sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
+1 to that ^^^^
thinbrownline would know.
Boom. Done.
Good luck finding a good machine. Keep us posted.
thinbrownline would know.
Boom. Done.
Good luck finding a good machine. Keep us posted.
R
RRuskin
Rick Ruskin
I don't consider myself a "tape expert", but part of a community the, together, form a body of expertise. Others are much more knowledgeable about older tapes and their pitfalls and what to do about it. I sent a message to a listserv I'm part of that includes people who do archiving and transfers for a living. THEY are the tape experts. I'll see what comes back but you won't have answers today...like using analog tape compared to digital, you must have a certain degree of patience. I'll post as soon as I have any useful information.
[MENTION=66576]RRuskin[/MENTION] I hate to burst your bubble, but unfortunately we are starting to see even 206 exhibiting sticky shed issues.
They didn't use the same binder chemistry on 206 that they did on 226 or 250. If a reel of 206 doesn't want to be pulled properly, it's probably dried out Personally, I've yet to have any such problems with 206 but I have with Ampex/Quantegy 406.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Right, but people I know who do tape transfers professionally are starting to encounter sticky 206.
R
RRuskin
Rick Ruskin
I've yet to run into that problem but maybe I've just been lucky.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I don’t think it’s a profound issue, and it will also depend on the storage conditions during the life of the tape. So my understanding is maybe 206 is at minimal risk to go sticky, but it’s not impervious.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I would have thought, IF the tracks are of some value be it just nostalgic, you would be better off getting a quote from a professional who specializes in tape transfer work?
By the time you have found a decent OR machine, serviced it and lined it up you will have spent a good deal of time and money.
Dave.
By the time you have found a decent OR machine, serviced it and lined it up you will have spent a good deal of time and money.
Dave.
Mickster
Well-known member
Dave........you’re right......but the problem we have is there’s a bunch of tapes and they may be labeled wrong and not all of them have old band material on them. So.........we have to play them first.
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ecc83
Well-known member
Yes but if you play them and they should have been treated first? A 'pro' might be able to tell what is safe to play and what is not. I dare say it costs about the same to bake 'n' tapes as it does one?
Dave.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
The tapes shouldn’t need baking. They are not sticky-shed prone tapes.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Mickster
Well-known member
Yup....you're right again Dave.........but all of these tapes are Scotch 144 and so far the feedback is that the 144 tapes should be ok and would not need baking....and indeed would likely not fare well with baking. In other forums more used to tape questions......the 144 series seems to be favorable.....with the main issue being fragile plastic reels......the .5mil thickness.....any mold issues......and a properly working machine. We have about 20 tapes. They all "look" good and have been in their boxes.......but some are not labeled....some are......and it's impossible to figure out. I'll let you guys know how it goes..........and thanks to all of you who have helped out!!!
D
Duncan Hutchins
New member
whatever you do DON'T bake the tape until you have tried playing it normally and exhausted all the possibilities, preferably trying at least 2 machines known to have no serious transport issues such as 'iffy' rubber belts or deteriorated pinch roller. As I understand it, baked tape will give you one or two passes at best, and if that doesn't work you've lost everything. I've never baked tape, so seek other more knowledgable advice if you really have to go down that 'last resort' road. On one occasion, and in total desperation with tape that was literally shedding as it passed over the play head, I swabbed the head clean with isopropyl every few feet of running, rewinding a little for every new start to allow the machine to get back up to speed. That obviously then needed a huge amount of 'stitching back together' using digital editing software. A pretty crazy and risky thing to have done, I admit. Eventually I managed to recover a 'passable' recording (luckily it was mostly speech rather than music, (a family's memento of a wedding ceremony many, many years before), so 'speech quality only' was sufficient Perhaps that was the one occasion when baking would have been a better solution. Having 'rescued' a few R2R tapes from the early 1970s (if not before), in all but that one case they played perfectly or nearly so, and I transferred them to digital media. I even suspect that correctly stored R2R tape will outlast any current digital media. I came upon this graph (below) showing ideal tape storage conditions, but I think it's probably too strict and that tape will survive across a somewhat wider area than that. Good luck with your old band recordings, I know how gratifying it is to recover something that you obviously loved doing, part of your life story
C
CSP
Member
I can't recall the specs on the Scotch tape as I always used EMI tape, but can I suggest that before playing read up on baking a tape and any specs, reports, etc that you can find on the tape. I would also probably fast forward and rewind the tape before playing it and remember that 0.5mm tape is very thin and as stated above very easily stretch.
I am presuming that the tape is going to be a 7" spool rather than a 10" spool and if that is the case then it could be that it was recorded in 1/4 track format rather than 1/2 track format --- this would largely depend upon where it was recorded --- if a professional studio then I would say it is 1/2 track. Then again it could be full track mono.
Once ready to play, I would definitely ensure that all the tape guides, heads and pinch roller are absolutely clean and free of any dirt or muck.
I presume that you are going to record whatever is on the tape, so before playing be sure to have everything ready to undertake the recording, this would include playing another tape on the machine and using that tape to set levels etc. Once this is done repeat the cleaning process.
Now the important parts -- Check that there is nothing to indicate that the tape is stored "tail out" because this is the way all tape should have been stored to avoid print through (even more important with thin tape). Possibly play about 15 - 30 sec to see if the sound is backwards. If so fast forward the tape then play it for say 15 - 30 secs to be sure that it is playing correctly.
Once all is ready PLAY THE TAPE ONLY ONCE. But check for any obvious oxide shreading while it is being played and if any sign of this stop playing remove the tape spools (CAREFULLY) and again completely clean everything, then re install the spools and the tape and possibly manually rewind the tape about 3secs and then re commence the recording and playing the tape. Hopefully you will not need to do this and you can play it through in one go. If you do have to stop the tape for cleaning you will possibly loose a few seconds of music but at least you will have something to remember, or you might be able to patch sections together in your DAW to get the entire song/s.
Once completely played do NOT rewind the tape but simply lift it off the machine and store it .
Hopefully the tape's condition will allow for it to be fully played in one go.
I wish you all the best with your project and I can tell you that I have had to do this for clients quite a few times and it is both frustrating and exciting all at the same time.
David
I am presuming that the tape is going to be a 7" spool rather than a 10" spool and if that is the case then it could be that it was recorded in 1/4 track format rather than 1/2 track format --- this would largely depend upon where it was recorded --- if a professional studio then I would say it is 1/2 track. Then again it could be full track mono.
Once ready to play, I would definitely ensure that all the tape guides, heads and pinch roller are absolutely clean and free of any dirt or muck.
I presume that you are going to record whatever is on the tape, so before playing be sure to have everything ready to undertake the recording, this would include playing another tape on the machine and using that tape to set levels etc. Once this is done repeat the cleaning process.
Now the important parts -- Check that there is nothing to indicate that the tape is stored "tail out" because this is the way all tape should have been stored to avoid print through (even more important with thin tape). Possibly play about 15 - 30 sec to see if the sound is backwards. If so fast forward the tape then play it for say 15 - 30 secs to be sure that it is playing correctly.
Once all is ready PLAY THE TAPE ONLY ONCE. But check for any obvious oxide shreading while it is being played and if any sign of this stop playing remove the tape spools (CAREFULLY) and again completely clean everything, then re install the spools and the tape and possibly manually rewind the tape about 3secs and then re commence the recording and playing the tape. Hopefully you will not need to do this and you can play it through in one go. If you do have to stop the tape for cleaning you will possibly loose a few seconds of music but at least you will have something to remember, or you might be able to patch sections together in your DAW to get the entire song/s.
Once completely played do NOT rewind the tape but simply lift it off the machine and store it .
Hopefully the tape's condition will allow for it to be fully played in one go.
I wish you all the best with your project and I can tell you that I have had to do this for clients quite a few times and it is both frustrating and exciting all at the same time.
David
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I've baked quite a few tapes. Unless the tape was literally falling apart in its original condition...you will get much more than two passes out of it.
For milder SSS...once baked, the tape holds for quite awhile...just go real easy on that first pass after baking, because if the spool was kinda loose and irregular, when baked, you might see some edge sticking...so a gentle FW/RW is best, just to get the spooling in order.
Also...you can bake it more than once if you store it again and it starts to get sticky. I would certainly recommend bake-n-transfer. You can still keep the original tapes, but at least you have a transferred copy.
Of course....you need to bake it right. The best method is with a food dehydrator, at about 135 degrees. Some folks say a convection oven will work, since it circulates the are like a food dehydrator....but I never used a convection oven. I have a food dehydrator that was purchased specifically for tape baking, and I cut and set up the trays so they would fit my 2" reels, and of course, my smaller ones too. I bought a few extra trays.
Some of the tapes I baked 2-3 years ago...still don't show any returning SSS.
All that said...I don't think baking is the right choice for some older type of tapes...though I can't say which, if any. My baking has been mostly with more "modern" Ampex tape and a couple of others that were known to have SSS issues due to their binder types.
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R
RRuskin
Rick Ruskin
The only tapes that I would not bake are acetate based.
S
Sageylee
New member
I've got a few of these, as 'archives' of my work.
Before you load any tapes, make sure the heads, capstans and spindles are all working freely. The worst things that can happen there is that they jam and ruin what might have been a delicate but functioning reel.
After that, all you can do is carefully open the box and see if you can find the tail of the tape. If it comes away from the next layer of tape, you should be ok to load it. If it does load, and all the moving parts on your r-to-r are good, then you "should" be ok for at least one pass - so be sure to have your capture program setup and ready to go. It might be the only chance you have to grab whatever's on that reel.
So far, I've been lucky, and all the tapes I've tried have worked as expected after all this time - old cassettes as well. But I might just have hit a lucky moment there.
If the tape is sticking to itself, or has 'clear' sections, I'm afraid you're out of luck with that. There might be parts that you can salvage, but you'll have to be vigilant and constantly clean the heads so they don't get coated with rubbish.
Slowly and one at a time, and you might be surprised at how well they still work.
Good luck!
Before you load any tapes, make sure the heads, capstans and spindles are all working freely. The worst things that can happen there is that they jam and ruin what might have been a delicate but functioning reel.
After that, all you can do is carefully open the box and see if you can find the tail of the tape. If it comes away from the next layer of tape, you should be ok to load it. If it does load, and all the moving parts on your r-to-r are good, then you "should" be ok for at least one pass - so be sure to have your capture program setup and ready to go. It might be the only chance you have to grab whatever's on that reel.
So far, I've been lucky, and all the tapes I've tried have worked as expected after all this time - old cassettes as well. But I might just have hit a lucky moment there.
If the tape is sticking to itself, or has 'clear' sections, I'm afraid you're out of luck with that. There might be parts that you can salvage, but you'll have to be vigilant and constantly clean the heads so they don't get coated with rubbish.
Slowly and one at a time, and you might be surprised at how well they still work.
Good luck!
jamesperrett
Active member
According to Richard Hess they may show some signs of shedding - see about halfway down this document...
-Degrading Tapes – Richard L Hess—Audio Tape Restoration Tips & Notes
In my experience Scotch degrades at a slower rate than Ampex and most Scotch tapes are still playable with a little cleaning. The only Scotch tapes I've baked have been some reels of 966.
R
RRuskin
Rick Ruskin
Your experience is far different than mine. I had 3M/Scotch 226 go bad after just a few months of opening the seal when the stuff was new to the market. 250 was every bit as bad.
G
GeoffB17
New member
Sticky Shed is a very specific problem, caused when some manufacturers changed the formulation of the binder used to make the coating for the tape to something that was more environmentally friendly thru being water based (rather than oil based, which could have included whale oil ?). The problem is that over time the product takes water back in (if it at all can) and turns to sticky goo. Baking can put the tape back, but this is a temp fix ONLY. All tape made before the start date of this problem - and your tape is well too old to be affected by this specific problem, should be OK - other problems excepted.
As suggested, you could gently test the tape without putting it on any machine. Check that the layers of tape on the spool are not sticking together, check that the tape is still fully flexible, try scraping a bit near the start to make sure it's not shedding pieces (which can still happen even if not 'sticky). There is however an excellent chance that the tape will operate perfectly, and sound perfectly fine, depending on what you play it back on. I'm still using tapes I recorded in mid 70s, and they are fine.
If the recordings are possibly valuable, treat the tapes gently, and STOP at the first hint of any problem.
Geoff
As suggested, you could gently test the tape without putting it on any machine. Check that the layers of tape on the spool are not sticking together, check that the tape is still fully flexible, try scraping a bit near the start to make sure it's not shedding pieces (which can still happen even if not 'sticky). There is however an excellent chance that the tape will operate perfectly, and sound perfectly fine, depending on what you play it back on. I'm still using tapes I recorded in mid 70s, and they are fine.
If the recordings are possibly valuable, treat the tapes gently, and STOP at the first hint of any problem.
Geoff