2008 Martin D28 - horrible resonances

[keith.rogers]

Ok, this is interesting, but I still think it's likely strings/setup, maybe some technique, e.g., compensation learned playing on a very different instrument (playing .008s on electric) can really not work on something else, but that's a stretch.

I captured the 2 above, normalized and the only place something really sticks out (which is not quite what I hear) really suggests maybe bad setup/frets, too light strings? Who knows. The difference from the EQ'd one just shows a big difference in the area that is harmonics of open strings. Without hearing the single strings played hard, it's difficult to know what's going on exactly, but I'd be suspicious of just about anything without having the guitar in hand.

p.s. (edit) - the E is the E octave, the G is an octave above the 12th fret G, and the A is 2 octaves above the 12th fret A. (If I can do the arithmetic.)

p.p.s. (edit2) - stretching my google skills here, but this Am chord, with the open 4th of E and A is likely creating an implied 7th....

 

[CoolCat]

in microphone world the resonance might be called "nasal" or "honky". the point is do you spend more cash to make a expensive guitar sound good? as if it wasnt done right from the factory, seems to be part of the cost and expense and expected it to play and sound really good concept, perspective.

technique...is another thing. thats a good point.
I hammer chords and frets can buzz, but if Im gentle and light the fret buzz disappears....so setup I suppose can be technique related, which is why playing them before buying might help. so personal choice/ technique has a role , to buy a guitar already setup or pay some greenpaper to have it done...... and hope they do a good job, especially on an expensive guitar. recording can get funky in weird rooms or certain mics, mics can be moved a tiny bit and change shapes...

I never did , but seems a person could really go down deep into the rabbit hole on tweaking things to the "perfection".

 

[Slouching Raymond]

the point is do you spend more cash to make a expensive guitar sound good? as if it wasnt done right from the factory, seems to be part of the cost and expense and expected it to play and sound really good concept, perspective.

Makes me wonder if expensive guitars are all they're cracked up to be.
My acoustics range from £180 for an Epiphone, to £400 for a Takamine.
The Epiphone is pretty damn good.

 

[R D Smith]

Makes me wonder if expensive guitars are all they're cracked up to be.
My acoustics range from £180 for an Epiphone, to £400 for a Takamine.
The Epiphone is pretty damn good.

Me too. I got one of the super cheap (free) Rogue guitars Guitar Center was giving away when you bought a 12 pack of D'addario strings, and much to my surprise, it sounds really good! I have a couple of Guild D-25's and I really like the way they sound, but the Rogue was a pleasant surprise.

 

[spantini]

Me too. I got one of the super cheap (free) Rogue guitars Guitar Center was giving away when you bought a 12 pack of D'addario strings, and much to my surprise, it sounds really good! I have a couple of Guild D-25's and I really like the way they sound, but the Rogue was a pleasant surprise.

Ditto with my Rogue. All I did was tweak the neck some. Sounds very good, it has all the low end my Taylor Big Baby lacks.

 

[keith.rogers]

I think OP’s guitar has a setup or fret problem on looking over the graphs. The peaks that were EQd out are essentially the 12th, 15th and 17th fret notes of the first string. Now, the E and A might be natural overtones, as they show up in the earlier comparison against my old mahogany OM, but the G? It is actually in that first comparison (not on my guitar) but I overlooked it. The guitar’s own body resonance might be amplifying some overtones more than others, but I don’t see how a note that’s not being “played” (Am chord) is going to suddenly pop out at that high frequency when its lower octaves are not there.

I’ve seen weird things with guitars that had untrimmed string ends in coils, loose tuner buttons, other guitars hanging on the wall “humming along” but I suspect a high fret, and not the fact that it’s not a cheap guitar

 

[Mick Doobie]

I hear it plain as day from the first clip posted, or at least what I think you're hearing. An overtone, especially during the Am chord. If it was a note, for comparison, it would be the E note played 5th fret second string, then during the G chord , briefly the G note 3rd fret 1st string. At least that is what I'm hearing. Definitely one of those things once you hear it you can't unhear it.

Shot in the dark...why not?....Take a bandana, a handkerchief, loosely tie it around the headstock just above the nut. Just enough to muffle/dampen the strings above the nut. You never know.

 

[TalismanRich]

Mick, I've heard that before. I've got a DeArmond Starfire with a harp tailpiece. You definitely get some ringing of the strings from behind the bridge. I'm also wondering if it's possible to tap around on the top and back and find that exact tone. It could be that this particular guitar has got a hefty peak at that frequency just from the way the wood vibrates, just like a drum.

 

[dogooder]

I bought this guitar in 2009 or so. To get right to the point...it's full of ugly overtones regardless of the room I play it in. These ugly overtones manifest most brutally when I'm strumming chords around the first 3 frets. Like I'll play Am to G to C or something and there'll be this horrible 1khz (approx) overtone or sympathetic resonance or whatever you call it just underpinning everything played. If I strum some other chord there'll be ugly resonances at 700hz or 500hz, whatever. At first I thought it was my crap 8x9ft studio space. But anywhere in the house I still get these resonances. Or I thought it was the microphone capturing inaudible room boxiness or standing waves or something weird. But no. These resonances come right from the guitar itself. I can literally hear in an open position strummed Am chord...the E, A and C notes of that chord shape combining together to generate this ugly 1khz overtone. Totally unmusical, just rotten. Even if I pick those 3 notes together in the Am open shape...hello...here's that 1khz or unmusical overtone/ resonance.

It's already a nightmare to record acoustic guitar but with this supposed fantastic Martin D28...these resonances coming right from the soundhole absolutely sabotage any effort.

A lot of the songs I do all came about from simple strummed acoustic guitar. But recording simple strummed acoustic guitar has always sucked mightily. I'm almost 100% certain this is not a room thing or a microphone thing. This is coming right from the guitar itself.

I posted a thread here a while ago asking about simple, good sounding...and more importantly good recording acoustic guitars. So if anyone knows one, let me know. I'm probably going to go to the music shop when I get time and try out some mid sized Yamahas, Epiphones and stuff like that.

What do you reckon? I might add...I'm pretty certain there's no broken bracing or defects at all with the guitar. It's just a giant dreadnought tank probably supposed to have been played on a stage with all manner of trumpet, double bass, fiddles etc. So it was probably meant for bluegrass lines and licks or the kind of precision playing that nullifies resonance and overtone and which is beyond me.

thanks

I recently purchased Blueridges cheapest model, used, because the price was right, not because I wanted or needed it. It turns out the thing sounds great. I had never played one before. Now I am thinking I should go and check out their higher end models.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I bought this guitar in 2009 or so. To get right to the point...it's full of ugly overtones regardless of the room I play it in. These ugly overtones manifest most brutally when I'm strumming chords around the first 3 frets. Like I'll play Am to G to C or something and there'll be this horrible 1khz (approx) overtone or sympathetic resonance or whatever you call it just underpinning everything played. If I strum some other chord there'll be ugly resonances at 700hz or 500hz, whatever. At first I thought it was my crap 8x9ft studio space. But anywhere in the house I still get these resonances. Or I thought it was the microphone capturing inaudible room boxiness or standing waves or something weird. But no. These resonances come right from the guitar itself. I can literally hear in an open position strummed Am chord...the E, A and C notes of that chord shape combining together to generate this ugly 1khz overtone. Totally unmusical, just rotten. Even if I pick those 3 notes together in the Am open shape...hello...here's that 1khz or unmusical overtone/ resonance.

It's already a nightmare to record acoustic guitar but with this supposed fantastic Martin D28...these resonances coming right from the soundhole absolutely sabotage any effort.

A lot of the songs I do all came about from simple strummed acoustic guitar. But recording simple strummed acoustic guitar has always sucked mightily. I'm almost 100% certain this is not a room thing or a microphone thing. This is coming right from the guitar itself.

I posted a thread here a while ago asking about simple, good sounding...and more importantly good recording acoustic guitars. So if anyone knows one, let me know. I'm probably going to go to the music shop when I get time and try out some mid sized Yamahas, Epiphones and stuff like that.

What do you reckon? I might add...I'm pretty certain there's no broken bracing or defects at all with the guitar. It's just a giant dreadnought tank probably supposed to have been played on a stage with all manner of trumpet, double bass, fiddles etc. So it was probably meant for bluegrass lines and licks or the kind of precision playing that nullifies resonance and overtone and which is beyond me.

thanks

There are several variables that can cause this in a D-28. I was a Martin warranty center for years and have been restoring vintage Martins since 1978 and building guitars professionally since 1974.

It’s possible there is a loose brace that is creating a bad tone a a certain frequency. There could be a problem with the saddle and its arrangement with the bridge pins and the string ramps. Can you take a close up picture of the bridge showing the saddle height and the strings entering the bridge pin holes? Martin d-28’s notoriously have the low E side of the saddle butted up against the bridge pin, and they also sometime have a problem with the bottom of the bridge plate getting chewed up by the ball end which causes it to pull up into the top so much that the fat extra windings of the string is sitting on top of the saddle which causes a lot of weird tone and intonation problems. Many D-28’s have the neck set too flat which makes the action stiff and causes you to have a very low saddle which can also cause tone problems. I could inspect the guitar and tell you if any of these things are affecting your guitar.

I’d start by firmly tapping the top and back all around where the braces are and listen for any rattles or weird vibrations. And check the bridge and saddle for the things I mentioned.

 

[Monkey Allen]

There are several variables that can cause this in a D-28. I was a Martin warranty center for years and have been restoring vintage Martins since 1978 and building guitars professionally since 1974.

It’s possible there is a loose brace that is creating a bad tone a a certain frequency. There could be a problem with the saddle and its arrangement with the bridge pins and the string ramps. Can you take a close up picture of the bridge showing the saddle height and the strings entering the bridge pin holes? Martin d-28’s notoriously have the low E side of the saddle butted up against the bridge pin, and they also sometime have a problem with the bottom of the bridge plate getting chewed up by the ball end which causes it to pull up into the top so much that the fat extra windings of the string is sitting on top of the saddle which causes a lot of weird tone and intonation problems. Many D-28’s have the neck set too flat which makes the action stiff and causes you to have a very low saddle which can also cause tone problems. I could inspect the guitar and tell you if any of these things are affecting your guitar.

I’d start by firmly tapping the top and back all around where the braces are and listen for any rattles or weird vibrations. And check the bridge and saddle for the things I mentioned.

Hey Scott, a great bonus to hear from someone with so much first hand experience on these kinds of guitars! Thanks for your comments and advice. I've tapped on the top etc but haven't been able to detect anything off. To be honest, since I started the thread here I've just made sure not to include lengthy passages in recordings where Am is the chord. Lame I know and not a solution but that's what I've done. I've actually made some, to me, nice recordings with this D28 since I started the thread. I just cant strum Am for like 8 bars or something. Having said that...there's a couple of things a) even when I started the thread the strings on this D28 were already well used. I mistakenly thought I had only just put a fresh set on. That's wrong. They were already somewhat old...and b) all the other suggestions in your post I'll be looking into.

I'm attaching a song I just finished that has the Am chord in it but never played for more than a couple of bars at any time. 2x acoustic tracks L and R with no eq on them. The song isn't fully mixed. The D28 has the same strings on as when I started the thread. I think it recorded pretty ok and works in the song etc. When I started the thread I think I was trying to do some song where the Am chord played for ages...and the more you strum on that Am the more the weird sound thing manifests. So it was frustrating all attempts to record it.

Thanks

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Hey Scott, a great bonus to hear from someone with so much first hand experience on these kinds of guitars! Thanks for your comments and advice. I've tapped on the top etc but haven't been able to detect anything off. To be honest, since I started the thread here I've just made sure not to include lengthy passages in recordings where Am is the chord. Lame I know and not a solution but that's what I've done. I've actually made some, to me, nice recordings with this D28 since I started the thread. I just cant strum Am for like 8 bars or something. Having said that...there's a couple of things a) even when I started the thread the strings on this D28 were already well used. I mistakenly thought I had only just put a fresh set on. That's wrong. They were already somewhat old...and b) all the other suggestions in your post I'll be looking into.

I'm attaching a song I just finished that has the Am chord in it but never played for more than a couple of bars at any time. 2x acoustic tracks L and R with no eq on them. The song isn't fully mixed. The D28 has the same strings on as when I started the thread. I think it recorded pretty ok and works in the song etc. When I started the thread I think I was trying to do some song where the Am chord played for ages...and the more you strum on that Am the more the weird sound thing manifests. So it was frustrating all attempts to record it.

Thanks

That track sounds great! I can’t hear any issues with the martin either.

 

[R D Smith]

Hey Scott, a great bonus to hear from someone with so much first hand experience on these kinds of guitars! Thanks for your comments and advice. I've tapped on the top etc but haven't been able to detect anything off. To be honest, since I started the thread here I've just made sure not to include lengthy passages in recordings where Am is the chord. Lame I know and not a solution but that's what I've done. I've actually made some, to me, nice recordings with this D28 since I started the thread. I just cant strum Am for like 8 bars or something. Having said that...there's a couple of things a) even when I started the thread the strings on this D28 were already well used. I mistakenly thought I had only just put a fresh set on. That's wrong. They were already somewhat old...and b) all the other suggestions in your post I'll be looking into.

I'm attaching a song I just finished that has the Am chord in it but never played for more than a couple of bars at any time. 2x acoustic tracks L and R with no eq on them. The song isn't fully mixed. The D28 has the same strings on as when I started the thread. I think it recorded pretty ok and works in the song etc. When I started the thread I think I was trying to do some song where the Am chord played for ages...and the more you strum on that Am the more the weird sound thing manifests. So it was frustrating all attempts to record it.

Thanks

I like the song. The martin sounds fine in the mix.

 

[jimistone]

Thanks everyone. No, not saying it's only bad when recording. I'm saying the resonance/ overtone is clearly coming directly from the guitar. That's how the guitar sounds all the time. Strings are quite new...reasonably new. Not an issue. 12 gauge strings. I say "horrible resonance"...this might conjure in the mind something truly abominable. If I asked my brother to come and listen to me strum, he probably wouldn't hear it. Or it would take him a while to hear it. So it's not this rampaging, thundering, ear splitting resonance. But it is something bad enough that I can hear it clearly and it gets accurately and faithfully recorded. The Am chord resonance is actually around 800hz. I mentioned 1khz earlier. It's more like 800hz or so. But whatever.

I can post clips soon enough.

Not trying to be a smartass, but why did you buy it if you don't like the tone coming from it?

 

[Monkey Allen]

Not trying to be a smartass, but why did you buy it if you don't like the tone coming from it?

I bought it 16 years ago brand new and as you could imagine a) I was a lot stupider when I was younger and b) it was a different guitar then...16 years have passed...things change...such as the sound of a guitar. They can mellow, change a bit, whatever.

Besides, at the end of the day, I really like the tone of the guitar and its great to play. In that one song I was trying to do I felt there was something off about the Am open position chord when strummed for a while. So I came here. But it's alright. Still a great guitar.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Lots of things can cause sound issues like you are describing. There could be a loose brace or loose seam that is nearly impossible to see that can cause a weird sound at a specific frequency or weird overtone. I start by tapping firmly in various areas on the top or back to listen for an undesirable vibration or rattle. This helps to figure out why. One time I had a Martin that had a weird rattle that I could not find for the life of me. Turned out the top was loose from the sides around part of the lower bout, but the binding was secure and had not moved, but the top was not tightly coupled to the lining. After I glued the seam it was better than new.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

After I glued the seam it was better than new.

What glue did you use?

 

[Monkey Allen]

Lots of things can cause sound issues like you are describing. There could be a loose brace or loose seam that is nearly impossible to see that can cause a weird sound at a specific frequency or weird overtone. I start by tapping firmly in various areas on the top or back to listen for an undesirable vibration or rattle. This helps to figure out why. One time I had a Martin that had a weird rattle that I could not find for the life of me. Turned out the top was loose from the sides around part of the lower bout, but the binding was secure and had not moved, but the top was not tightly coupled to the lining. After I glued the seam it was better than new.

I have had to re-glue the binding on the waist area of this D28. That was a couple of years ago.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I have had to re-glue the binding on the waist area of this D28. That was a couple of years ago.

Around the late 80’s early 90’s Martin switched from Celluloid binding to PVC binding. The PVC binding tends to come loose usually around the waist, but sometimes all the way off. That is one of the myriad of design changes made over the years to ‘improve production’ that actually diminished the quality a little. I’ve had to reglue that binding on 90’s and newer Martins a thousand times. 70’s and older Martins don’t really have this problem.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

What glue did you use?

Original Titebond