UFX ad/da converters

  • Thread starter Thread starter jarl
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No problem at all. We learn all our live, and this is probably most interesting IMHO.
It looks like you had similar problems with UFX+MK2. You managed to cope with it somehow, but it raises a question: is this the common issue with any interface+mic combination or specifically this one when recording acoustic instruments? Schoeps and RME have quite flat characteristics (are pretty transparent), but in spite similar things could be said about couple of other mics and interfaces, each one of them sounds different. This is because different electronics were used to achieve a similar result. Similar not identical! This is my point, that maybe this combination (UFX+MK2) tends to sound dry and clinical when recording quiet string instruments. I really don't know, it's just my supposition.

Not in my experience. I also own a MOTU Traveller(MKI) that I've been using for years for location work. I just used it on a quick project last weekend. It has horrible pre's on it. It doesn't matter what I use for mics - even my most "warm" mics. It is outrageously sterile and unnatural sounding. But... I still use them often since it's easier to bring a 5lb box in a backpack rather than a 200lb rack. My arms can't handle the stress anymore. My age is catching up with me (and I'm still "young"). I degrees... even with its crappy pre's, I still get a good sound out of it. It's way less forgiving than the pre's on the UFX, but it makes me more diligent on mic placement. I can get lazy with mic placement with the Millennias and UFX in comparison.

I recorded an organ concert at the Basilica of St. Mary's in Minneapolis and Michael Barone of MPR also set up his mics for his radio show Pipe Dreams. He uses DPAs with custom pre's. He said he doesn't like Schoeps. At first I felt bad about my equipment cause it's Michael Barone, and then I got over myself and started using my gear to the best I can. After both CDs were finished, I was told mine was the best sounding recording done in the Basilica! I was using 4 channels of Millennias, 4 channels of the UFX, and the 2 channel John Hardy (and if I remember right, the 2 channel FRM RNP for surround - which I never used in the final mix - but I used only 4 CMC64s and a bunch of cheap no-name Chinese SDCs.). It's not that I'm a better engineer than Michael or that I have better gear (and he's probably been doing this longer than I've been alive), I just used what I had at the time to the best I could. He's probably got his system down and knows how to get a "good enough" sound for the radio (which is actually excellent). If I did it now, it would be all Millennias and Schoeps. Would be it better? Probably, those SDC were really bright.

I sometimes forget the main rule of recording: If you have a bright source, don't use bright mics - use the opposite. When recording jazz trumpet, my first choice is my modified Nady or MXL ribbon mics (I replaced the trannies with Lundahls). They sound AMAZING! Better than Royers when I tested them back to back. I was not expecting that at all. But ribbon mics are so basic in design, I'm not too surprised anymore. If a musician has a bright instrument or plays stridently, using a darker mic may balance that out.

I have Spaces Convultion reverb. It's simple (not many knobs to turn), but sounding really good and natural. However as you rightly pointed out, it shouldn't be used to fix a bad recording.

That's the one included with Logic, isn't it? I felt it was OK, but it wasn't great on everything. I felt the reverb that came with Garageband was actually better... Sounds completely nuts. Maybe I wasn't using the Convolution Reverb to its best.

I wonder what difference in sound you noticed after hooking up your Hardys? I presume you too weren't absolutely satisfied with just UFX+MK2, no?
Thanks for some interesting ideas.

Actually, I really do like the combination of the UFX and MK2s. I still prefer the Millennias over the Hardy's for most classical projects. The Hardy's sound amazing though - especially jazz and of course rock (especially bass, guitar, all drums). I lent my gear to a bass playing friend for his solo album because he wanted to use the Millennias, but he went with the Hardy's instead. My guess is that the Hardy's and the MK2s would sound great with accoustic/folk/bluegrass music.

I shouldn't say I always use my Schoeps and Millennias on every classical gig. If a student needs a recording for grad school or audition CD, I may use more forgiving mics like Oktava's and run through the Millennias. Scheops pick up EVERYTHING - the good and the bad, all the nuances. With a musician who doesn't have their finesse developed yet, the Oktava's cover up the less desirable aspects of their playing. I'd rather have a little more noise in the recording and make the musician sound better, than a "clean" recording that sounds sloppy. The mic really does have more influence over the sound than the pre.

The point is that you are going to find a much more difference with different mics than pre's and hopefully get less bright recordings.
 
Aren't Schoeps designed to be flat and neutral sounding? They don't have the typical 2k-6k rise that other condensers might have. Perhaps they aren't the best mic for your recordings or you have to EQ out the mids and lower mids to get an artificial rise.

Yep, they should be, but as I said before "flat" is a general term and flat mics tend to sound slightly different. EQing is an option, but I'd prefer to find a proper tool first for my job if only possible.

Maybe they are capsule dependent and you aren't using the right ones. What else do you have in your mic locker?? Price doesn't matter, my go-to vocal mic can be found on eBay for $25.

They are. The capsule that I have should be in theory ideal for classical, acoustic music. I also own Neumann KM184, Rode NTK, and Coles 4040. Neumanns are too bright, Rode too noisy (best for vocals), Coles could be OK, but it needs a good preamp to show its best (which I don't have). Besides I've got only 1 of them, so couldn't AB. In general small diaphragm mics are best to record strings because they capture transients very well.

I'm surprised you can't get a good capture with your equipment list.

So am I :-(
Best
 
If I did it now, it would be all Millennias and Schoeps.
I sometimes forget the main rule of recording: If you have a bright source, don't use bright mics - use the opposite. If a musician has a bright instrument or plays stridently, using a darker mic may balance that out.

So you don't think Schoeps is a bright mic? I mean practically - in theory it's absolutely flat.

That's the one included with Logic, isn't it? I felt it was OK, but it wasn't great on everything. I felt the reverb that came with Garageband was actually better... Sounds completely nuts. Maybe I wasn't using the Convolution Reverb to its best.

Not really, it's a full commercial version from Soundsonline.com , impulse reverb (quite natural).

Actually, I really do like the combination of the UFX and MK2s. I still prefer the Millennias over the Hardy's for most classical projects. The Hardy's sound amazing though - especially jazz and of course rock (especially bass, guitar, all drums). My guess is that the Hardy's and the MK2s would sound great with accoustic/folk/bluegrass music.

I'll have a hard time choosing a proper pre. The choice is really bewildering - Hardy, Millennia, Pueblo, Gordon, Forssell, Cranesong, NPNG, DAV…..all of them really great. Definitely it would be nice if it added some warmth to the sound.

Scheops pick up EVERYTHING - the good and the bad, all the nuances. The mic really does have more influence over the sound than the pre.
The point is that you are going to find a much more difference with different mics than pre's and hopefully get less bright recordings.

Agreed! The only problem being that there aren't so many warm sounding SD mics with flat characteristic. I was told DPAs might be good as well, but some say they could sound even more clinical than Schoeps. Senheiser is another possibility, but I never heard any good acoustic samples to compare them with other mics in this category.
 
I'm sorry. I didn't mean for that to come out the way it did. I understand you have set yourself a high bar and won't compromise. I think that's good. :)

No need to feel sorry. Obviously I understand you are all willing to help and I appreciate it very much indeed! It's great to be able to talk and share ideas. Any new idea could be useful. I was thinking about this problem for a longer period of time. Now I will have to make some decisions that will involve cash again unfortunately. Or maybe sell some stuff that I won't use anymore and buy what I really need. So please, if you have any experience with this gear share your opinions, suggestions, ideas etc.
Thanks again!
 
Not really, it's a full commercial version from Soundsonline.com , impulse reverb (quite natural).

That's right. Logic is Space Designer...

I need to find a great surround reverb - and I'm cool with a convolution if it's available, but usually I don't have time to make an impulse response in the spaces I record to be of any use (though I could probably find a use).


I'll have a hard time choosing a proper pre. The choice is really bewildering - Hardy, Millennia, Pueblo, Gordon, Forssell, Cranesong, NPNG, DAV…..all of them really great. Definitely it would be nice if it added some warmth to the sound.

You've got some good mics and with all those channels open on the UFX, you really could use some pres. I've always wanted to hear a DAV in action. You could go with a Great River too. They are supposed to be more like the Neve 73, but more transparent than the Hardy. There's also the Chandler Geranium... Again, more bewildering choices! Heck, you could go on the cheap and get a GoldenAge Pre73 and mod it. Then you'd really have something with color to choose from.

Agreed! The only problem being that there aren't so many warm sounding SD mics with flat characteristic. I was told DPAs might be good as well, but some say they could sound even more clinical than Schoeps. Senheiser is another possibility, but I never heard any good acoustic samples to compare them with other mics in this category.

Warm sounding with flat characteristics.... I've always thought of "warm" mics were those with the highs attenuated - like ribbons. Not necessarily accurate. I would like to compare the Coles with my modded ribbons sometime. I like my MK2s way better than the MK4s. The MK4s are bright and I think the MK2s are warm in comparison. But they are not warm in the sense of loss high frequency. The ribbons sounded dull in comparison before the mod - now the highs are much more open and flatter on the high end, but not like the MK2s. When I said the MXL and Nady sounded better than the Royer, I really think they do - but it's more like comparing a Maserati vs a Lamborghini - both are good cars but they handle a little differently (I assume since I haven't driven either! - I couldn't fit in a Lamborghini anyways, I'm 2 meters tall).

I went with Schoeps over the Neumann KM184 for the exact reason you stated - too bright. And I didn't want to get a bunch of "overpriced" used 84s, when I had the option to purchase omni capsules (or whatever) with the Schoeps.


As Chili was saying...

Aren't Schoeps designed to be flat and neutral sounding? They don't have the typical 2k-6k rise that other condensers might have. Perhaps they aren't the best mic for your recordings or you have to EQ out the mids and lower mids to get an artificial rise.

Maybe they are capsule dependent and you aren't using the right ones. What else do you have in your mic locker?? Price doesn't matter, my go-to vocal mic can be found on eBay for $25.

I'm surprised you can't get a good capture with your equipment list.

Cheap Chinese SDC are based off of the Scheops design, but without the high end frequency attenuation circuit (or at least that's what I read on the internet). And some great mics are the "cheap" ones. And since you do you have other good mics, different pres are probably the way to go.

I forgot, how is the room your recording in?
 
Sorry about my stream of consciousness writing. I do that more than I'd like.
 
You've got some good mics and with all those channels open on the UFX, you really could use some pres. I've always wanted to hear a DAV in action. You could go with a Great River too. They are supposed to be more like the Neve 73, but more transparent than the Hardy. There's also the Chandler Geranium... Again, more bewildering choices! Heck, you could go on the cheap and get a GoldenAge Pre73 and mod it. Then you'd really have something with color to choose from.

As far as I know DAV is pretty warm, but not as detailed as Forssell or Gordon. But fortunately it costs a couple of bucks less. On the other hand I'm a little bit tempted by Cranesong as it has those knobs for tweaking sound a bit…you know, "iron" and "fat". If you don't want them the main channel is really pure, but if you feel that what you hear is too thin or clinical you can always add a tad of this magic. Any cons? Pricey!


Warm sounding with flat characteristics.... I've always thought of "warm" mics were those with the highs attenuated - like ribbons. Not necessarily accurate.

Sure, it wasn't a very precise expression. I don't mean real warmth, like what you can expect from some ribbons or valve mics. So called "flat" mics tend to sound different from each other. Some are more clinical, others seem to sound slightly warmer. It's just my impression, not science. I agree, flat should be flat, but is it?

I would like to compare the Coles with my modded ribbons sometime. I like my MK2s way better than the MK4s. The MK4s are bright and I think the MK2s are warm in comparison. But they are not warm in the sense of loss high frequency. The ribbons sounded dull in comparison before the mod - now the highs are much more open and flatter on the high end, but not like the MK2s. When I said the MXL and Nady sounded better than the Royer

I don't have any ribbons other than Coles 4040 which is a very nice mic. It sounds quite natural, no harshness whatsoever. But this is a newer edition that has a slight boost around….(can't remember at the moment), something like 10kHz. You wouldn't really hear it. Great for sax and some winds. Not so good for delicate pluckies as it tends to be slightly dull (problem with capturing fast transients).

I went with Schoeps over the Neumann KM184 for the exact reason you stated - too bright. And I didn't want to get a bunch of "overpriced" used 84s, when I had the option to purchase omni capsules (or whatever) with the Schoeps.
And since you do you have other good mics, different pres are probably the way to go.

Exactly, this is why I bought Schoeps. And I agree, it's probably time for different pres.

I forgot, how is the room your recording in?

My main room is treated with some bass traps and diffusers, but I tried to use MK2s in other venues too. It sounded best in a church. It wasn't that clinical, but I still had a feeling that treble sounded thin and unattractive in comparison to what I could hear from the player.
 
My main room is treated with some bass traps and diffusers, but I tried to use MK2s in other venues too. It sounded best in a church. It wasn't that clinical, but I still had a feeling that treble sounded thin and unattractive in comparison to what I could hear from the player.

I'm recording my easy arrangement of Linus and Lucy for my guitar ensembles this week. It will probably be in my small mixing room (which is "treated with some bass traps and diffusers," so hopefully it will be like yours). It sounds good, but I've never recorded in there so it will be a good experiment. I'll run it all through the UFX pre's with a bunch of different mics. Hmmm... maybe the TLM 103 (cardioid), MK2 and MK4, Oktava mk012 omni, MXL 144 ribbon or Nady ribbon or a some cheap Chinese sdc. I could run these same mics through the Millennia too just to double check or even add the 2 channels of Hardy too. I've got a bunch of tube mics too: C12 clones, some Neumann clones (I can't remember what models right now), and others. Actually, I have no desire to bring out those mics for a test like this. It would take too long (I've got a 19 month old - and I've got to get everything done while he sleeps). I could also just do all Schoeps through different pres. Do you have a preference? I'm not sure how to post mp3s on HR, but I will have videos up on Youtube. But Youtube compression destroys everything, so that's not good. I can make a dropbox and give a link if that works for you. If this won't help you, I might or might not do it depending on time. It's something I'm interested in doing, but I'm going to Hawaii on Friday for a vacation and need to get everything else in my life in order too.
 
I'm not sure how to post mp3s on HR

When you post a reply, click on Go Advanced in the bottom right corner of the reply dialog. Select the Attachment icon (paper clip) and go through the prompts to upload your file. I always have a little problem with attachments, not sure why, but usually upload, close the window and open it again, then I can attach to post.

HR allows a 10meg file for mp3's.

Hey, I would love to get your input on recording concert bands and orchestras. I have a thread going under Recording Techniques.

but I'm going to Hawaii on Friday for a vacation

With a 19 month old?? Brave soul.
 
When you post a reply, click on Go Advanced in the bottom right corner of the reply dialog. Select the Attachment icon (paper clip) and go through the prompts to upload your file. I always have a little problem with attachments, not sure why, but usually upload, close the window and open it again, then I can attach to post.

HR allows a 10meg file for mp3's.

Hey, I would love to get your input on recording concert bands and orchestras. I have a thread going under Recording Techniques.



With a 19 month old?? Brave soul.

Yes Chills, took me a time to work it out! But here's one for Da Management! Why can I attach over 2mb of MP3 (320kHz) as shown but not even half that as a .wav please?

Dave.
 

Attachments

Yes Chills, took me a time to work it out! But here's one for Da Management! Why can I attach over 2mb of MP3 (320kHz) as shown but not even half that as a .wav please?

Dave.
A 1meg wav file??? Is there such a thing. LOL. I do not believe wav files are allowed. There is a list in the Attachment dialog of what is allowed and limits.
 
A 1meg wav file??? Is there such a thing. LOL. I do not believe wav files are allowed. There is a list in the Attachment dialog of what is allowed and limits.

That MP3 was originally just over 10meg so I could easily have sent in an edited clip. I cannot see any valid reason for not allowing small .wav files? MP3 forks things (and peeps never use the high res settings) so when a bod posts a noise/hum etc it is far better to have the original file. I only need 10secs of it to run it thru RightMark Analyser.

So, is this a digital technical thing or just an oversight?

Dave.
 
I don't know for sure, Dave, I can only guess at a reason. So, my guess is, most people would not utilize a short clip in wav format, so the site owners opted not to allow wav files at all.

You are probably the rare exception who wants to post only a 10 second clip in a wav format. :)
 
When you post a reply, click on Go Advanced in the bottom right corner of the reply dialog. Select the Attachment icon (paper clip) and go through the prompts to upload your file. I always have a little problem with attachments, not sure why, but usually upload, close the window and open it again, then I can attach to post.

HR allows a 10meg file for mp3's.

Hey, I would love to get your input on recording concert bands and orchestras. I have a thread going under Recording Techniques.



With a 19 month old?? Brave soul.

Excellent. Thanks for the guide.

Yeah, I'll go check your concert bands/orchestra thread when I have a moment....

The kid is staying with the grandparents! A whole week without the munchkin! This will be a first. My wife and I have only had 1 night away without him since he was born. And I think I can count the number of dates we've had on two hands since he was born too.
 
I don't know for sure, Dave, I can only guess at a reason. So, my guess is, most people would not utilize a short clip in wav format, so the site owners opted not to allow wav files at all.

You are probably the rare exception who wants to post only a 10 second clip in a wav format. :)

Can we post FLACs? I'd prefer that if possible.
 
"You are probably the rare exception who wants to post only a 10 second clip in a wav format."

But Nay and Forsooth C my man!" I want OTHER PEOPLE to post .wavs!
As I said, with an MP3 you don't not know what spectral mangling has been performed and so it make diagnosing audio problems more difficult.

BTW. This is always my beef with guitar amp posts. "Listen to this great Billy G grind"...How can you tell on the hugely complex harmonics that OD amps produce when it has been screwed down to 128bps?!

Mind you! A lot of peeps are listening on sub 20 quid PC speakers or worse, laptops!

Dave.
 
I'm recording my easy arrangement of Linus and Lucy for my guitar ensembles this week. It will probably be in my small mixing room (which is "treated with some bass traps and diffusers," so hopefully it will be like yours). I'll run it all through the UFX pre's with a bunch of different mics. Hmmm... maybe the TLM 103 (cardioid), MK2 and MK4, Oktava mk012 omni, MXL 144 ribbon or Nady ribbon or a some cheap Chinese sdc. I could run these same mics through the Millennia too just to double check or even add the 2 channels of Hardy too. I've got a bunch of tube mics too: C12 clones, some Neumann clones (I can't remember what models right now), and others. Actually, I have no desire to bring out those mics for a test like this. It would take too long (I've got a 19 month old - and I've got to get everything done while he sleeps). I could also just do all Schoeps through different pres. Do you have a preference? I can make a dropbox and give a link if that works for you. If this won't help you, I might or might not do it depending on time.

Wow! That would be fantastic, but obviously I hope it wouldn't take too much time in your situation. Well, I can only say what could be helpful for me at the moment, and you can do whatever you like in your spare time. My list could go like that (in order of importance):
1. UFX+MK2s only
2. UFX+Millenia+MK2s
3.UFX+Hardy+MK2s
4.UFX+TLM103 only
5.UFX+Octava only
6.UFX+any pre+TLM103
Any other combination could be interesting but not as important. Yes, you can create a dropbox for me, or send to the forum if attachments are allowed. It would be best to have it in wav format, but I'm not sure if it's possible due to the size.
Thanks a lot! :)
 
I wanted to give an update... in Hawaii right now. Last week was absolutely horrible for my family and I wasn't able to get any work done, which included all recording work. I'm sorry about that - I do my best to do what I say. It will be done when I get back (after I take care of the messy situation I left with). I will be mostly internetless on this vacation, so I won't reply.
 
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