Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
sure ...... there's stuff with major production values that's pure crap and then some of the most important of say, the early punk movement, had very low quality recordingwise.I think that's a fair statement.
A great vocalist with a signature sound will carry most of that regardless of equipment.
Better equipment can just add that extra 10-20% of "polish" to something that's already good....but it won't lift a shitty source out of the toilet!
There have been quite a few things I've heard right here at HR that, personally, I find as compelling as anything there is. Tjarko did a CD once that I listened to for months ...... Crawdad too ..... and sLuiCe .... holy crap.
Great music is art and art can be produced in different ways whether we're talking great painters like Picasso vs. Dali vs. Escher or great music like Sgt. Peppers vs. Bitches Brew vs. Smells Like Teen Spirit.
I just want to hear good music and I don't analyze the technical aspects of it much nor do I go, "Oh .... there's a little hiss .... it sucks".
It is a valid approach for those who are more interested in the gear than the music but for me, it's not important.
My own opinion on the expensive gear question, since I have yet to even comment on it, ..... I think the good gear has a sound ...... I labor to find a good descriptor for it .... but has a more polished, grain free sort of sound. I know that's vague but it's the best I can do.
Premium gear has an effortless quality to its' sound ...... I've never had any of that gear myself. I'm just basing it on hearing other's recordings that stood out to me as sounding especially good vox-wise, and everytime I asked about their gear they had 1500-2000 dollar pres.
Since I didn't know in advance that they had such gear ...... the sound just stood out to me when I heard their CD .... seems like there must have been something it was doing that made me notice it.
PDP
There once was a note
He didnt even mention any gear, "it twas just my magination, runnin away wit me"
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
first .... you HAVE to have gear to record.
What I didn't do was make any comment whatsoever about anything that you had said concerning gear or the cost of it which is what you accused me of when you said:
So I'll ask again, since I made no comment regarding what you thought about the cost and quality of the gear, why do you think I did?
To a large degree I was agreeing with you so quit with the imaginary argument.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
I agree with everything said here. There is no preamp made that will take the 'suck' out of a performance. But, there seems to be a bit of sweetness that a nice preamp adds to a great performance. Hell, I am still waiting for the great performance. lol
To Miro: the X73I is a very clean preamp all the way. But, I have pushed the input gain up and down the out and achieved some qualities that I would describe as 'growly' with bass guitar. I know, that is a silly term. It was more of an experiment as to what the pre could do. It takes a lot to make the preamp dirty up the input signal. It may have more to do with the eq than the preamp itself.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Heck Jimmy, we have to do what we can, and I'm certainly willing to do my part, and buy some more of that high-end gear so those manufacturers don't go out of business...
....now with all these $50 state-of-the-art pres that are going to be flooding the market.
Oh, and LOL!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
While I believe that a preamp that costs $2000 dollars must have more in the long term going for it than a $50 one, when all is said and done, I too just want to hear and make good music. Listening to some songs from HR from the likes of rayc, Wish 14, Squibble and others, over the last couple of weeks, they're not recorded brilliantly......but they are adequate and the songs are freaking fantastic. That's why they'll be part of my listening till I quit this mortal coil.....
In simpatico with that, I find there to be, both in pro circles and home recording ones, an underlying opinion of music prior to the digital era proper that it didn't sound as clear or as good or that the recordings can't compare to those of now. While it may be true and might make for endless fascinating debates, it's irrelevant to me because
.
Of course, I'm biased as the 1964~83 period is my favourite for most music.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Agreed. The best way to establish an "order of importance" is to assess the degradation added by each stage. Obviously the performance is outside the loop, and surely that matters more than anything. Even if a singer is out of tune, it might be on purpose for effect. Is that sexy raspy quality intentional or the result of a sore throat? And so forth. But everything else can be assessed objectively. If a typical loudspeaker has a response that varies by 5 dB across its useful range with 3 percent distortion, but an electronic device is flat within 1 dB with 0.01 percent distortion, then clearly the speaker loses. Untreated rooms add unwanted echoes, comb filtering, and low frequency peaks and nulls that span 30 dB or more. So to my way of thinking the room is most damaging, followed by speakers, then microphones, then everything else together is probably around 1 percent or so unless something is broken or poorly designed.
I'll add that the more one understands electronics, the more clear this becomes.
--Ethan
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Even this isn't a safe assumption. Yes, the expensive pre amp CAN sound good (if it says Rupert Neve on the front there's a good chance you'll like it, though whether it's as much better than cheapies as the price indicates is a different issue) but there's also a lot of snake oil out there with sellers taking advantage of the fact that far too many people believe expensive must=good. Alas, you often can't even trust reviews. In magazines these are all too often written on the basis of "the more advertising you buy, the better the reviews you will get". Also, even reviewers can suffer from the audio placebo effect unless they do true blind testing--something rare in their job.
G
Greg_L
Banned
I agree. It's ridiculous. I can't even stand to open a TapeOp anymore. They review a piece of gear, gush over how awesome it is, and wouldn't you know it......turn the page and there's a giant two-page full color 3-D high-def ad of that same piece of gear. Lame.
MrWrenchey
Member
I'm talking in the context of "state-of-the-art"..which would be more than just pure "straight-wire gain" IMO.
It should have all the pro, state-of-the-art features and functionality....for $50.
That's not being obtuse...just the expectation of something that is "state-of-the-art".
I know I'm rather late on this, but someone said that anything other than "straight wire with gain" was distortion is drunk.
For example, the 4-710d from Universal Audio is $500 a preamp, and offers a 15dB pad, phantom power, a mic/line switch, a VU meter that can display the Drive, MTR out, or Gain reduction (more on this soon), a low cut, and a phase reversal switch.
Not only that, but it also offers inserts on the channels, as well as a built in compressor that's the same as the 1176, which is around $2000 new on Sweetwater. It's built into EACH of those channels.
It's also got a gain knob AND an output knob, so you can control how hard you're driving the preamp, as well as a knob to control how much of the sound is going through a tube pre or a transistor pre.
To FURTHER what you're getting out of $500 a pre, there's a limiter you can turn on the outputs, as well as 2 ADAT outs, Wordclock in and outs with a 75 Ohm terminator button, and an AES/EBU output.
Tell me... Can I build that on a preamp for $50? Because that all sounds like stuff that's more than just "distortion" that I'd love to have in my studio on a preamp. xD
EDIT: Oh, and it also offers four "Discrete JFET DI with 2.2M ohm ultra-hi-Z impedance."
I dunno what any of that means, but the point is, it can accept instrument level inputs as well. More things that aren't distortion. Also, the inserts on it are balanced.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
But we're getting well beyond pre-amps here. That's about 10 boxes in one which leads to to wonder how much of the $500 is going on the pre amp and how much on all the other bits and piece.
On a personal note, about the only thing on that list that I'd find useful is the metering...I'd like to know what level I'm hitting the A to D with after the pre amp--the phantom power (but that's a necessity) and, very rarely the pad. But for the others:
-Mic line switch? You don't need the pre amp at all for line level
-Low cut can be done in the DAW with more control
-Phase reversal...again, best done in the DAW if needed
-Inserts? I advocate NOT adding effects while tracking but that's just me
-Compressor? Again, I don't compress while tracking. And what compressor is worth $2000 per channel? "Industry standard" ones (over used phrase I know) are a fraction of that.
-Gain knobs? You've lost me. Surely even the input one is controlling the gain on the pre amp--and I'm not clear on your reference to running a differen (tube) pre amp after this pre amp.
-Limiter? Separate from the compressor above? Why?
-ADAT, AES/EBU ins and outs and world clock? Then it's also an A to D and D to A
Although I would never use them I agree that all those things add to the cost of manufacture--but they are also components and development costs on top of the pre amp itself so, far from proving that more expensive pre amps are better, rather indicate that the pre itself has to be built to a price to allow room for all the extras. In amongst all that other stuff, the pre amp itself could easily be one of the $50 ones.
On a personal note, about the only thing on that list that I'd find useful is the metering...I'd like to know what level I'm hitting the A to D with after the pre amp--the phantom power (but that's a necessity) and, very rarely the pad. But for the others:
-Mic line switch? You don't need the pre amp at all for line level
-Low cut can be done in the DAW with more control
-Phase reversal...again, best done in the DAW if needed
-Inserts? I advocate NOT adding effects while tracking but that's just me
-Compressor? Again, I don't compress while tracking. And what compressor is worth $2000 per channel? "Industry standard" ones (over used phrase I know) are a fraction of that.
-Gain knobs? You've lost me. Surely even the input one is controlling the gain on the pre amp--and I'm not clear on your reference to running a differen (tube) pre amp after this pre amp.
-Limiter? Separate from the compressor above? Why?
-ADAT, AES/EBU ins and outs and world clock? Then it's also an A to D and D to A
Although I would never use them I agree that all those things add to the cost of manufacture--but they are also components and development costs on top of the pre amp itself so, far from proving that more expensive pre amps are better, rather indicate that the pre itself has to be built to a price to allow room for all the extras. In amongst all that other stuff, the pre amp itself could easily be one of the $50 ones.
MrWrenchey
Member
My point being that a lot of these high end "preamps" aren't even JUST preamps. They've got all these bells and whistles, like with the X73i having the entire EQ section and pads and phase switches and whatnot.
As for your personal preferences on "no effects while tracking," that's obviously personal preference and has nothing to do with what the unit offers for the price. There are plenty of big names like Fab DuPont and CLA that are more than willing to do things like that before it even hits the tape or disc drive or whatever.
The gain knob IS the input knob, it just says gain on this unit. My point being you can increase the gain and decrease the output so that you can color the sound without overloading your converters. I can spend a decent amount on an interface with built in preamps (like a Focusrite 56 or an RME or something), and most won't offer that ability. I don't really know if their preamps are known for their coloration or not, but you get my point. Also, it's not running any preamp before or after. The tube and transistor are run at the SAME time, phase aligned and all. This way, you can get the attack of the transistor and/or the harmonic distortion people love out of the tubes. That's the whole selling point of the twin-finities.
Same goes with low-cuts and phase reversals. A lot of people figure that if you just get it right on the way in, it makes it easier. Adding that stuff in to the box just makes it so that if there IS an issue, like a snare mic being out of phase with overheads or whatever, you can just flip that switch and it's fixed permanently. No need to worry about it in the box.
Not to mention the 1176 IS an "industry standard" one. Shoot, the blue-faces go for a friggin' TON of money.
Granted, people like Hairball Audio have made it so you can build one yourself for $500, but that's kinda just proving my point that you get one of those units that are even $500 on the DIY perspective built INTO your preamp right there.
As for your personal preferences on "no effects while tracking," that's obviously personal preference and has nothing to do with what the unit offers for the price. There are plenty of big names like Fab DuPont and CLA that are more than willing to do things like that before it even hits the tape or disc drive or whatever.
The gain knob IS the input knob, it just says gain on this unit. My point being you can increase the gain and decrease the output so that you can color the sound without overloading your converters. I can spend a decent amount on an interface with built in preamps (like a Focusrite 56 or an RME or something), and most won't offer that ability. I don't really know if their preamps are known for their coloration or not, but you get my point. Also, it's not running any preamp before or after. The tube and transistor are run at the SAME time, phase aligned and all. This way, you can get the attack of the transistor and/or the harmonic distortion people love out of the tubes. That's the whole selling point of the twin-finities.
Same goes with low-cuts and phase reversals. A lot of people figure that if you just get it right on the way in, it makes it easier. Adding that stuff in to the box just makes it so that if there IS an issue, like a snare mic being out of phase with overheads or whatever, you can just flip that switch and it's fixed permanently. No need to worry about it in the box.
Not to mention the 1176 IS an "industry standard" one. Shoot, the blue-faces go for a friggin' TON of money.
Granted, people like Hairball Audio have made it so you can build one yourself for $500, but that's kinda just proving my point that you get one of those units that are even $500 on the DIY perspective built INTO your preamp right there.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well...then it could be just the preamp on a PCB with some wire leads that you can splice into. That could be only $50....right?
Hey...I thought we're talking about serious, high-end preamp boxes, like the kind that already exist from manufacturers VS those that exist for $50 (not too many)....
...and not just about a schematic for some hypothetic preamp that maybe one could build for $50 in parts, on a breadboard.
To me...it's the full-feature set, the complete in-the-box package, that makes most of the high-end pres stand out, and also to a degree the quality of the actual preamp circuit, of which there can be many that are not just straight-wire gain, but also not built for distortion.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Well...then it could be just the preamp on a PCB with some wire leads that you can splice into.
That could be only $50....right?
Hey...I thought we're talking about serious, high-end preamp boxes, like the kind that already exist from manufacturers VS those that exist for $50 (not too many)....
...and not just about a schematic for some hypothetic preamp that maybe one could build for $50 in parts, on a breadboard.
To me...it's the full-feature set, the complete in-the-box package, that makes most of the high-end pres stand out, and also to a degree the quality of the actual preamp circuit, of which there can be many that are not just straight-wire gain, but also not built for distortion.
Fine, but that's a different discussion. The $50 advocates are talking about pre amps, not full feature channel strips or whatever you wish to call them. Indeed, if you can build in all manner of compressors, EQ, metering, digital ins and outs etc. etc. then, as I said above, you come close to proving that the pre amp itself probably ISN'T worth much more than $50.
MrWrenchey
Member
Maybe this is why there's such argument on here.
My understanding was the term "pre-amp" as in a box you use to amplify a mic level signal to a line level signal, along with all the bells and whistles it comes with. You know, because all of the current day outboard "pre-amps" are usually not JUST a preamp. They have things like EQ and compressors built into them. Which is why I reference the 4-710d, as opposed to something that only had an input knob to decide how much gain your microphone needed. I mean, shoot, you go to the "preamp" section on Sweetwater, and you've got the Millennia ST-1 ($3,000, includes EQ, compression, a de-esser, and a tube AND transistor preamp), all the Vintech models that include a preamp and something like a compressor or EQ or whatever, The Avalons that have built in DIs and filters and pads, etc. Those names are big names for preamps and none of them are JUST a preamp. That's why it costs more than $50, obviously.
Of course, from Bobbsy's response, it sounds like he thinks it's exactly what I just mentioned. Something that JUST offers gain to a microphone signal. But I guess I can't say that's all he meant for sure either.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Nope, you've got it exactly right MrWrenchly. A pre amp is just that--a device that applies 40 or 50 dB of gain to a mic level signal to bring it up to line level. All the rest are extras.
(Well, even the basic ones will have SOME extras like a gain control, phantom power, maybe a meter or at least a clip light--but you see my point.)
So, that, at least in part, is the argument pro/con a $50 pre amp. Once you start adding elaborate electronics like compressors or maybe parametric EQ, that's who whole different kettle of fish and probably more of the overall cost than the pre amp section.
(Well, even the basic ones will have SOME extras like a gain control, phantom power, maybe a meter or at least a clip light--but you see my point.)
So, that, at least in part, is the argument pro/con a $50 pre amp. Once you start adding elaborate electronics like compressors or maybe parametric EQ, that's who whole different kettle of fish and probably more of the overall cost than the pre amp section.
MrWrenchey
Member
Well, sure, I was aware of that. My confusion in what precisely we were debating just kind of arose because we were originally talking about how much commercial preamps cost that are in professional studios. That would entail having one of the preamps that are similar to the ones I mentioned previously, which AREN'T just a device that applies so many decibels of gain.
I mean, I'm sure you guys are right. If you're just building a pre-amp to do just that, then you probably can build a quality one for fairly cheap. My debate was simply that the commercial ones have a lot more to offer than that, so that's probably where you see the price hike come into play. But even still, as was previously mentioned with the acoustic traps, even if you boiled the price down to JUST the cost of components, you haven't factored in the cost they spend on mass producing them, as well as shipping and whatnot. That's all I was trying to state. =]
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I clearly outlined earlier in this thread what I (and a lot of other people) considered a high-end preamp was all about.
So no....this is not a different discussion...it's been exactly THE discussion.
I even gave some specific models of existing high-end preamps (none of them are "channel strips")....and I said build me one of those high-end ones for $50.
Looking at something on "paper" or talking hypothetically about what one "could" build is all fine for these kick-the-can disucsisons....but I'm talking reality. Find me an existing $50 preamp that is identical in all aspects to the ones I mentioned earlier.
This is why these "handfull of cheap componets" perspectives don't present fair, realistic views...but they play well in the eyes of home-rec newbs who are trying to build a "studio" for $300.
So no....this is not a different discussion...it's been exactly THE discussion.
I even gave some specific models of existing high-end preamps (none of them are "channel strips")....and I said build me one of those high-end ones for $50.
Looking at something on "paper" or talking hypothetically about what one "could" build is all fine for these kick-the-can disucsisons....but I'm talking reality. Find me an existing $50 preamp that is identical in all aspects to the ones I mentioned earlier.
This is why these "handfull of cheap componets" perspectives don't present fair, realistic views...but they play well in the eyes of home-rec newbs who are trying to build a "studio" for $300.