My Corona

[DM60]

Just some footnotes / facts on THE MASK

Firstly we all wear mask metaphorically speaking

Not all N95 mask have exhalation valves as Coolcat noted

N95 mask are rated as such because they fit so damn tight on you're face that they reduce 95% of particulates coming in and out.
The N95 mask with the exhalation valve are designed to ease exhalation and decrease humidity, heat and moisture inside the mask.

Ones with the valve still reduce 95% of all particulates coming in...(Good for the person wearing it) but do allow a certain percentage of particulates out ( not good for everybody around someone infected wearing this type of mask) so bottom line the ones with vents are not the best choice for preventing the infected person with spreading the virus.

Since many people infected don't know they have the virus..N95 vents really are not a good choice of masking in this situation period. but they do keep the user safe and probably reduce a little of that person's exhalation droplets.

That said wearing mask of any sort including even a bandanna is the responsible prudent thing to do in these virulent times for your's and others safety. By doing so you are both reducing your droplets from the air you exhale and the ones floating around from others ewwwwww! expotentially reducing the spread of Covid-19..

As Dr. Ruth would have said if she were still alive.... wear a mask, wash your hands and have good life!


Mask 101 John Hopkins


A pretty honest article discussing mask 101 as of today

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YouTube

 

[grimtraveller]

I bet if the experts said that if you stood out in the rain naked, it would help wash off the virus...people would do it without question

Like president Trump ?

Naturally, in a situation like this, there'll be a certain amount of fear and panic. People panic when there's a storm on the horizon or if there are rumours of fuel shortages !
But I come back to the point that we are in a situation that we've not really faced before. And in a conglomerate of small countries like the UK where there is nothing that wipes out 28,000 people in just over 6 weeks, it would be irresponsible to just sit back and do nothing and take the view that well, this is nature, we exist alongside all kinds of things that kill us etc.
A question I would ask is this ¬> if any one of us were really in a position of responsibility for the wellbeing of an entire nation {and whatever one may think of specific govts or govt in general, they'll be held accountable for their moves at the end of the day}, what would we do in a situation where people were dying of a virus by the hundreds, rolling into the thousands ? Granted, lockdowns and social distancing may seem at times like a crock, but the reality is that thus far, there is a significant number of people that do not know where they picked up the virus and people in whom symptoms haven't been presented yet so it's not really daft to say that we do not know where it could be picked up. It may be thought stupid that one could pick it up from anyone, but in reality, how does anyone know who you may or may not pick it up from ? A lockdown is just one of those little things that gets thrown into the equation. It won't last forever and we are, as humans, resilient enough to bounce back in some way but all the little things we do just may help in the meantime. In the absence of firm knowledge, it's a chance worth taking. The fear mongers and panickers would do so whichever way the govts went.

The damage inflicted by governments is all ready far greater and more destructive than what the disease could do.

No offence, but that's really your bias coming through. You very much give the impression that regardless of what "the govt" does, you'd be ready to hammer them.
Perhaps you know people that have died of this virus, I don't know. My wife and I know 3 people thus far. I think I'd rather they had a bit of government damage inflicted on them......

 

[miroslav]

Like president Trump ?

Naturally, in a situation like this, there'll be a certain amount of fear and panic. People panic when there's a storm on the horizon or if there are rumours of fuel shortages !
But I come back to the point that we are in a situation that we've not really faced before. And in a conglomerate of small countries like the UK where there is nothing that wipes out 28,000 people in just over 6 weeks, it would be irresponsible to just sit back and do nothing and take the view that well, this is nature, we exist alongside all kinds of things that kill us etc.
A question I would ask is this ¬> if any one of us were really in a position of responsibility for the wellbeing of an entire nation {and whatever one may think of specific govts or govt in general, they'll be held accountable for their moves at the end of the day}, what would we do in a situation where people were dying of a virus by the hundreds, rolling into the thousands ? Granted, lockdowns and social distancing may seem at times like a crock, but the reality is that thus far, there is a significant number of people that do not know where they picked up the virus and people in whom symptoms haven't been presented yet so it's not really daft to say that we do not know where it could be picked up. It may be thought stupid that one could pick it up from anyone, but in reality, how does anyone know who you may or may not pick it up from ? A lockdown is just one of those little things that gets thrown into the equation. It won't last forever and we are, as humans, resilient enough to bounce back in some way but all the little things we do just may help in the meantime. In the absence of firm knowledge, it's a chance worth taking. The fear mongers and panickers would do so whichever way the govts went.

Oh please...Trump hasn't told the people to do anything. He rambles about stuff the experts tell him, but there has been so much misinformation and back-n-forth by "experts"...that to blame Trump for the virus or the way these shutdowns have been playing out...is pure bias.
At least he's trying to take an optimistic view...to get things back to some normalcy...to get the economy going again...instead of the daily doom-n-gloom being pushed by so many in the opposition.

All the "rules" are generated at state level by governors for these shutdowns here in the US...and one can't deny that the coalition of governors who pushed for the shutdowns and who imposed population control measures, and now want to continue with extended shutdowns...are primarily Democrat governors.
Is that a coincidence...or politically motivated decisions?

And yes, this has happened before, in a bigger way...Spanish Flu.
And NO all the lockdowns are not a "little thing" unless you're going to buy into whatever the government sells...all in the name of safety, and driven by fear and panic.

YES...this IS nature. No different than what's been happening for millions of years. The virus us no different than what wolves do in the forests.
We almost wiped them out here in the USA...then realized that they filled a key role.
If we naturally adapt to the virus, we have a better chance of living with it instead of hiding from it. Too many people think that we can wait this out until they develop a vaccine...and then we are all saved. Well...look at the data...has science even once managed to develop a vaccine for any of the other coronaviruses?
Maybe they will for this, because there's such a big demand...but next year, when get hit with COVID-20...are we going to bunker in again for a few months?

I mean...do you think that's the way we should live from now on...and how much longer do you think we can do that before we see a major collapse of our economies and lifestyles. Do people who are screaming about keeping people locked in...have any idea that it's not a viable option to stay locked in much longer?
Would you be willing to accept martial law...troopers forcing you to stay indoors...not allowing you to buy anything they don't deem essential...forcing you to undergo medical examinations...forcing you to be injected with whatever "solution" some pharma comes up with...deciding how you should live day to day?
Is that really better than naturally adjusting to the virus with some basic caution and common sense, but going on with our lives...???

 

[RFR]

No offence, but that's really your bias coming through. You very much give the impression that regardless of what "the govt" does, you'd be ready to hammer them.
Perhaps you know people that have died of this virus, I don't know. My wife and I know 3 people thus far. I think I'd rather they had a bit of government damage inflicted on them......

No offense but your bias is clearly showing through.
We all have biases.

As to mine, well the government has shown time again that it lies and takes actions that are not in the best interests of it’s people. Their actions are in the best interests of the donor class they serve.

In Los Angeles alone 60% of the population is now unemployed. Sure, they got a 12000 dollar stimulus check ( if they had direct deposit.... some may wait till july or aug for a paper check) But 1200 wont even pay for a studio apt in a neighborhood where it’s safe to live.
Their jobs may not even be there when the government allows the economy to re open.
Foreclosures and evictions will run rampant and lives will be destroyed.

So, Yes, bias or not, the cure is worse than the disease. Government is destroying lives and the economy. I’m talking about the real people economy.

 

[miroslav]

From what I've seen, there are two "virus" camps and each has their supporters.

One camp is made up of those who favor prolonged, enforced shutdowns, and who are apparently waiting on a vaccine before they feel safe to go out.
That one is made up of high-risk seniors, and also many of those who tend to live their senior lives with a daily worry about death, even if they are generally OK...you know them, always talking about it, always worrying about it.
Also, it's made up of people who are rich, who are celebrities, and those middle class folks who have some kind of guaranteed pay from their employers no matter how long they stay home, or they have the jobs that allow them to work from home regularly. It's also made up of some people who figure that unemployment + bailout is more lucrative and easier than going back to work.
Finally...it's made up in large by the younger, millennial generation...those who are very "progressive" in their thinking, who have grown up with the notion that government is mainly here to provide for them, womb-to-tomb, and who assume that "someone" else is responsible for paying for that service.
They also believe that liberal thinking government is always going to do the right thing, and that it always worries about keeping you protected and safe, more than it does about taking care of the other group mentioned ^^^those who are rich and elite and/or have some kind of celebrity status and agendas.

The other camp is made up of seniors who are not high-risk and who don't live in fear every day of dying from something, but are looking more to live to the fullest, and accept fate as it comes...and also of middle-aged people who grew up with the notion that life is what you make of it, and they don't just want handouts, but rather the opportunity to live individually, and to only get what is deserved through work.
Many of those people are not rich, or celebrities...and don't have guaranteed paychecks...rather they form the backbone of the working class society, and they support the economic infrastructure through that work...either as small businesses or as individuals.
There are also some younger adults who embrace that style of more middle or conservative thinking, but in the millennial generation, they are a minority.
The group is also made up generally of more conservative thinking people who hate the idea of government controlling their daily lives...and they don't want government in their lives from womb-to-tomb...but rather, only to act in a more minimalist way, allowing people to live truly freely, rather than as wards of some welfare state.
This group also feels that being safe can be individually accomplished to basic common sense...rather then as some kind of forced, government protection.

So we have quite a tug of war going on between those two camps...and I do feel that each camp has a lot of heartfelt views in their thinking about surviving the virus and staying healthy, so it's not that one side is completely right or wrong.
That said...I find that the first group, as heartfelt as their thinking may be...fails to look at the big, long-range picture, and they make the faulty assumption that there's no need to think about anything more than the daily virus concerns...and all the economic fallout and whatever destruction is caused by our reactions to the virus...will also be nicely taken care of by our governments, and that the government won't allow us to fall into some economic depressions.
That is the thing part that scares me. That almost uncaring, naïve view of how things can play out really badly if we just sit at home for a few more months until we are saved by some man-made miracle.

I'm sure there is a small third group that's kinds caught in-between...and wants all this to just go away without having to deal with it on any level.
I think our children are mostly in that group...they want to do what kids and teens do normally...and all this is either not really on their radar as intensely as it is with the adults in the other two groups.

 

[RFR]

Superman is a movie character.
Ain’t NO one coming to save us. But when it subsides and we’re left to pick up the wreckage, I’ll betcha the government takes credit for ‘saving’ us.
They’re already making claims about the lives they’ve saved.

Reminds me of a story..... somewhere in the middle of the country a man pulls out this horn and blows into it everyday at noon.

The agitated neighbor asks “why the hell do you do that????”

The horn blower replies “ it’s a Tiger horn! I blow on it and it keeps the tigers away. ”

The neighbor says “ But there AREN'T any Tigers!!!!!

Horn blower “See??? It’s Working!!!”

Kind of like the government with the lockdown.

 

[miroslav]

Superman is a movie character.
Ain’t NO one coming to save us. But when it subsides and we’re left to pick up the wreckage, I’ll betcha the government takes credit for ‘saving’ us.
They’re already making claims about the lives they’ve saved.

Did you expect them to say their efforts were anything but correct...?
Every shutdown governor will claim they did a super job and save thousands of live...with really NOTHING to back up those claims...it's will based on your "tiger" type of assessment.

I wish someone would start compiling data about the economic and social destruction as well as they're counting the virus numbers.
That data will be compiled 5 years from now, when they go 20/20 hindsight and review all the things that were done wrong and caused the negative fallout that we will still be living with 5-10 years from now.

The new propaganda now here in New York....the "Stay Home -Save Lives" messaging on the electronic signs has been changed to "We Are NY Tough".
I think Adolf Cuomo is setting us up for another two-week extensions...with only some minor loosening of the stranglehold.



Back when I was in high-school...I was tasked by the basketball coach and head of our PE department to make up some "spirit" signs, because I was handy with graphics and that kind of stuff.

"A winner never quits, a quitter never wins"...and other such cliché slogans.
That was my first hands-on experience with creating propaganda...though at the time, I was just a gung-ho basketball guy.
That was all for sports...so not viewed as propaganda...but it was still all about getting everyone to think alike.

 

[RFR]

Propaganda is a subject that has been around forever, has been studied by very smart minds, and more importantly, has gotten untold amounts of funding.

These guys are good, they know what they’re doing, and are very skilled in the art of manipulation of the minds of people.

Today with the internet, data collection and AI, it’s more refined.

And sadly, so many people think they are thinking for themselves.

 

[TAE]

So of course the country that was the most strict and smart about jumping all over this bitch...and we all know they are obviously just lying about their numbers...I mean locking people in their apartments for a month + in the region where it all started and making everyone wear a mask or get tossed in jail, taking temperatures at every public place, making every person show their qr code saying they are OK wherever anyone had to pass a toll road...EVERYWHERE IN CHINA couldn't have ANYTHING to do with why they make the rest of the world look like a bunch of dumb asses...Nah they're lying.... And now 2 months later it's business as usual in China... no end of the world.. One world government shit...also they are pretty much all still wearing mask voluntarily now...temperatures and QR codes being checked everywhere still with numbers saying it is totally under control. Everything is open and everyone is back to work and the internal economy there is better than ever...Propaganda I tell ya! FWIW I have dozens of friends and 100's of acquaintances there and if you wanna believe they're lying carry on but based on my contacts...it is exactly as it appears...they took it dead serious , still take it dead serious and have benefited from doing so...we took it half ass, lied about mask, STILL aren't taking temperatures and are paying and will continue to pay the price for apathy...

 

[miroslav]

Propaganda is a subject that has been around forever, has been studied by very smart minds, and more importantly, has gotten untold amounts of funding.

These guys are good, they know what they’re doing, and are very skilled in the art of manipulation of the minds of people.

Today with the internet, data collection and AI, it’s more refined.

And sadly, so many people think they are thinking for themselves.

For sure.

That documentary I mentioned awhile ago, "Stare Into The Lights My Pretties"...really laid it out just how programmed people are these days thanks to their internet gadgets...and the fact that much of what we think, is being planted in our heads to fit whatever "profile" someone has assigned to us.
It's to get around it without serious determination.
The people that run Google, Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo...they work endlessly at thought control, and we accept it with a smile.
We are made to feel special because everything is tailored to our profiles...like junkies and their dealers...and endless cycle of personal feel-good that's there to make someone else rich and in control...not you....you just think you're in control because you're pressing the buttons on the smart phone or your computer.

 

[RFR]

So of course the country that was the most strict and smart about jumping all over this bitch...and we all know they are obviously just lying about their numbers...I mean locking people in their apartments for a month + in the region where it all started and making everyone wear a mask or get tossed in jail, taking temperatures at every public place, making every person show their qr code saying they are OK wherever anyone had to pass a toll road...EVERYWHERE IN CHINA couldn't have ANYTHING to do with why they make the rest of the world look like a bunch of dumb asses...Nah they're lying.... And now 2 months later it's business as usual in China... no end of the world.. One world government shit...also they are pretty much all still wearing mask voluntarily now...temperatures and QR codes being checked everywhere still with numbers saying it is totally under control. Everything is open and everyone is back to work and the internal economy there is better than ever...Propaganda I tell ya! FWIW I have dozens of friends and 100's of acquaintances there and if you wanna believe they're lying carry on but based on my contacts...it is exactly as it appears...they took it dead serious , still take it dead serious and have benefited from doing so...we took it half ass, lied about mask, STILL aren't taking temperatures and are paying and will continue to pay the price for apathy...

View attachment 106173

Then go live in China

 

[miroslav]

Get ready for the second wave, and for a good 2 years of virus activity. I wonder how many plan to stay shut in for all that time...?


Coronavirus may last 2 years, study warns. And its second wave could be worse.

"Because humans don't have natural immunity and the virus is so easily transmitted, up to 70% of the population may have to develop immunity before COVID-19's spread diminishes naturally. That means the pandemic length "will likely be 18 to 24 months," and the virus will remain endemic afterward."


Had we allowed naturally immunity to happen from the start, the immunity "spread" would have been as fast as the virus spread. The longer we avoid it, we end up with a "slow burn" that lasts much longer....but I know, many are hoping for that miracle vaccine to make it all go away that could take months, if not longer, to both develop, and then to immunize what...the whole world...?
In the mean time, the virus is still doing its thing...and we're not really doing anything.

This is no different than war. The enemy is spreading, and all we're doing is hiding, and waiting for the magic weapon to be built that might save us.
The better approach is to fight spread with spread...and yes, just like in war, there are going to be casualties, but it will come down to less causalities now VS a lot more later.
Saving everyone is not possible...it hasn't been possible, no matter how much we've been shut in. The virus still spreads.

 

[TAE]

Then go live in China

Actually I generally I do @ a month or more each year...They won't let me come there right now...smart of their part cause I be spreading the corona all over them non mask wearing fools asses . Encinitas will still let me come down there so that's where I'll be hanging in a few months...Man I need me some golf....until then it's all hunkered down in LA funky town doing my thing on the video screen....

BTW do you really live in Paradise California? That's some bitchin California territory...right next to Zappa's 200 motels "Centerville"

 

[TAE]

Get ready for the second wave, and for a good 2 years of virus activity.

Hmmm? Maybe just maybe ..OK probably more like "highly likely" they will have a vaccine for this bitch in the next 6-9 months If not well then all this "oh shit! round two" prognosticating may have some legs to stand on...in that case it's "Surf's up baby!" Kowafuckinbunga!

 

[RFR]

BTW do you really live in Paradise California? That's some bitchin California territory...right next to Zappa's 200 motels "Centerville"

No. It’s paradise where i live, but I don’t live in that town. Besides, it burnt down a while back.
I’m an hour or so north. Up here they call it God’s Country. But after being a 40 year native of LA, I guess anywhere else is paradise.

 

[miroslav]

You know....every time I see the title of this thread...I can't help but think of this song, and I think that was the intention.
(Look at the comments under the video in YouTube...others were thinking the same thing.)

 

[grimtraveller]

Oh please...Trump hasn't told the people to do anything

My point wasn't that he told anyone what to do, rather that any influential voices will be listened to and all kinds of people will take from various words all kinds of things. Of course some people would stand out in the rain naked if they heard it from someone that appeared to be an expert. Why shouldn't they ?
But equally, many would not. But imagine if the expert was right !
It's hard to escape the conclusion that what you've been advocating all through this thread is that basically nothing should have been done and nature should just have been allowed to take its course. Well, nature has been taking its course and lots of people are dead and ill. It just so happens that nature is not an uncontrollable force in every aspect.
It's not about man made miracles, neither is it about bowing to the inevitable. Personally, I don't fancy a dose of Corona! Neither do I want the flu or shingles or mumps or even a cold. I don't even like hay fever but I've lived with it since 1973 !
It's an interesting thing though, looking back at previous things like the Spanish 'flu. I wonder, if they had been able to do things differently back then, what they would have done. We'll never know of course, but they may not have scoffed at a lockdown if such an option was on offer.

the cure is worse than the disease. Government is destroying lives and the economy. I’m talking about the real people economy

Every so often, something happens to economies of the countries of this world and real people get affected. I was there myself from 2009 to 2012 or thereabouts. And things move and change and we recover. Some go from strength to strength
and some unfortunately don't.
When I said you show your bias, I'm not talking generally, I'm talking about your specific anti~govt bias that will arise regardless of what any govt does.
I'm not here to bash or fight with you because yours is often a valuable and enjoyable to read contribution to a variety of topics. But I'm curious ~ what do you suggest should have been done ? It was recognized in countries all over the world that this was going to be a tight balancing act between a country's economy, the safety of its population and the behaviour of the population.
I'd be the first to agree that govt in its various forms and expressions can be a shitbag {depending on the time and the country we're talking about} ~ but that is not always and intrinsically the case.

 

[TAE]

No. It’s paradise where i live, but I don’t live in that town. Besides, it burnt down a while back.
I’m an hour or so north. Up here they call it God’s Country. But after being a 40 year native of LA, I guess anywhere else is paradise.

Love "God's country" and always fantasized of moving up that way. We honeymooned in Heavenly, Tahoe @ 40 years ago...Have a friend that went up to Lake Shasta and one cousin that made it to Grass Valley still most of family on both sides are still here in the pit ..alas with two married off daughters and 6 grand kids here in So Cal..I'm pretty much here for the duration of my existence unless we hit it rich with my quarantined musical musings hey it could happen! or not..... But then the wife would insist on Encinitas cause she's such a beach hippie. I'm going to live and die in LA

What part of So Cal did you grow up in?

 

[miroslav]

It's hard to escape the conclusion that what you've been advocating all through this thread is that basically nothing should have been done and nature should just have been allowed to take its course.

Nope...never said nothing should have been done.
I even said they should have *quarantined* the entire city of New York right at the start, since that was the main source for the north east...but no, they just shutdown businesses, but allowed those people to move out of the city...and they spread it even further before the shutdowns began.

It's SO EASY to practice good social hygiene and be common sense aware of what to avoid and how to avoid it. We don't need to be forced inside to achieve the same result....but apparently some people prefer that. They want to be treated like children.

Your comment that the virus is like any one of many "things we can so easily pick up from just about anyone that you get close to"...is not really factual.
My point was that since we can't stay inside for two years...about the time exerts believe it will take for this virus to kinda fade away on its own (and by then we might have another one). So the better option was to let natural herd immunity take place...rather than preventing it, and setting us up for a worse second wave, which is now being predicted.

There is no way to provide 100% safety...and prevent all deaths. It's not possible.
So to protect the majority, immunity is the best approach...and yes, for that to happen, a certain number of people will die...but they're already dying, and we're avoiding herd immunity by hiding from the virus.
Everyone is betting that a vaccine will arrive soon to save the day...which will also not be 100% if/when it does arrive.

There's a point were we can't just take some idealistic "every life is precious" position, and allow the collapse of an entire society and way of life...just because we're going to attempt (and fail) to keep everyone safe and alive...while at the same time, ignoring the reality that our actions may cause much worse long-term destruction... than the virus itself.

 

[grimtraveller]

Your comment that the virus is like any one of many "things we can so easily pick up from just about anyone that you get close to"...is not really factual.

It came out on the news a couple of days ago that 41 staff from Transport for London {bus drivers, train platform staff} have died of the virus. All were working during the period it was known that Covid 19 was in the country.
All I can honestly say is that it would be one heck of a coincidence if each and every one of them caught the virus at home or at friends'. Possible, of course. But nonetheless remarkable.

There's a point were we can't just take some idealistic "every life is precious" position

Believe it or not, for some of us, that is our default position in life, notwithstanding that sometimes excruciatingly difficult choices have to be made. Every life is precious and if a life can be kept going and the person doesn't want to checkout just yet, then keep it going.