JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Cool. Kinda hoped this would be helpful to everyone.
Technical Guitar Skills
- Thread starter JDOD
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famous beagle
Well-known member
Yeah .. again, that's the relative method of thinking of modes. In my opinion, it's not very useful. All you're doing is changing which note of a major scale you consider the root. The C major scale yields the modes of:
C Ionian (another name for the major scale)
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (another name for the minor scale)
B Locrian
But, as you said, if they all contain the same fucking notes, what's the point? I agree with you.
But if you think of them in parallel terms, where the tonic (or root) stays the same, and the notes change, you can hear each one as its own separate scale more easily (IMO). So instead of playing the above list of modes (which, by themselves, all sound like the C major scale), if you play them all starting on C, you'll hear their unique sound. In this list, the major scale's numeric formula is the basis upon which the others are altered. Compare Ionian (1 2 3 4 5 6 7), for example, with Dorian (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7), and you'll see the only difference is that the 3rd and 7th notes (E and B) have been lowered a half step to Eb and Bb in the Dorian mode.
C Ionian (1 2 3 4 5 6 7): C D E F G A B
C Dorian (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7): C D Eb F G A Bb
C Phrygian (1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7): C Db Eb F G Ab Bb
C Lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7): C D E F# G A B
C Mixolydian (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7): C D E F G A Bb
C Aeolian (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b6): C D Eb F G Ab Bb
C Locrian (1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7): C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb
I understand that you (or most of us) don't play music that sits on one chord for a long time, but these modes can be divided into major- and minor-sounding depending on their 3rd. In this case, with C as the root, the major modes will have an E note (major 3rd), and the minor modes will have an Eb (minor 3rd). So the major modes are Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. The minor modes are Dorian, Phyrgian, and Aeolian. The Locrian mode has a minor 3rd too, but it also has a flat 5th, which makes it unique. It's not used often outside of jazz or some metal.
Anyway, again, this is all kind of putting the horse before the cart, because in order to understand how these modes can be applied, you need to have a knowledge of how intervals, scales, and chords work together, which is not something that can be summed up in a post here. I'm just trying to illustrate that the modes are not just seven different fingerings for the same major scale. Granted, that's one way to think of them, but it's not very useful IMO.
famous beagle
Well-known member
I didn't see all of these other replies when I typed my last one.
The answer is yes, depending on what you meant by your question. Yes, those notes are in every mode of the C major scale, but they're not in every C mode.
The modes of the C major scale are as I listed earlier: C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. This is just the notes of the C major scale with each different one being treated as the tonic. In other words, the notes stay the same, but the tonic changes. Without any other context (chords beneath), these will all pretty much sound like the C major scale.
But you can also play each of the seven modes with C as the tonic. That's when you get C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc. In this way, the notes will change, but the tonic stays the same. These will all sound very different from each other even without any other context.
Again, I think this is sounding confusing because you're trying to put the horse before the cart. I really don't think it will be as confusing to you if you were to back up and start from the beginning (or at the point you're at with regards to theory---I don't know exactly where that is).
famous beagle
Well-known member
Greg, it really seems as though you'd like to know about this stuff. Tell ya what. Go buy my book. It's $11 at amazon. I don't know if you checked out the link earlier, but it's not some self-published job. It's published by Hal Leonard, and it has a 4.5 rating with 100 reviews. This is what I do for my day job.
If you have any problems, I'd be more than happy to clarify. If you don't like the book and it's not working for you, I'll happily buy it from you and and pay for shipping.
I'll happily extend this guarantee to anyone else who buys it as well. I genuinely enjoy teaching people about this stuff.
If you have any problems, I'd be more than happy to clarify. If you don't like the book and it's not working for you, I'll happily buy it from you and and pay for shipping.
I'll happily extend this guarantee to anyone else who buys it as well. I genuinely enjoy teaching people about this stuff.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
They're not, actually. C Locrian, for example, doesn't have A or G natural. That's because it's actually the Db Major scale. If you wanted to play a straight I IV V rock song in C Locrian, you'd use the chords Cdim, Fm, and Gb. That will not sound like any rock song you've ever heard. I actually have a song in E Locrian on my most recent album, but when I had folks come in to record parts for it, I didn't fucking tell them that. I told them it's in F, but based around the Edim chord.
The modal shapes that the other guys are talking about are a somewhat different thing. They are actually not modes of C. They're modes of some other damn note (usually the lowest note in that scale shape), but are actually all just C Major/Ionian. Yes, it's confusing and that's why I don't fuck with it.
I use the CAGED system, which is a somewhat different way of mapping the scale across the fretboard, based entirely around the major pentatonic scale. Play an open C chord. There's a scale around that which makes C pentatonic. Now play the A-shaped C barre chord. There's another scale shape around that which is C pentatonic. Now play the (rather uncomfortable) G-shaped C barre chord (root on 6th string, 8th fret), there's another C pent scale around that. Some for the E-shaped barre chord (actually the same root note as the G-shape), and then the D-shaped C chord, and then you're up to the C-shaped barre chord whith the barre at the 12 fret, which is just an octave up from the open position. You can keep going up from there. Learn those five scale shapes based on the barre chords of their name, and then learn to string them together and you've got the pentatonic scale up and down the fretboard.
Then you learn where the two "extra" notes (the ones that are in the major scale, but left out of the pent) fit into each of those shapes and you've got the major scale all up and down the fretboard, and I think you've also got five of the modal shapes from above.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I totally get your perspective...and kinda why I never got into the "What mode am I playing?" camp...but again, it's not bad stuff to know, but getting to know it can make things more confusing at first than you want them to be.
This guy does a fair explanation of why you might want to know "What mode am I playing?"
Why Use Modes?
In a nutshell, here's what he says:
In my own words...to answer your question that I quoted above....modes are collections of notes/patterns that tell you which ones to use with which chords/scales. The scale is all the notes that are possible...the modes are the notes that will sound best in a given scale/chord combination...and that can change as your keys/chords progress, given the complexity of the progression.
My own approach, as mentioned, was to know the basic scales...after that, I just learned over time which notes sounded best for a given chord progression, based on how I liked to play, and how I saw the fretboard....without ever really caring about the modes I was playing.
I mean...just use your ears and they will tell you what's better/worse, and then you can develop your own logic of how it all unfolds on the guitar neck.
Using the standard modes/patterns allows you to have some common ground with other players. That's really all that theory does for you...yet some players can play great, and not know any standard theory, because they just play within their own "theory".
I mean, if you need to teach a class or stand around with a bunch of other guys going, "Yeah, I played a C Ionian and then moved to the C Dorian on the second half of the measure...yada, yada, yada"....then you need to know this shit inside-out, otherwise, it's nothing more than knowing/playing the notes that sound good at a given moment.
You can learn by sound and trial-n-error...or your can first learn all the standard theory, and then learn how to apply it.
Either way...there's no shortcut (I'm not saying you were looking for one).
I learned to play without knowing/caring about "What mode am I playing?"
I'm sure that I've played in all the modes, song to song, it just wasn't something I consciously focused on...needing to know them and name them.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
...Which is to say "I modulated from C Major to Bb Major in the middle of the measure."
Chord progressions like that always just confuse the fuck out of me. I end up just throwing up my hands and saying "Fuck it, there's no actual key!" and revert to playing chord tones and listening for voice leading without really worrying at all how it fits in any scale.
Edit so as not to double post -
The following really isn't meant as spam. You can go listen to my album on bandcamp if you want, but I don't think you need to in order for me to possibly illustrate some of this modal stuff.
My most recent album is actually strictly diatonic. Except for maybe a few wrong or "blue" notes here and there, each song is completely contained within one key. It is, however, pretty damn modal because of the way I shift the chord progressions around.
I already mentioned "Back to Snow", which is a horrible mess, but is in F, played over Edim, so E Locrian. The title track "All You Hear" starts off quite squarely in C Major, then goes to something that sounds like blues in Em, but is actually still in C (the bass kind of emphasizes the F natural to prove we're not actually in Em), so we could call this section E Phrygian. The loud section is also based off Em, so still E Phrygian. Eventually it turns into a completely different song, which has always been C major. The song "Come and Go" is completely in D minor, but the intro acts like a G minor chord progression, so this must be G Lydian, I guess. "Faded" is pretty squarely in E minor. The verses do a iv - i - iv - v thing which is not unusual in the typical 3 chord genres. But, it really does almost sound like the Am is the anchor in this section - like i - vii - i - ii - so you might argue that this is A Phrygian most of the way through. Well, I guess the intro is most of the song, so after that... For the first song on the album, I pretty much just hold a Dm7 chord the whole time, and the "progression" - Dm to C - feels like i - VII, like "War Pigs". But everything else is actually playing in C Major, which means the whole fucking thing is in D Dorian.
As I was writing these pieces, I did deliberately play games with the key centers. I just now looked up what actual modes were represented so I could try to explain it. It probably doesn't help, but maybe it'll light some bulbs somewhere...
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JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Beagle, I found that really useful. But I think you're going a bit too complex too early! I found the relative method of thinking of the modal shapes really helpful as it gets you used to playing them, it also helps you learn to use the whole fretboard when you're playing some lead as opposed to going to a having to move to a particular spot.
Then you can start experimenting with them in their own context
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
When I get the odd transition that doesn't seem to have an obvious scale that works over it, I just find the 1-2 key notes that do work, and use them as my anchor for that transition...which is pretty much what knowing modes tells you in a standardized way.
I mean...when I'm recording or just learning a lead for a song...it's not a big deal, I just work it out, and then I know what to do when I get to that weird transition.
For live jamming situations...it all comes down to your collective experience. IOW....if you found a way around something weird in the past, you just apply it and use it in that situation. Knowing the starting key/chords...kinda tells you where to find it on the neck for any given thing....and ultimately, I fall back on the Jazz mentality that ANY note(s) can work any time with anything, as long as you nail the notes before and after.
Knowing all the modes-n-theory is nothing different than just knowing your fretboard in whatever way is comfortable to you....it just that with the theory, you can communicate easier with others who also know it.
That may or may not be important to some folks.
famous beagle
Well-known member
you defo know your shit ! nice playing too,and tone !!! (git)
and that's what im on about,read back what you put from a nonscaled persons perspective,how off putting is that? the nonscaled would need to do homework just to understand what your saying ... slide em in gently is my point .. you have years of experience,studied,practiced done the countless hours,how hard can it be for an intelligent man like yourself to condense that down into easily understood bites ...
don't get me wrong im in no way knocking you or your book,would like to read it sometime
I missed this earlier ... sorry about that. Thanks for the kind words. This stuff is definitely over the heads of someone who doesn't understand basic scale construction. If you don't understand how to build a major scale from any root, modes really shouldn't be part of the question, IMO. But people are asking here, so ...
famous beagle
Well-known member
Just because a chord isn't diatonic to one key doesn't mean you have to throw your hands up and say fuck it. There are still very good ways to analyze non-diatonic chords that make sense. In the key of C major, a sole Bb chord would a borrowed chord, meaning it's borrowed from the parallel key of C minor. For instance, the classic rock progression of C, Bb, F is a prime example of this. These three chords are all diatonic to the key of F, but in many songs that contain this progression, C is clearly the tonic and not F. If these three chords were the only chords of the whole song, you could call the progression a modal progression, which would be C Mixolydian. However, if there are other chords from the key of C major, like Am, Dm, or G, for example, then I would call the Bb a borrowed chord.
Or take a song like "From Me to You" by the Beatles. It starts clearly in C major with C to Am and G chord. There's one non-diatonic chord, F7, at the beginning of the "chorus" (just call on me ... and I'll). That's a bluesy-sounding chord, which is very commonplace in a 12-bar blues in C, but if you were to analyze is technically, it would be a secondary dominant --- specifically a V/bVII (read "five of flat seven"). In other words, it's the dominant (V) chord in the key of Bb. Since a Bb chord doesn't follow it, the F7 is a non-resolving secondary dominant.
At the bridge, however, we have a new progression for "I've got arms that long ..." It moves Gm to C7 to F. This is a temporary modulation to F: Gm = ii, C7 = I, and F = I. Then it moves to a D7 chord, which functions as a V/V back in the key of C. In other words, D7 is the dominant chord of G (which in turn is the dominant chord of the home key, C). This creates a strong pull back to the dominant chord of C, which is a G. The tension is even heightened more when the G turns to a G+ chord. All this tension is resolved when the song moves back to C for the last verse.
So .... just about any chord you find in a typical pop song can usually clearly be analyzed in terms of function. Most of them don't appear out of a vacuum (although that does happen every once in a while).
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pikingrin
what is this?
Me, too... I've been following along and still have yet to completely understand but it has kind of helped me grasp some of the stuff that's written in the old scale book that my wife got for me. But, at this point it's still waaaaay over my head.