famous beagle
Well-known member
Not to sound presumptuous Greg, but it really does sound as though you could use my book, Guitarists Guide to Scales Over Modes.
Guitarist's Guide To Scales Over Chords-The Foundation Of Melodic Guitar Soloing(Bk/Cd): Chad Johnson: 9781423483212: Amazon.com: Books
It was pretty much written for people in your shoes exactly. If I had anymore copies, I'd gladly give you one (or anyone else here), but I'm down to my last copy unfortunately.
famous beagle
Well-known member
+1 here. Although I have seen some people who learn theory sound like textbooks in their writing and playing, those were only the people that weren't really creative in the first place. They didn't have that "rock 'n' roll" edge or fire in them. They always just kind of treated music like a math problem. But I've never seen someone who already had a raw knack for melody/etc. turn into something they're not by learning theory. They still sound like them; they just have less limitations and know how to describe what they're hearing/playing, etc.
cakewalkKaKed
HOORAY FOR BOOBIES !!!
i used to struggle learning modes,patterns e.t.c,had a great thirst for anything guitar .. used to sit and watch anybody play (still do when i get the chance) just to see where their fingers went 
then one day i realized that their all the same thing ... after that i realized that i could take most scale books and rip out most pages (suppose having the same "scale" repeated in every key is great for staring at while actually playing in that key
)
for those that don't know ... (and im speaking of relative to today,guitarists and not "ye olde" interpretations of modes or history)
if you know 1 pattern block then you know 7 different "scales" its impossible to know only 1, to get the other "scales" just change the root note
i.e:- if you record yourself (on a phone or whatever) playing a C note then play a Cmajor scale over the top it sounds all "happy" ... if you then record a D note and play the EXACT same Cmajor pattern in the exact same place it sounds all bluesy (its now D Dorian mode)
now do it with an E,F,G,A,B keeping that Cmajor pattern in the exact same place ... that lil happy major scale is also death metal,rawk,weird,neoclassical,sad,tearful,lost,blues yada,yada ..
modes = a scale with the root note changed,that's it,no matter how complicated anybody makes it sound all you do is change 1 fecking note
thinking of it this way will save hours an hours of wasted work ...
btw id recommend learning the pattern blocks using 3 notes per string,this tidily makes 7 easier to learn patterns and after much practice the 3 notes per string will help you get great speeds up (like it or not you WILL get faster )
Major scale depersonalized and reduced to pattern blocks
then one day i realized that their all the same thing ... after that i realized that i could take most scale books and rip out most pages (suppose having the same "scale" repeated in every key is great for staring at while actually playing in that key
)for those that don't know ... (and im speaking of relative to today,guitarists and not "ye olde" interpretations of modes or history)
if you know 1 pattern block then you know 7 different "scales" its impossible to know only 1, to get the other "scales" just change the root note
i.e:- if you record yourself (on a phone or whatever) playing a C note then play a Cmajor scale over the top it sounds all "happy" ... if you then record a D note and play the EXACT same Cmajor pattern in the exact same place it sounds all bluesy (its now D Dorian mode)
now do it with an E,F,G,A,B keeping that Cmajor pattern in the exact same place ... that lil happy major scale is also death metal,rawk,weird,neoclassical,sad,tearful,lost,blues yada,yada ..
modes = a scale with the root note changed,that's it,no matter how complicated anybody makes it sound all you do is change 1 fecking note
thinking of it this way will save hours an hours of wasted work ...
btw id recommend learning the pattern blocks using 3 notes per string,this tidily makes 7 easier to learn patterns and after much practice the 3 notes per string will help you get great speeds up (like it or not you WILL get faster
)Major scale depersonalized and reduced to pattern blocks
famous beagle
Well-known member
i used to struggle learning modes,patterns e.t.c,had a great thirst for anything guitar .. used to sit and watch anybody play (still do when i get the chance) just to see where their fingers went
then one day i realized that their all the same thing ... after that i realized that i could take most scale books and rip out most pages (suppose having the same "scale" repeated in every key is great for staring at while actually playing in that key
for those that don't know ... (and im speaking of relative to today,guitarists and not "ye olde" interpretations of modes or history)
if you know 1 pattern block then you know 7 different "scales" its impossible to know only 1, to get the other "scales" just change the root note
i.e:- if you record yourself (on a phone or whatever) playing a C note then play a Cmajor scale over the top it sounds all "happy" ... if you then record a D note and play the EXACT same Cmajor pattern in the exact same place it sounds all bluesy (its now D Dorian mode)
now do it with an E,F,G,A,B keeping that Cmajor pattern in the exact same place ... that lil happy major scale is also death metal,rawk,weird,neoclassical,sad,tearful,lost,blues yada,yada ..
modes = a scale with the root note changed,that's it,no matter how complicated anybody makes it sound all you do is change 1 fecking note
thinking of it this way will save hours an hours of wasted work ...
btw id recommend learning the pattern blocks using 3 notes per string,this tidily makes 7 easier to learn patterns and after much practice the 3 notes per string will help you get great speeds up (like it or not you WILL get faster
Major scale depersonalized and reduced to pattern blocks
View attachment 93838
IMHO, this is really only half the picture with modes. It's what I call the relative method, because, as you said, all you're doing is playing the same set of notes but just changing what you call the tonic - - just like a major scale (C major) and its relative minor (A minor) .
But when you treat each mode as a scale on its own, with its own intervallic/numeric formula, then you can begin to understand the importance of "knowing the modes."
Instead of playing C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc., try a parallel approach. In other words, play C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc. This will really let you hear the qualities of the modes more starkly, IMO.
cakewalkKaKed
HOORAY FOR BOOBIES !!!
kewl,and a great exercise it is too
which is why i posted the pattern blocks with the root notes for the mode ... (the red dots are the mode sound)as for an explanation as to whats happening this is where it gets confusing,treating them as new scales (and its related theory,looking like 7 new scales with another 7 fingerings to learn where in fact its all the same thing) is much more confusing than saying "now shift that Cmajor block to there" imo letting the unscaled get their boots wet and actually understand what a mode is before weighing them down with (at this stage) unneeded theory
once a mode is grasped it can be shifted to any key,it aint hard but some peoples explanations make it a minefield (lol even mine
)the most piss easy explanation of modes:-
do ray me fa so la ti do now start on ray
G
Greg_L
Banned
Uh, yeah it does. I was gonna give this a try, then I read this thread, now I'm like wtf.
famous beagle
Well-known member
kewl,and a great exercise it is too
as for an explanation as to whats happening this is where it gets confusing,treating them as new scales (and its related theory,looking like 7 new scales with another 7 fingerings to learn where in fact its all the same thing) is much more confusing than saying "now shift that Cmajor block to there" imo letting the unscaled get their boots wet and actually understand what a mode is before weighing them down with (at this stage) unneeded theory
once a mode is grasped it can be shifted to any key,it aint hard but some peoples explanations make it a minefield (lol even mine
the most piss easy explanation of modes:-
do ray me fa so la ti do now start on ray
I agree with you that it can seem more confusing to think of modes as scales in their own right, but actually, we already do that if you think about it. The major scale is called the Ionian mode, and we say its numeric formula is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. Or you can use the intervallic formula of W W H W W W H.
But the (natural) minor scale is also a mode: Aeolian mode. And we say its numeric formula is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7, or the intervallic formula of W H W W H W W.
So that's already an example of treating a mode of the major scale (the Aeolian mode) as its own scale. What I'm saying is that we just extend that concept to all the other modes as well.
My only issue with always relating them back to a parent major scale is that guitarists (rock ones usually) seem to always just think of them as seven different fingering patterns for a major scale. And a lot of them stop there and don't ever really learn what the modes sound like because, when applied that way, it all just ends up sounding like the parent major scale. Jazz musicians, for example, don't do that. They know Dorian or Mixolydian as their own scales---Dorian being like a minor scale but with a natural 6th, or Mixolydian being like a major scale but with a flat 7th, etc.
Check out the attached files to hear what I'm talking about with the parallel approach. Over the same chord, Bm7, there are three different minor modes being used: B Dorian, B Aeolian, and B Phrygian. This way you can hear how the different modes sound.
To me ... it's ultimately easier, and makes more sense, to be able to just think of B Dorian as B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A instead of thinking, "Ok, Dorian is the second mode of the major scale, and B is the second note of A, so B Dorian is the same as the A major scale but just treating B as the root."
I don't mean to toot my own horn on this, but there are a lot of people on the Amazon reviews for the above-mentioned book that specifically mentioned my explanation of modes as the best they'd ever seen. It may seem complicated in my summary here because I haven't gone through all the ground work. It sounds as though, Cakewalk, that you probably know most of that ground work, but there are a lot of people that don't.
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Greg, don't try too much too quick, go back to the start And try that adlibbing I suggested.
G
Greg_L
Banned
I have soooo many stupid questions though. Like....how do you know what "mode" to play? What if you don't know anything about scales or keys and shit? And what the fuck do you do when the music underneath is rapidly changing powerchords? The music I play isn't some slow jam with the bass and rhythm guitar gently strumming away on an unchanging minor chord. Before I even think about trying to even begin to understand this crap, I need to know that it isn't pointless for the music I play.
cakewalkKaKed
HOORAY FOR BOOBIES !!!
you defo know your shit ! nice playing too,and tone !!! (git
)and that's what im on about,read back what you put from a nonscaled persons perspective,how off putting is that? the nonscaled would need to do homework just to understand what your saying ... slide em in gently is my point .. you have years of experience,studied,practiced done the countless hours,how hard can it be for an intelligent man like yourself to condense that down into easily understood bites ...
don't get me wrong im in no way knocking you or your book,would like to read it sometime
G
Greg_L
Banned
you defo know your shit ! nice playing too,and tone !!! (git
and that's what im on about,read back what you put from a nonscaled persons perspective,how off putting is that? the nonscaled would need to do homework just to understand what your saying ... slide em in gently is my point .. you have years of experience,studied,practiced done the countless hours,how hard can it be for an intelligent man like yourself to condense that down into easily understood bites ...
don't get me wrong im in no way knocking you or your book,would like to read it sometime
This is the problem for theory dummies like me that would like to understand more. We can't, and it's frustrating, because those that know this foreign language talk about it like everyone is just born knowing this shit.
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
It isn't pointless, mate. And it is even useful for punk rock.
I was completely self taught and only started to gradually pick this shit up in the last 5 years after 15 years of just making it up. I learned to play by buying tab books of my favourite albums.
I'm happy to give you a hand with it, you've helped me plenty with tone. Gotta take it really slow otherwise it's just info overload
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I wrote this before JDOD posted, but them my computer lost connection. I don't think I'm exactly disagreeing with him, but...
The thing is that you don't really need to understand it, be able to talk about it, and you definitely don't need to be able to write a dissertation on it. We could name any number of famous musicians who can't even name the chords they're playing let alone what mode they've chosen for a given piece.
By this point in our lives we've heard enough music to have a certain set of expectations about how a phrase is "supposed to" flow, how one chord in a progression should lead to another. We can hear when we've played the right note, and we can tell when we've hit a wrong note, and we can tell when that wrong note is actually the right one to get across what we're trying to convey. We can also feel the way that a given chord in a key wants to lead to another, and feel the tension that comes when it doesn't. A large part of modal theory and really all of what we do is working those expectations, fulfilling or denying them to create the emotional response we want. There are long boring books all about the how's and whys, but you don't need to read them. You play it, we feel it.
What I thought the OP was about was more building up the muscle memory so that you can trust your fingers to find the right notes - and the wrong notes - at the right time without having to think about it.
The thing is that you don't really need to understand it, be able to talk about it, and you definitely don't need to be able to write a dissertation on it. We could name any number of famous musicians who can't even name the chords they're playing let alone what mode they've chosen for a given piece.
By this point in our lives we've heard enough music to have a certain set of expectations about how a phrase is "supposed to" flow, how one chord in a progression should lead to another. We can hear when we've played the right note, and we can tell when we've hit a wrong note, and we can tell when that wrong note is actually the right one to get across what we're trying to convey. We can also feel the way that a given chord in a key wants to lead to another, and feel the tension that comes when it doesn't. A large part of modal theory and really all of what we do is working those expectations, fulfilling or denying them to create the emotional response we want. There are long boring books all about the how's and whys, but you don't need to read them. You play it, we feel it.
What I thought the OP was about was more building up the muscle memory so that you can trust your fingers to find the right notes - and the wrong notes - at the right time without having to think about it.
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Yeah, that's about right mate.
As I said, it won't change your style, it'll just free you up a bit so you're not stuck in small boxes when you're playing lead.
Sure you can gradually work it out all by ear over time, but then learning a little theory will accelerate your learning.
As I said, it won't change your style, it'll just free you up a bit so you're not stuck in small boxes when you're playing lead.
Sure you can gradually work it out all by ear over time, but then learning a little theory will accelerate your learning.
R
RFR
Well-known member
An intimate understanding of the things you are doing is always valuable and will make the mechanics of it easier and better.
What's the old saying, knowledge is power.
What's the old saying, knowledge is power.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Right.
I see many forum discussions about this, where guys approach it like they are doing a term paper and they need a high grade to pass.
Like you said, the number of great players that really don't know that stuff with any depth, shows you don't need it to play really well or to obsess about needing to know it in order to play well....but of course, as many have said, knowing it certainly doesn't hurt you, and it can give you some knew perspectives that might be useful, especially if your playing a huge variety of music.
If you predominantly do one style, just hone those needed skills and don't lose sleep over the rest.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Yeah, but then I almost have the opposite problem. Not saying I'm any music theory guru, but like I said I've been doing it forever, and I end up having trouble getting my head around things that deviate or ignore the "rules". I can pick up a song that purely diatonic pretty quick, but if they go and throw in a chord that doesn't fit the key, it fucks me all up.
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Hmmm, I'd been playing a long time before I learned any of this shit. Obviously I think it's better this way (confirmation bias) as I think it's allowed me to come up with my style first and then use all this other stuff to develop my playing.
R
RFR
Well-known member
I'd been in Hollywood for years and knew a lot of the musicians institute people. They learned all the theory stuff.
But its funny in all the local music classifieds there was often a disclaimer.
No MI need apply. No one wanted these technically trained guitar players.
My observation was that it took a couple of years after graduating for them to become real world seasoned players.
But at that point all the theory paid off.
Me, I dont know shit about theory, dont know shit about playing. Can't improvise, can't solo, can't write a decent song to save my life..........
But I am a 100% professional at drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. ......and I do it all with feel.
But its funny in all the local music classifieds there was often a disclaimer.
No MI need apply. No one wanted these technically trained guitar players.
My observation was that it took a couple of years after graduating for them to become real world seasoned players.
But at that point all the theory paid off.
Me, I dont know shit about theory, dont know shit about playing. Can't improvise, can't solo, can't write a decent song to save my life..........
But I am a 100% professional at drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. ......and I do it all with feel.
