtle end of the spectrum, so I'll probably opt for the condensers. Clearly I'll have to work on my recording environment once I get my computer/USB interface/mics set up.

BTW, after reading more, I guess I'm not surprised that folks are not raving about the AKG 3000 B, but I thought that there might be more positive feedback on the Rode NT-1A or the Studio Projects C1. For my budget ($400 all together for two mics) I thought that more folks would say good things about these.

Thanks again,

Tim
 
timberp said:
1. Just me. I do want to record the vocal and instrumental tracks simultaneously.

3. A few short breaks, but nothing too fancy. I do some celtic/old-timey stuff, so there are some situations where I plan to try laying down multiple instrumental tracks.

I'm going to offer a different view. First off a question--for the style, are you more like early (acoustic) Clannad, late-model Altan, or the usual guys at the pub on Friday night? 'Cause I think I'd take a different approach for each:

1) Clannad had a dark, organic sound in the '70s. I would seriously consider a single ribbon mic (trying to stay in budget), but you'd need to cut the guitar & vocal separately because I just can't see you satisfied with the vocal sound at a distance although if you like the guitar back quite a bit the single mic might work.

2) Altan would be the stereo SDC on guitar/LDC on vocal all the way.

3) guys at the pub would be a good dynamic. You wouldn't want too much detail on the guitars in that case.

4) For multitrack multiple instruments, it gets a little harder. Celtic fiddle I would go ribbon, bodhran you'd need a good dynamic, then there's flute, accordian, bouzouki . . . what else are we talking about?
 
I like a pair of at 3035, They are middle sized and very clean with a little high end bump. not as much as say a c1, but very nice. or........a pair of smalls and a c1 would work great c4 maybe or, if you can find 'em, mk012's
 
mshilarious said:
I'm going to offer a different view. First off a question--for the style, are you more like early (acoustic) Clannad, late-model Altan, or the usual guys at the pub on Friday night? 'Cause I think I'd take a different approach for each:

1) Clannad had a dark, organic sound in the '70s. I would seriously consider a single ribbon mic (trying to stay in budget), but you'd need to cut the guitar & vocal separately because I just can't see you satisfied with the vocal sound at a distance although if you like the guitar back quite a bit the single mic might work.

2) Altan would be the stereo SDC on guitar/LDC on vocal all the way.

3) guys at the pub would be a good dynamic. You wouldn't want too much detail on the guitars in that case.

4) For multitrack multiple instruments, it gets a little harder. Celtic fiddle I would go ribbon, bodhran you'd need a good dynamic, then there's flute, accordian, bouzouki . . . what else are we talking about?

You nailed it with #2. I think I will concentrate on recording that scenario first, and then maybe work on the multi-track issues (bodhran & tin whistle) after I have gotten my feet wet with the vocal/instrumental combinations.


Your help is appreciated,

Tim
 
timberp said:
(bodhran & tin whistle)

You could try the LDC on bodhran. I've had luck with an SDC with a windscreen close mic'ed on whistle.
 
Yo Timberp! Welcome to the board! As you have already no doubt figured out, you have asked one of the most frequently asked questions, and one of the hardest to answer, even if everybody didn't disagree, which they do. The first problem is that recording acoustic guitar and vocals simultaneously poses inherent difficulties. The needs of the 2 signals are quite different, and microphone bleed is guaranteed. Of course, it can be reduced, but never eliminated. Moreover, vox and acoustic call for different post production processing, which makes separation desireable.
Yeah, I understand that you feel you get a more natural performance if you do them simultaneously, but if you *can* learn to perform the 2 parts separately (and you can), you will produce better results, and tracks that are easier to process and mix. Aside from that, many of your best options are ruled out by your budget. So basically you're asking, "how do I do something that's basically wrong and make it sound good with very little money?" Well, it's basically easier to learn to track the components separately than it is to manufacture money out of thin air. That said, I will give you my 2 cents worth on what your options are.
First, acoustic guitar benefits greatly from the high end detail of a good condenser, or 2. It can be one large or one small diaphragm, 2 large or small diaphragms, or one of each. Any of those six systems can work just fine, if you have the right mics on the right guitar in the right place in the right room. Unfortunately, any of those systems can also suck, when they aren't the right mic in the right place at the right time.
Vocals can sound good when tracked with a condenser or a dynamic. Although large diaphragms are generally preferred, there are some small diaphragm mics that work just fine for vocals, especially ones in larger housings which *look* like LD mics but aren't, such as AT4033 or AKG C2000B.
Ribbons are a subcategory of dynamics, which can sound very good on acoustic or voice, but good ones are mostly out of your stated budget. Dynamics or ribbons have lower output than condensers, by and large, and benefit from kickass preamps with lots of clean gain, which is also not on your current gear list. Having higher output and therefore often being more sensitive, condensers pick up more ambient noise, and are more prone to bleed. That's the main reason you're getting so many answers- what you are asking for calls for so many compromises.
So with all of that as a foundation, here are my best suggestions- First, ribbons are mostly out. Good ones are rarely in your price range. There's one or two Beyerdynamics that would possibly make the cut (used), but you don't have the kickass preamp to bring it to life. Some pretty good dynamics are in your price range, but again, a serious preamp would wipe out your budget pretty fast. Therefore, I believe you'll get better results using condensers with the stated signal chain. For $400, you could go with one, two, or three mics. I think one mic could work, but getting good balance between guitar and voice would be a pain. Two mics is better, in my opinion, as it offers you more options, and you can choose a vocal mic and a guitar mic. Three is my personal choice, as you can get a pair of instrument mics, and try some stereo recording, and add a vocal mic to make the mix easier to balance, and it will be better for close micing the vocal. It also offers the option to try mixing and matching on solo guitar. or other instruments.
You also have to be aware that certain mics simply sound good or bad on certain voices, and certain guitars, and it is critical that the mics sound good on what *you* have, instead of another guy, so auditioning the mic before buying is very desireable, if possible. You also want to hear them through a mobilepre, if that's what you intend to use. If it were *my* voice, and *my* guitar, I would choose a matched pair of Marshall MXL 603's, and one AKG C2000B. Note that I am a big fan of the C2000B, and *not* the C3000B or the C1000S. Studio Projects C1 or B-3 are options, but I would choose a CAD M179 as the LD, most likely. The omni pattern might work as a single mic, if you find the right place to put it. Those are my best guesses. Best of luck.-Richie
 
Richie,

This is very helpful. Clearly, there are lots of valuable and diverse opinions on this subject, and I really value the responses that have been posted. Your entry and others make me think that the paired mics (probably MXL 603s pair for my budget) may be the option that I choose, along with the yet-to-be-decided-on vocal mic. Of course, this brings up new issues regarding placement of the two mics and how to get the signals from the paired mics into one side of the USB interface (I'm now leaning toward an Edirol UA-5). I guessing that I need a mixer for that. If anyone could direct me to some good reading on this subject, I would really appreciate it.

BTW, I thought the comment about learning to record separate tracks was also helpful. Once I get set up I'll work on that.

All the best,

Tim
 
timberp said:
Of course, this brings up new issues regarding placement of the two mics and how to get the signals from the paired mics into one side of the USB interface (I'm now leaning toward an Edirol UA-5).

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you want to send the signals from both mics to one track. If this is what you're saying, I wouldn't bother buying two mics. When you use two mics, typically you want to send them to two different tracks and do a little panning. Do a search here on stereo micing technique.
 
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