Is a mic preamp worth it?

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Bobbsy said:
Even this isn't a safe assumption. Yes, the expensive pre amp CAN sound good (if it says Rupert Neve on the front there's a good chance you'll like it, though whether it's as much better than cheapies as the price indicates is a different issue) but there's also a lot of snake oil out there with sellers taking advantage of the fact that far too many people believe expensive must=good. Alas, you often can't even trust reviews. In magazines these are all too often written on the basis of "the more advertising you buy, the better the reviews you will get". Also, even reviewers can suffer from the audio placebo effect unless they do true blind testing--something rare in their job.
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And you would think the manufacturers of op amps would be scientifically removed from such audiophool BS but no!
Some inhabitants of Silicon Valley cannot resist in calling their high performance audio chips "musical"!

Dave.
 
Bobbsy said:
Fine, but that's a different discussion. The $50 advocates are talking about pre amps, not full feature channel strips or whatever you wish to call them.
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Agreed. I often point out that added features and better build quality (= better reliability) are justification for paying more. I'm sure I said earlier in this thread that I don't usually buy cheap junk. I did once buy a cheap Radio Shack phone tap to record a phone call, and couldn't justify $300 for a pro model to use just once. But mostly I buy "prosumer" gear where you get fully professional quality for an affordable price. So I have Mackie, Sony, Rane, and Yamaha, and a Pioneer receiver in my living room home theater. But no single device cost even close to $1,000 other than my huge old-school JBL 4430 loudspeakers, killer SVS subwoofer, and Mitsubishi video projector.

--Ethan
 
Maybe this will help the OP. Maybe not. I did a little preamp shootout a while back to satisfy my own curiosity, and I've tried to attach it below. It's four preamps in random order; three outboard and one built into my mixer. The outboards have a street price of $300, $1,500, and $2,500. They are not in that order on the recording. In fact, I have a hard time remembering which is which listening to it now. I'll leave out the names for now to make the listening a little more blind. See what you think.

The sample is two repetitions of a riff from each preamp, and then one more repetition from each. The source is a Neaumann TLM103 about a foot in front of a Taylor 914.

View attachment preamps2.mp3
 
JohnWatkins said:
Maybe this will help the OP. Maybe not. I did a little preamp shootout a while back to satisfy my own curiosity, and I've tried to attach it below. It's four preamps in random order; three outboard and one built into my mixer. The outboards have a street price of $300, $1,500, and $2,500. They are not in that order on the recording. In fact, I have a hard time remembering which is which listening to it now. I'll leave out the names for now to make the listening a little more blind. See what you think.

The sample is two repetitions of a riff from each preamp, and then one more repetition from each. The source is a Neaumann TLM103 about a foot in front of a Taylor 914.

View attachment 81428
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well.... they all sound different.
#2 sounds a little muffled compared to the others ..... #3 is brighter and #4 has a fatter sound .... maybe a bit more mids.

If I HAD to pick one on nothing other than this sample played back thru my puter speakers as I'm doing ...... I'd want #3 for its' crispness although this would be a way small example to make that choice from.

But they each have their own sound ..... they don't sound the same to me for whatever that means.

Nice to hear that comparison and I look forward to seeing which is which.
Thanks for posting it.
 
ecc83 said:
And you would think the manufacturers of op amps would be scientifically removed from such audiophool BS but no!
Some inhabitants of Silicon Valley cannot resist in calling their high performance audio chips "musical"!

Dave.
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Dave, I thought you, of all people, would understand the grading of electronic components.

Ranked from lowest grade to highest:

1 Standard/consumer grade
2 Industrial grade
3 medical grade
4 Aerospace/military grade

and finally (in hushed and reverent tones)

5 Audio Grade

The finest equipment uses only audio grade components ;)

Paul
 
miroslav said:
I clearly outlined earlier in this thread what I (and a lot of other people) considered a high-end preamp was all about.
So no....this is not a different discussion...it's been exactly THE discussion.
I even gave some specific models of existing high-end preamps (none of them are "channel strips")....and I said build me one of those high-end ones for $50. :)

Looking at something on "paper" or talking hypothetically about what one "could" build is all fine for these kick-the-can disucsisons....but I'm talking reality. Find me an existing $50 preamp that is identical in all aspects to the ones I mentioned earlier.

This is why these "handfull of cheap componets" perspectives don't present fair, realistic views...but they play well in the eyes of home-rec newbs who are trying to build a "studio" for $300.

:rolleyes:
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:rolleyes: right back at you.

If you need a box that contains a compressor, a limiter, fully featured EQ, metering, etc. etc. that's absolutely fine. But that's NOT just a pre-amp. You're basically putting a rack load of equipment into a single box so of course it's going to cost a bundle.

However, none of those adjustments have anything to do with the prime purpose of an actual pre amp which is to add sufficient gain to bring a mic level signal up to line level--and do it with a minimum added noise and either a neutral effect on the over all sound or a pleasing colouration (depending on your taste).

All the other bits may or may not be useful depending on your work flow but they are nothing to do with a pre amp even if they're in the same box. Further, every dollar spent on these extras is a dollar not being spent on the pre amp itself.

As for your beginner with $300 to spend, the last thing he or she needs is a super fancy box with lots of features he can't and won't use. A basic interface with a decently quiet pre amp in it will be fine--with more money spent on the mic and some acoustic treatment.

Thinking about it, I have one of your super boxes in the form of a DM1000 mixer--dynamics processing on every channel, 4 band parametric EQ on every channel, metering on every channel switchable to be pre or post fader, etc. etc. ....and some of the better pre amps produced by Yamaha. However, I don't refer to each full channel as a pre amp. The pre amp is just that, the first portion of the input stage. Think of it that way. I'm sure you wouldn't refer to each full channel on a professional mixer as a "pre amp".
 
Bobbsy said:
If you need a box that contains a compressor, a limiter, fully featured EQ, metering, etc. etc. that's absolutely fine. But that's NOT just a pre-amp. You're basically putting a rack load of equipment into a single box so of course it's going to cost a bundle.
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:facepalm:

Why don't you go a couple of pages back and re-read the thread.

I clearly stated what I thought a pro, high-end preamp was about, and I gave at least three examples of actual brands/models...and NOWHERE is there any mention of "compressor", "limiter", or "EQ", nor do those models have them.....

....sheeeeeesh! :rolleyes:

I was talking about preamp-specific features/functionality only.
If you want to strip the whole thing down to a preamp PCB in some cigar box, with a couple wires sticking out, all for $50...
....that's NOT going to be a pro-level preamp.
 
Sheesh, Miro...had a bad day?

I've just gone back five pages and found a general reference to you wanting to try a Groove Tube ViPRE pre amp.

Since then, though, several have stated clearly that THEY expect a preamp to have the bells and whistles I mention above. So be it but that becomes more than a pre amp in my eyes...and that's certainly where this thread has moved onto.

I'm happy to go on record as not thinking a lot of the boutique pre amps are not worth the money charged. Unless the rest of the chain, the performance and the room are perfect, the subtle differences are just audiophoolery. However, I'm happy to admit that this is only MY opinion. If other find a boutique pre amp works for them, great. But for ME, if I had a couple of thousand to spend, a pre would be low on my list.

You'll note I've stayed out of the rather pointless debate about the value of the components in a box. The components in ANYTHING are the least of the cost compared to the design, the box, the labour and so on. Even your expensive ViPRE is probably less that $50 worth of bits inside but that's the least of the cost of getting it to market. The same can be said of almost any industry--next time you go to a posh restaurant, reflect on how little of the bill goes to the raw ingredients.
 
No...I'm not having a bad day....:)...but if you reply to my posts, it has nothing to do with what others have said.
I mentioned the ViPre, Grace M201 and RN Portico 5012.
There are other high-end brands that are also just preamps (no comps, limiters, EQ sections included), and they too have features that are specific to preamp use.

AFA the ViPRe having less then $50 in parts...again, just assumptions made for effect.
I happen to own a SuPre, which is the "little brother" of the ViPre (a very sought-after preamp in pro circles when it was in production)...and I've been "under the hood" of the SuPre, and I can guarantee there's a lot more than $50 worth of parts in there, nevermind the ViPre...
...but parts are just a portion of what makes a preamp a preamp, and especially what makes a $1000 pre VS a $50 pre.
Some of the comments in this thread dismiss (done intentionally for effect) a lot of those build/functionality aspects of high-end pres. For anyone that thinks they can have a "state-of-the-art", pro-level preamp....for the cost of the parts....
...man, build one, and put it on the market!

You'll sell a million of them at $50. ;)
 
You can buy a heck of a lot of electronics (unassembled) for $50. That's not necessarily a slur on the quality of even a high end pre amp.

The last electronics project I built was a theremin for my wife and all the components including the box were just over $30 to buy. (Being honest, I spent rather more than $30 because some things came in minimum packs of five or ten so I had to buy more than I needed--but this isn't an issue for a manufacturer doing multiple units.)

Factor in my hourly rate for the design and build and you have a theremin worth thousands though.
 
Perhaps the discussion is best served by this example?

Cloud Microphones Cloudlifter CL-1 | Sweetwater.com
The device has been reviewed to be about as clean and transparent a pre amp as you are likely to get. Yes, it costs 3x my original figure but, as Bobbsy has tirelessly tried to point out, THAT is for the essential components. The CL1 is built like a BSH and has an XLR each end, they have to be a dollar apiece. Add in assembly time R&D and a drinkypoo for everyone involved and $149 is a bargain!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Perhaps the discussion is best served by this example?

Cloud Microphones Cloudlifter CL-1 | Sweetwater.com
The device has been reviewed to be about as clean and transparent a pre amp as you are likely to get. Yes, it costs 3x my original figure but, as Bobbsy has tirelessly tried to point out, THAT is for the essential components. The CL1 is built like a BSH and has an XLR each end, they have to be a dollar apiece. Add in assembly time R&D and a drinkypoo for everyone involved and $149 is a bargain!

Dave.
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The cloud lifter is not a preamp. It is a device for lifting the gain of low volume / output microphones, like ribbons. It has to be plugged into a preamp.

Alan
 
witzendoz said:
The cloud lifter is not a preamp. It is a device for lifting the gain of low volume / output microphones, like ribbons. It has to be plugged into a preamp.

Alan
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Well, as I've been to the dentist, have the anaesthetic starting to come out so I can combine dribbling with hurting like hell, this seems like a really good time to make a pedantic post!

The Cloudlifter IS a pre amp and even Sweetwater say so right under the name of the product:

1-channel +25dB In-line Microphone Preamplifier
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Of course that's only the strict definition. With only 25dB of gain and no adjustment, it's NOT the kind of pre amp we're talking about here--but I might as well argue to keep my mind off the pain!
 
witzendoz said:
The cloud lifter is not a preamp. It is a device for lifting the gain of low volume / output microphones, like ribbons. It has to be plugged into a preamp.

Alan
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Yes it is. All the basic elements of a mic pre amp are there it simply lacks a gain control pot or switch.

Dave.
 
I do think expensive preamps are overrated and don't think they're worth it. I'm of the opinion that there are more important things to consider. I think of them kind of like rolling amp tubes. Sure, they make a little bit of difference, but there are way more significant aspects to guitar tone than tube brands. Maybe if you have everything else dialed in perfectly a fancy preamp can take your sound up a notch.....or it can screw everything up. Who knows? Who cares? Just buy whatever you want to buy and do whatever you want to do. Bam. Greg wins again. :thumbs up:
 
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