Can you help me with this room please?

[JimmyS1969]

Man, for spot placement for flutter echo, the foam works fine. But you have no substantial bass trapping in the room. The 4" thick panels you have are bare minimum, and your first reflection points should be at least 2" rockwool or similar. Mine side panels and ceiling panels are 4". I noticed a huge difference when I installed them.

The fact that you say you do not use the monitors to make decisions, is exactly why I feel you are on the wrong track here.

I am making no judgments or trying to sell you anything. Your setup just isn't doing you any justice at this point...

 

[demensia]

The fact that you say you do not use the monitors to make decisions, is exactly why I feel you are on the wrong track here.

Well, I don't really have any decisions to make.... I'm trying to record live performances with a single mic... There's really not much to decide. It sounds good, or it doesn't.... and it doesn't.

What track would you suggest I be on? My first reflection points are 2" oc705, I move them around based on if I'm tracking or listening.

Hanging fiberglass from the ceiling just seems like a disaster waiting to happen... But if I don't have another choice, I guess I'll have to figure it out.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Well then, I suppose I did not know your plans to record performances with one mic. Your link to the recording in your room is dead.

What is it that drives you to make live recordings with only one mic in such a small space? I am just curious.

I would think if you were going this way, you would be spending as much time asking about suitable microphones, and placement of them. Again, I am just curios as to what you are trying to achieve, what you are recording, and what it is that isn't sounding good to you.

 

[JimmyS1969]

And to add, I have no clue how to even guess on how to treat that room well. It would involve testing and someone who really knows what they are doing. I treated my rectangular rooms well. Mostly by luck and abundance of traps. You may need to get the advice of a studio treatment pro. You have already gotten some here, but I'm not sure the shape of your room is lending itself to typical treatments.

 

[demensia]

Thanks for following along with this thread, by the way.

Really what I'm after is a very dry, very real sound for a singer songwriter. Something like Gillian Welch, Peter Mulvey, Damien Rice, Redbird, Greg Brown... etc.

Kinda like the bluegrass folks do. I just like that natural sound.

What I'm getting though is very thin, hollow, far away sounding, and dead and with multiple mics I get really annoying phasey sounding artifacts that drive me insane.

I had always kinda planned to kill the room, get a clean, crisp recording, and put it in a nice space with a convolution verb. Perhaps that's the wrong approach. I'm having trouble with the clean, crisp recording part, and because I'm using pretty widely accepted equipment, I assumed the room was the problem. Maybe it isn't. I have no idea, but something isn't right.

I got plenty of decent mics and pre's and have experimented with then in pretty much every configuration and placement, it's just not working out.

For Mics I have:
SM57
Beta 58
SM7B
Matched pair of NT5s
AKG C414ULS
AT3035
AKG Perception 420

For Guitars:
Martin 000-SM15
Martin 000x1
Martin GPCPA3
Taylor GC3

For Pres:
Focusrite Liquid 56 pres
Focusrite ISA One
Joemeek V3CEQ

 

[mjbphotos]

I think you just told us your problem - trying to record with 1 microphone. If that's what you are doing, there is no 'mixing' to take place, what you capture is what you got, the best you can do then is some EQ or compression to the whole thing. Forget what bluegrass bands do with a big ol' condensor and a nice room. Close-mic everything to get the room out of the equation.

 

[demensia]

I think you just told us your problem - trying to record with 1 microphone. If that's what you are doing, there is no 'mixing' to take place, what you capture is what you got, the best you can do then is some EQ or compression to the whole thing. Forget what bluegrass bands do with a big ol' condensor and a nice room. Close-mic everything to get the room out of the equation.

That's why I added the SM7B, but even when I close mic everything, the individual tracks come out nice, but I get such bad phasing issues that the recordings are in my opinion unusable.... which is why I went to the single mic approach.
There's an answer. People do it, I've heard their recordings, I've seen their youtube videos... The sound I want is out there, I just don't know how to get it.

I can get mixes I'm happy with by tracking guitar and voice separately, however the performance never feels as raw.

1 mic a few feet out should sound like someone sitting in that position... not like a telephone reciever sitting in that position with the listener in another country... no?

Am I just diluted?

 

[jhbrandt]

Luke,

You need to spend some time in Nashville, my friend. They REALLY know how to record 'natural' instruments. For the most part, sessions are done on 'tracking days' where they'll do basic tracks, i.e.; Drums, bass, piano, & guitar.. all at the same time. BUT - they are all mic'd separately and/or in their own booths for maximum separation. A vocal is recorded during tracking session and this vocal track is discarded later. After that, the overdubbing begins. The main vocal is usually done in a largish booth or in the main tracking room surrounded by gobos (best). These recordings are done to completely eliminate the 'room' from the vocal recording and they will, of course, use their very best microphone for the 'star'.

Have a real good listen to Allison Krauss & Union Station. Really good stuff. Recorded, mixed and mastered perfectly, IMO.

You CAN get recordings that feel REAL by tracking... It's all about the sync & feel. That's where the magic happens and where YOUR work begins. Enjoy the journey & don't try to re-invent the wheel. Most likely, whatever you are thinking of trying has already been done. There are no Silver Bullets or secret techniques. It's basically all about your; talent, effort, determination, blood, sweat, & tears, study, discipline, attention to detail, etc., etc., etc.

Cheers,
John

 

[mjbphotos]

That's why I added the SM7B, but even when I close mic everything, the individual tracks come out nice, but I get such bad phasing issues that the recordings are in my opinion unusable.... which is why I went to the single mic approach.
There's an answer. People do it, I've heard their recordings, I've seen their youtube videos... The sound I want is out there, I just don't know how to get it.

I don't know what 'phasing issues' you are mentioning - if you use directional dynamic mics, or setup gobos around each mic, that should eliminate any bleed issues.
You may find that some of those youtube videos you though were done with 1 mic are in fact lipsynched!

 

[demensia]

I don't know what 'phasing issues' you are mentioning - if you use directional dynamic mics, or setup gobos around each mic, that should eliminate any bleed issues.
You may find that some of those youtube videos you though were done with 1 mic are in fact lipsynched!

Comb filtering. The thin, boxy sound, far away sound... I also notice a very real kind of phasy... breathing like effect, like a flanger, probably from not remaining completely still playing the guitar part. It drives me insane.

I can get a pretty isolated vocal track if I use a dynamic mic, but generally end up with way too much vocal in the instrument mics... to the point where I'd have to raise the clean vocal track way too far to cover it up, and in general it just sounds weird and bad.

I may just have to give up, and overdub.
That's one expensive defeat.

 

[demensia]

Luke,

You need to spend some time in Nashville, my friend. They REALLY know how to record 'natural' instruments. For the most part, sessions are done on 'tracking days' where they'll do basic tracks, i.e.; Drums, bass, piano, & guitar.. all at the same time. BUT - they are all mic'd separately and/or in their own booths for maximum separation. A vocal is recorded during tracking session and this vocal track is discarded later. After that, the overdubbing begins. The main vocal is usually done in a largish booth or in the main tracking room surrounded by gobos (best). These recordings are done to completely eliminate the 'room' from the vocal recording and they will, of course, use their very best microphone for the 'star'.

Have a real good listen to Allison Krauss & Union Station. Really good stuff. Recorded, mixed and mastered perfectly, IMO.

You CAN get recordings that feel REAL by tracking... It's all about the sync & feel. That's where the magic happens and where YOUR work begins. Enjoy the journey & don't try to re-invent the wheel. Most likely, whatever you are thinking of trying has already been done. There are no Silver Bullets or secret techniques. It's basically all about your; talent, effort, determination, blood, sweat, & tears, study, discipline, attention to detail, etc., etc., etc.

Cheers,
John

Aye, this is very much the sound that I'm going for. Though less polished than Krauss. More like Gillian Welch and David Rawlings. or The Old Crow Medicine Show... I don't have a busy mix to level out the spectrum, so the acoustic guitar has to be full and natural sounding.

I tried making a booth of 4" 705 gobos and playing inside it, but... the results that way really aren't much better.

I suppose then, the room isn't the problem and I'm on the wrong path.

Thanks for everyone's help. I'll let this thread die and try again tomorrow.
I'll revive it again in a few years when I forget, and think the room must be the problem again.