Panning identical mono tracks

[geoff957]

I know that panning identical tracks 100% L & R isn't a good idea due to phasing issues.
If I delay one channel by 10 ms or so and pan both to 80 or 90% would that work ok?
In this case it's a heavy guitar track.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hi geoff,
If the tracks are identical then panning L+R won't result in any phase issues - It'll just be the same as panning both dead centre.

Delaying one of the copies by milliseconds is where you come into consistent phase issues.
If the two are panned centre (or heard on a mono setup) you'll have strong cancellation going on, always at the same frequencies,
and if they're panned apart you get a strange pseudo-stereo effect.

If that's an effect you're going for then that's the way to do it, as long as you're aware of the mono compatibility
however, if you're wanting double-tracks of guitar for depth and strength then actually recording the part twice is the way to go.

That results in your width and strength but also collapses to mono without major issues.

Often people adjust some variables between the two recordings to create more difference - Maybe the pickup choice, mic position, amp/cab choice...That kind of thing.

 

[mjbphotos]

I haven't experimented, but if one duplicates a track, pans them hard L + R, then puts separate reverb on each one (but the same reverb) - will the tracks still be the same? I ask because of an argument with someone doing this with a Tascam stand-alone recorder.

 

[Farview]

That would be the same as putting the reverb on a mono track panned center.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Yeah, assuming the reverb doesn't have any kind of randomisation in its algorithms and the simulated environment is symmetrical, it should be the same thing.

 

[geoff957]

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
So, if I were to pan the two identical tracks say L60 & R60 with no delay, would that work without issues and give a better spread of the sound?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
So, if I were to pan the two identical tracks say L60 & R60 with no delay, would that work without issues and give a better spread of the sound?

It will work without issues but it will give no spread at all.
You'll hear the same thing out of both speakers which is exactly what happens with a centred single mono track.

 

[geoff957]

It will work without issues but it will give no spread at all.
You'll hear the same thing out of both speakers which is exactly what happens with a centred single mono track.

I see. So what's the best way to treat a mono track to create more spread?

 

[Steenamaroo]

There's a lot of things you can do but if mono playback is likely I'd avoid the copy/paste/pan/nudge thing.

You can use a stereo delay, reverb, or chorus, or any combination but for big sounding rhythm guitars there's really no substitute for recording the part multiple times.
The inconsistencies and differences in the two performances mean you can do this and pan them apart and not get consistent phase/cancellation issues.

 

[geoff957]

There's a lot of things you can do but if mono playback is likely I'd avoid the copy/paste/pan/nudge thing.

You can use a stereo delay, reverb, or chorus, or any combination but for big sounding rhythm guitars there's really no substitute for recording the part multiple times.
The inconsistencies and differences in the two performances mean you can do this and pan them apart and not get consistent phase/cancellation issues.

Thanks again. That's very clear.

 

[miroslav]

I see. So what's the best way to treat a mono track to create more spread?

You can try something like this:

Brainworx bx_stereomaker - Plugin Alliance

They give a 2-week free fully activated demo...so you can use it and see if you like it. Then wait for the sales...they just had a bunch, but November is their best time.
I think I paid like $25 for it way back...or now they have a subscription service with all kinds of bundles if you're into the "rent to use" thing.

Anyway...I use their Stereomaker quit a bit on mono tracks...works great and it leaves your tracks mono-compatible if that is needed.

 

[sasquatch]

I know that panning identical tracks 100% L & R isn't a good idea due to phasing issues.
If I delay one channel by 10 ms or so and pan both to 80 or 90% would that work ok?
In this case it's a heavy guitar track.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

You're describing the Haas Effect aka precedence effect which creates spaciousness, depth.
The Google will tell you more...

g

 

[spantini]

You can try something like this:

Brainworx bx_stereomaker - Plugin Alliance

That's nice! Thanks for the post

 

[geoff957]

You can try something like this:

Brainworx bx_stereomaker - Plugin Alliance

They give a 2-week free fully activated demo...so you can use it and see if you like it. Then wait for the sales...they just had a bunch, but November is their best time.
I think I paid like $25 for it way back...or now they have a subscription service with all kinds of bundles if you're into the "rent to use" thing.

Anyway...I use their Stereomaker quit a bit on mono tracks...works great and it leaves your tracks mono-compatible if that is needed.

Thanks I'll give it a try.

 

[geoff957]

You're describing the Haas Effect aka precedence effect which creates spaciousness, depth.
The Google will tell you more...

g

Thank you I'll check that out.

 

[geoff957]

You can try something like this:

Brainworx bx_stereomaker - Plugin Alliance

They give a 2-week free fully activated demo...so you can use it and see if you like it. Then wait for the sales...they just had a bunch, but November is their best time.
I think I paid like $25 for it way back...or now they have a subscription service with all kinds of bundles if you're into the "rent to use" thing.

Anyway...I use their Stereomaker quit a bit on mono tracks...works great and it leaves your tracks mono-compatible if that is needed.

Just had a look but unfortunately I'm running an antique setup (XP & Cubase 4) which won't accomodate the plugin by the look of it.

 

[miroslav]

Just had a look but unfortunately I'm running an antique setup (XP & Cubase 4) which won't accomodate the plugin by the look of it.

Well...you may find that not much will run on XP anymore, unless you dig back to some older plugins...but anything made in the last few years may not work.

Time to step up.

 

[geoff957]

As I often tell myself.

 

[hautbois16]

Just Curious: What is your purpose in panning two identical tracks? In this regard, I am somewhat of a "newby" frame of mind in that I haven't done exactly that; but I have encountered a few phasing issues in the old days of my multitrack recordings and bouncing tracks between two tape decks. Are you trying to create that "moving" or "whirling" effect found on some recordings around the "psychedelic era" somewhat similar to the odd phasing that happens in part of the song "The Letter" as performed by the Arbors. I'm sure that there are some other songs that utilize that effect, which among other things, causes cancellation of various portions of the audio spectrum as the two signals move into and out of phase. The effect is WEIRD if you hear it on a good pair of headphones.
that

 

[geoff957]

Just Curious: What is your purpose in panning two identical tracks? In this regard, I am somewhat of a "newby" frame of mind in that I haven't done exactly that; but I have encountered a few phasing issues in the old days of my multitrack recordings and bouncing tracks between two tape decks. Are you trying to create that "moving" or "whirling" effect found on some recordings around the "psychedelic era" somewhat similar to the odd phasing that happens in part of the song "The Letter" as performed by the Arbors. I'm sure that there are some other songs that utilize that effect, which among other things, causes cancellation of various portions of the audio spectrum as the two signals move into and out of phase. The effect is WEIRD if you hear it on a good pair of headphones.
that

No not really. It's just that I record pretty much everything in mono and I've tried hard panning to see if it gives more spread. Initially I thought it did but following the advice above I suspect my ears are lying again.
I record pretty much everything in mono as I've always understood stereo to require 2 different bits of information. When people talk about recording a mono guitar signal in stereo I just don't get it.