12 Strings

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TelePaul

TelePaul

J to the R O C
Toying with the idea of purchasing a 12 string. But I don't know where to start looking or even learning about them. I read somewhere that alot of players will tune down a whole tone to D as to preserve the lifespan of the neck. Does this not mean a standard tuned 12 string is prone to gross amounts of neck-curve and that they play with a relatively high action?
 
I'm assuming we are talking about acoustics here.

In general, our advice at the shop is that if you are using lights, you can tune to standard pitch, but if you want to use mediums you should tune down 1/2 step. A lot of guys like to tune down because, at pitch, 12 strings can sound awfully jangly, which can be a bit much. Feel free to experiment, but unless you get a Bozo, don't tune it up to pitch with mediums. If you get a Bozo, you can use heavies at pitch - he likes to build them kind of like a heavy tank, and they can stand up to just about anything; you'll need a to use a sledgehammer as a pick to make them sound good, but once you do it will sound amazing! (I should make clear here, I like Bozos - I just can't play hard enough to make them sound good! Oh, and his tastes in inlay are, well, over the top.)

As for production 12-strings, look into old `70's Guilds, or the Taylor Leo Kottke model 12 (older ones are better than the new ones - if you can find one before they started using the NT neck joint, that's the one to get). That is, by the way, the only Taylor I actually like, but it is a very nice 12 string; just be aware that it is designed to be tuned down a lot (Leo is tuning down two steps to a C these days).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
sweetness

I've got the most excellent '67 Ricky 12 string. Stays in tune, the neck doesn't bow and if you play it for 10 minutes straight all the callouses peal off your fingers. It's for the Byrds.
 
Light said:
I'm assuming we are talking about acoustics here.

In general, our advice at the shop is that if you are using lights, you can tune to standard pitch, but if you want to use mediums you should tune down 1/2 step. A lot of guys like to tune down because, at pitch, 12 strings can sound awfully jangly, which can be a bit much. Feel free to experiment, but unless you get a Bozo, don't tune it up to pitch with mediums. If you get a Bozo, you can use heavies at pitch - he likes to build them kind of like a heavy tank, and they can stand up to just about anything; you'll need a to use a sledgehammer as a pick to make them sound good, but once you do it will sound amazing! (I should make clear here, I like Bozos - I just can't play hard enough to make them sound good! Oh, and his tastes in inlay are, well, over the top.)

As for production 12-strings, look into old `70's Guilds, or the Taylor Leo Kottke model 12 (older ones are better than the new ones - if you can find one before they started using the NT neck joint, that's the one to get). That is, by the way, the only Taylor I actually like, but it is a very nice 12 string; just be aware that it is designed to be tuned down a lot (Leo is tuning down two steps to a C these days).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

Good tip on the neck joint on the Taylor. I like the way they play, I'm just not wild about the way they sound. Do the older Leo Kottke Taylors sound better than the current ones? I'm actually surprised by the new Guilds. They are more playable (at least for me) than the 70s Guilds. Don't sound quite as good, but that may be the compromise. And who knows, maybe after another 30 years of playing they'll sound better.:D
 
pohaku said:
Good tip on the neck joint on the Taylor. I like the way they play, I'm just not wild about the way they sound. Do the older Leo Kottke Taylors sound better than the current ones?
Click to expand...

I think so, but more to the point, HE thinks so. Just don't ask him in an interview. I think they play better, too.


pohaku said:
And who knows, maybe after another 30 years of playing they'll sound better.:D
Click to expand...



Well, yeah.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
dogonjon said:
I've got the most excellent '67 Ricky 12 string. Stays in tune, the neck doesn't bow and if you play it for 10 minutes straight all the callouses peal off your fingers. It's for the Byrds.
Click to expand...



Really and truely, you shouldn't be going and giving Muttley an me nightmares like that.

The only thing worse than a six string Rick is a 12 string Rick. Yeah yeah, they're cool and all, but they are a giant pain in the ass to work on.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
The worst 12 strings out there IMHO are Ovation. I owned one that literally bowed the neck into a C shape on me. And it wasn't even tuned at the time. The strings were all slacked for shipping. But the humidity and the temp changes got to it.

Wasted $1200, and I had to really screw with my acoustic amp settings to get it to sound decent. Too muted because of the F holes instead of a standard sound hole. And don't even get me started about the pickups...
 
TelePaul said:
Toying with the idea of purchasing a 12 string. But I don't know where to start looking or even learning about them. I read somewhere that alot of players will tune down a whole tone to D as to preserve the lifespan of the neck. Does this not mean a standard tuned 12 string is prone to gross amounts of neck-curve and that they play with a relatively high action?
Click to expand...


A lot depends on your budget, you could consider a Maton http://www.maton.com.au/ there are UK dealers listed on their website. I happen to own a '69 Maton 12 string that I'd never sell.

:cool:
 
Maton 6 strings sound as good, or better to me than a good Martin, and I love Martins. I can only imagine how good one of their 12-strings sound.

When I bought mine, I just tried all of them in the shop. One of the least expensive ones ended up sounding the best to me. I tried the Seagull's, Godins', Art & Luthrie, Taylor, etc. and had the budget to buy one but the Washburn sounded best to me...to each his own though.

Mine seems to have no problem in standard tuning, but I think it came with lights on there. I'm glad I checked out this thread, because I plan on getting mediums and will put it in D tuning...I'm not looking forward to putting the strings on there though. :)
 
Interesting stuff guys. Yeah Light, I was talking about acoustics, sorry, I should have said. I personally hate the way Taylors sound - much too sweet for me, and I'm wondering would a 12-string Taylor be, like, uber-sweet?
 
IMHO

The best deal on the market is a '70s Guild X212. $450 - $700 on e-bay. Built like a tank (this is not a complement). Solid Honduras mahogany. Very good projection and tone. Keeps it's value.

I used to have a Taylor from the late '80s or early '90s that was a great guitar, but the newer ones don't do anything for me. The early Leos were terrific.

I have always tuned to standard pitch and wouldn't want a 12 you couldn't tune that way.
 
TelePaul said:
I personally hate the way Taylors sound - much too sweet for me, and I'm wondering would a 12-string Taylor be, like, uber-sweet?
Click to expand...


I agree wholeheartedly. The Leo 12 is different. WAY different. Probably because it is tuned down so far.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Rokket said:
The worst 12 strings out there IMHO are Ovation. I owned one that literally bowed the neck into a C shape on me. And it wasn't even tuned at the time. The strings were all slacked for shipping. But the humidity and the temp changes got to it.

Wasted $1200, and I had to really screw with my acoustic amp settings to get it to sound decent. Too muted because of the F holes instead of a standard sound hole. And don't even get me started about the pickups...
Click to expand...

Funny thing about Ovations, I like the way they sound but I hate them because of that rounded back ... their 12 strings are hard to play for that reason. ( I also think the price you pay for a piece of molded plastic is ridiculous ... but that is another story. )
I like and have always liked the Martin 12 strings. They sound really sweet.
My main 12 string is an old Gibson ES-335 but I do so love the SG double neck that John McLaughlin used to play.
 
Henry Mars said:
I like and have always liked the Martin 12 strings. They sound really sweet.
Click to expand...


The good ones can be great. Too bad they made so few good ones. Most Martin 12's suck. I love their sixes (for the most part), but they just can't figure out how to make a consistently good 12.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Well I wouldn't say most of them suck, but you are quite right about consistency. That has been a problem with most Martins for the last 40 years unless you are prepared to plunk down 4 grand.
Most drummers that I know try out many symbols of the same type before they buy it. I worked with a drummer that went to the factory to get what he wanted. Handmade guitars are no different you got to try a "few" to get what you want. Take Taylor for instance .... I really don't like them for the most part but have played a few that sounded so good I would have bought on the spot if I had the cash.
I guess the point is try a few before dismissing any of them out of hand.
 
Don't wanna go off-topic but figured I'd ask this here...

What kind of strings do you guys use for your 12 strings?

I use D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Mediums on my 6-string and right now, I'm not even sure what options are out there for 12-string guitars (about the same? a lot less?).

I'm gonna get some mediums put on there and keep it tuned down a whole step.
 
I bought a Seagull S12 last year, had it properly set up, and it plays beautifully and sounds great. IMO, if you don't want to spend a fortune, the S12 is definitely a viable option. I chose it over a couple of Taylors at 5 times the price, and a Martin. I knew I had to have it after I played it in the shop for over an hour.

Just my 2 centivos...
 
dogonjon said:
I've got the most excellent '67 Ricky 12 string. Stays in tune, the neck doesn't bow and if you play it for 10 minutes straight all the callouses peal off your fingers. It's for the Byrds.
Click to expand...

If you're doing crazy stuff like that, you need a Hagstrom!
 
Yamaha 12

Yahmaha makes a decent 12 string for not much dough...they sound great and mine is in standard tuning in its case right now and had been for the last two yrs with no neck'age.
 
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