Gear vs. Experience

[miroslav]

I would say that if one can't impress me (or anyone) with a recording made with an M-Audio interface and Cubase, they won't do it with Apogee and SSL either.

I seriously doubt that the "pros" (or anyone) use high-end gear just to impress you (or anyone).

For all the folks who don't find any value in using higher-end gear....they don't have to.

A Toyota and a Porsche will both get you from point A-to-B....they are equal in that regard.
Ahhhhh....but the ride....well, you can choose.

 

[DavidK]

For all the folks who don't find any value in using higher-end gear....they don't have to.

You really like putting words in people's mouths and twisting meanings, don't you? You've done it this entire thread, and not just to me.

Did I say anything like that? Did one person in this thread say anything like that? No. Not even close. Look man, it's blatantly obvious that you like salivating to pictures of the high-end stuff, which is your right. I"ll continue for others that read threads and actually are interested in learning something: throwing money at something isn't the answer. The Tascam/Fostex quote is spot on because it's 100% true. If a recording isn't happening, there's a 99.99% chance that it's a human problem, not a machine problem.

There are 280K+ posts in the mp3 clinic. With all those posts, maybe a handful tops say "you need new gear". It's not a fix to any problems. NOBODY, and I repeat: NOBODY is dissing pro gear or its value or what it can do yada yada. The only person who thinks they are= you, amigo. I know all about high end gear and have a megabucks violin to prove it. The violin I used to play (loaned to me) was $1.75 million dollars. Did it make me good? No, I did that myself by practicing my ass off and learning the craft. For most players, the megabucks violin wouldn't sound much better than a pawn shop violin since they don't know how to make either one of them sound good. Fact of life; If someone can't get a good recording with medium-level prosumer stuff, they won't get one with anything. Twist my words all you want, but it's the truth. If the music/engineering skills aren't developed first and foremost, the fancy gear gets high-fidelity recordings of crap, and that's 100% true.

My final comment for this thread:

Experience, talent, desire, motivation, hard work= 99%
Gear =1%

 

[moresound]

In all reality. One person should almost never pursue both.
If your gifted with performance talent - find someone with good gear. And vica versa.

Somehow the ending always turns out happier.

 

[miroslav]

World of Warcraft

 

[miroslav]

Twist my words all you want, but it's the truth.

You go on about how gear doesn't impress you...but then you don't like it when I say folks who don't want to use higher-end gear don't have too....
...huh???
How's that "twisting your words"?
If anything YOU are twisting my words.
Did I ever ONCE say that experience DOESN'T matter and that it's all about high-end gear????
No.

All I said was that if you want to bring up "pros" which is what YOU did...you can't deny the fact that they all use high-end gear for the most part.
That my friend, is a Fact of Life...that's the truth.

Now....all this other discussion about "well if you can't record with a ________ then you suck"....is a different discussion, and one that mainly happens on home-rec forums because folks want to feel good about what they are using and what they are doing.
I never once said you "can't" get good recordings with anything less than all "high-end" gear....(find it if I did)....
...I only said that high-end gear makes a difference.

Now...you want to go on and on trying to say that it doesn't make a difference or it shouldn't make a difference or whatever it is you are trying to say with your "I'm not impressed" remarks....that's fine, but at the end of it, you're still left with the reality that pro records "for the most part" come from pros using pro gear.
If you think they're just trying to "impress" us or whatever....and that gear really makes little difference to them........OK.

 

[miroslav]

In all reality. One person should almost never pursue both.
If your gifted with performance talent - find someone with good gear. And vica versa.

Somehow the ending always turns out happier.

I agree with you.

But the home-rec craze has turned everyone into a songwriter/performer/recording engineer/mastering engineer/marketing expert/record company/music distributor...etc...etc...
..and the problem is that many people DO believe that as long as they just work hard at it, they can overcome ALL of the obstacle and requirements that exist at the pro levels.

While I certainly believe in the "yes I can" approach, and I think everyone SHOULD work hard and give it their best shot....the reality is that it's not ALL just about that.

To once again use a car analogy....you can have an experienced F-1 driver, but he's not going to even get off the starting line without the right gear to back his experience. He may make a good show of it with some decent equipment, but when he has the right gear, then he really shines.

So...like someone mentioned earlier...it's not gear or experience...it's both.
Trying to minimize the value of one and then make up the difference with the other never really works....it only sounds good to say that it can.
Find ANY pro-level activity...sports, music, technology...etc, etc, etc...and experienced people in every field always try to use the best gear their activity requires.
That's not about trying to "impress" anyone...that's more about trying to do the best you can with the tools need.

 

[famous beagle]

I agree with you.

But the home-rec craze has turned everyone into a songwriter/performer/recording engineer/mastering engineer/marketing expert/record company/music distributor...etc...etc...
..and the problem is that many people DO believe that as long as they just work hard at it, they can overcome ALL of the obstacle and requirements that exist at the pro levels.

While I certainly believe in the "yes I can" approach, and I think everyone SHOULD work hard and give it their best shot....the reality is that it's not ALL just about that.

To once again use a car analogy....you can have an experienced F-1 driver, but he's not going to even get off the starting line without the right gear to back his experience. He may make a good show of it with some decent equipment, but when he has the right gear, then he really shines.

So...like someone mentioned earlier...it's not gear or experience...it's both.
Trying to minimize the value of one and then make up the difference with the other never really works....it only sounds good to say that it can.
Find ANY pro-level activity...sports, music, technology...etc, etc, etc...and experienced people in every field always try to use the best gear their activity requires.
That's not about trying to "impress" anyone...that's more about trying to do the best you can with the tools need.

I agree with all this. Somehow this thread seems to have derailed into an either-or debate. Originally I was trying to define the gray area between what is enough gear to get the job done with the right experience.

I mean ... pro studios have a seemingly infinite list of gear, but that's certainly not all needed. Most of that is for variety of options (i.e., different specialized mics or preamps, etc.) or the need/ability to record a whole bunch of shit at once really well with relatively little trouble. But for home recorders, only a fraction of that list would really be required or even practical.

And the law of diminishing returns certainly begins to apply with gear. There may be a noticeable difference between a $100 LDC mic and a $500 one. But the difference between a $1000 and a $2000 would be much less drastic. Same goes for pres, compressors, instruments, etc.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that most pro engineers don't start out on cheap equipment. I don't know that I'd say most. I've certainly read plenty of stories from engineers recalling their early days with budget gear.

You mentioned a sports analogy involving race cars. I'm not a racer, nor do I follow racing, so I'm not all that knowledgeable about that. I do play tennis though.

If you gave a $20 budget racquet to the #1 player in the world and put him against an average player with a $5,000 racuqet, it would be no contest. The #1 player will destroy him. However, could the #1 player still compete at the pro level with that racquet? Absolutely! He certainly wouldn't want to, because he'd want all the advantages that a pro racquet could offer, but he could make a go of it for sure.

I for one think we would all be very surprised to hear what a pro engineer could do with the stuff I have. And I think you would be blown away by what a pro could do with your stuff. You obviously have much better gear than I do, but are you able to make fully-professional sounding recordings? (I'm sincerely asking because I don't know.)

 

[miroslav]

I for one think we would all be very surprised to hear what a pro engineer could do with the stuff I have. And I think you would be blown away by what a pro could do with your stuff. You obviously have much better gear than I do, but are you able to make fully-professional sounding recordings? (I'm sincerely asking because I don't know.)

I'm sure a George Massenburg or Al Schmitt could do a LOT more with your gear and my gear!
Not sure if they would want to.


AFA me making "fully-professional recordings" with my gear....?
Hey...ain't that what we are all trying to do?

I will say this, over the years as I've upgraded and updated my gear, I certainly HAVE heard sonic/quality improvements. I certainly DID hear a sonic/quality difference between my $100 mic and my $1000 mic....and same thing goes with my pres and comps and anything else.
Did the $1000 mic turn my vocals into "Sinatra reborn"....no, but I could hear improvements.

That's not saying someone can't use a $100 mic and still end up with a nice sounding vocal on their recording...but yeah, it's good to have options and different flavors and you can decide what you prefer to use for yourself.
What kinda annoys me a bit is when you get, say...some newb who only has a $100 mic and $100 pre, and a free copy of Audacity....and they've NEVER used or heard any higher-quality gear...and then they will argue with you forever about how that higher-end gear is just hype and not really needed.
I'm not suggesting anyone in this thread falls into that category...but there certainly has been a little bit of that here....the pooh-poohing of high-end gear....which I find mostly amusing, and why I said if anyone feels there is no value in spending money on better gear....they don't need to.

Anyway...besides my gear upgrades, I also feel that my recording chops have also improved over the years, so yeah, the experience part kicks in. But I gotta wonder how much my experience would have kicked in if I was still just using the 4-track tape recorded and couple of gig mics that I started with way back....???

I don't do a lot of outside recording...maybe once in awhile, mostly for friends....so I have no one to impress. I buy as best as I can, and I don't just by "expensive" gear to gloat at and drool over....I buy what I know will help squeeze that extra 5-10-20% of quality out of my work, and as many people will tell you, the first 80% is easy, it's that last bit that is hard and comes in small steps, but often what makes a big difference.
That's all I'm trying to do...squeeze out every bit of quality I can, and the gear matters, IMO.

 

[cobaltaudio]

For sake of argument, let's say we need an acoustic guitar recorded.
If you were to put the whole of Abbey Road Studios at the disposal of a novice, and left a seasoned pro in your front room with a pair of something like AT4040's and a CD recorder, who would you expect to make the better recording?

I reckon the pro would be hard to beat, and it would have to just be sheer fluke to make it otherwise.

 

[miroslav]

For the sake of argument...

If you were to put a pro in Abbey Road Studios to record acoustic guitar....
...and then he came over to someone's bedroom studio to record the same thing...
...where do you think the more "pro" results would come from?



Why does it all have to turn into a "pro" with newb gear VS a newb with "pro" gear....???
That's a silly comparison that rarely occurs in reality.

Pros use pro gear (hmmmmm, must be a reason for that...ya think?)
Home-rec newbs mostly use inexpensive gear....but after awhile...some of the home-rec guys start to upgrade, and improve their rigs.
Hmmmm, I wonder why they do that if the inexpensive gear they had as newbs should be "good enough"....just add experience, right...?

PS....
Check you sig links....one of them is not right.

 

[famous beagle]

Home-rec newbs mostly use inexpensive gear....but after awhile...some of the home-rec guys start to upgrade, and improve their rigs.
Hmmmm, I wonder why they do that if the inexpensive gear they had as newbs should be "good enough"....just add experience, right...?

No one's arguing that better gear doesn't usually sound better. But, IMHO, I think you're overestimating the gear aspect and underestimating the experience factor.

I was curious, so I searched and found a few tunes that you've posted in the mp3. To make sure I wasn't biased in any way, I didn't read anything about the gear or what anyone else had said in the comments. I didn't know anything about your rig (other than the fact that you said you've invested a lot in your studio) before listening. (To be honest, I was kind of shocked to read that it was a 2" Otari machine!)

I checked out a tune called "La Luna Pasa" and one called "Not Fade Away."

I say this not out of spite or bitterness or anything, but it's simply my true opinion as it relates to the point at hand.

My impression was that they sounded nice, but not spectacular. They definitely sounded home-recorded and contained many of the issues that most recordings I hear on this site do (mine included for sure!). And if someone would have told me that they recorded them with a $100 mic and Audacity, I would have believed them without a second thought.

This is just my opinion, of course, and others may feel differently. For example, obviously you and David (I think it was) nitpicked Midlake's song to pieces, whereas I thought it sounded great and didn't question its professional-ness at all. The first time I heard the song was actually in a supermarket (of all places), and it just struck me as a nice song among the stream of other songs playing there. I was quite surprised to find out it was Midlake and then even more so to hear how they did it all.

 

[cobaltaudio]

Why does it all have to turn into a "pro" with newb gear VS a newb with "pro" gear....???
That's a silly comparison that rarely occurs in reality.

I said that because the original question was experience vs equipment. What other comparison could you make?

Pros use pro gear (hmmmmm, must be a reason for that...ya think?)

One of the best engineers I ever met makes a point of buying all his mics as cheapo knock-offs from china, then plays around with them in his front room until he finds the perfect application for them. He makes amazing sounding records.
That's what made me think of the newb + abbey road vs pro at home.

My point was that without the experience - the plush equipment is pointless.

p.s. thanks for pointing out the signature link - I updated it yesterday and apparently can't cut & paste

 

[miroslav]

No...I don't underestimate experience, not as much as people here underestimate good equipment.

The fact that pros primarily use high-end pro gear suggests that....it is only when you start to acquire more experience can you begin to appreciate the higher-end gear.

AFA my stuff on this site...
The song you refernece...La Luna Pasa was the very first outing with my Otari 2" with I acquired a few months ago and it was really a "test" recording to put the Otari through its paces. There was no editing, no DAW involved, just a bunch of tracks recorded in a few passes and then mixed in one pass off the Otari...and nothing in the way of mastering or polish ( I think I might have stated that in the thread where you found the MP3.)

I am just now starting to track more formal stuff to the Otari, and will be putting out a new album hopefully by the end of this year.
Anything else you might have found here or even on my website...is older stuff, and most of the MP3 things posted here are one-step mixes and not many "finished mixes".

But none of that is relative to the discussion...what I or you do with out equipment isn't a de-facto standard that can be applied to everyone in every situation.
We are talking about gear in general, and discussing what we do and use VS what pros do and use.
If I ever claimed that my stuff was top pro level because of my gear....then that would be different, but I don't think I suggested that anywhere, quite the contrary, I said we are all just striving to get to that point.

Not to mentoin....I've not heard anything on these forums from anyone yet that I would consider "spectacular"...and that includes my own stuff. That's why I found it amusing when some folks are talking about being "impressed".
Lets face it....it's a very subjective thing for everyone.

 

[cobaltaudio]

We are ... discussing what we do and use VS what pros do and use.

I wish I'd thought of it like that before my original polarized comment.
It really wasn't a useful 'real world' comparison. You're right.

Thanks!

 

[miroslav]

My point was that without the experience - the plush equipment is pointless.

I was pretty much in agreement with that early on.

I've only been saying that pro equipment has more of a purpose than just to "impress" and be drooled over...as some have suggested.
It wasn't intended as some "elitist" position about gear...and lord knows, I don't consider my studio rig even close to a true high-end pro studio setup...but I have some decent pieces here-n-there, and I do appreciate the better stuff, but still use my $100 gear too.

 

[DavidK]

you're still left with the reality that pro records "for the most part" come from pros using pro gear.
If you think they're just trying to "impress" us or whatever....and that gear really makes little difference to them........OK.

Oy. Once again, you have this Chicken/egg/"which came first" thang goin on. Of COURSE pros use pro gear, why in the world wouldn't they? And what does that have to do with this thread? The thread is "Gear vs. Experience". The answer: It ain't the gear. If you think it is the gear, I can only think of one response: BWAHAAHAA! Go up to a famed engineer and say "Boy, that SSL got a great mix!" and they might take a swing at you. The engineer got the great mix.

Miroslav- I had to learn the hard way, here's some backstory: About 6 years ago I hired someone to mix an album. He had the best stuff in town: SSL, Chandler, Neumann, PT (the whole shebang), Neve, the works. He was like King Midas, but instead of touching things and turning them to gold, everything he touched turned to shiat. Dumbest. Mistake. Ever on my part. I hired him solely because he owned the cool toys. He was anti-talented. He could run something through a high end piece of gear and it would end up much, much worse. It was the biggest learning experience I think I've ever had- it aint the gear. If I get a time machine, I'm going back and hiring someone very talented with Behringer gear. Not the "passable" Behri gear, the noisiest, crappiest, lousiest gear they ever made. I'd get a waaay better mix. ( I threw the guy's mix away).

Nowadays, I sometimes contract players for shows, rock shows etc. I've never, ever asked a person what kind of axe they own. I've been a pro player for 30 years, 95% of the people I know are pro players. They will own the tools to get the job done and done well, I've never had a problem. The same goes for audio: If I need to hire someone for audio work, I won't ask them what they have (unless it's more of a fun chat). Trust me, I will check out their resume and recordings as thoroughly as possible. What they use is up to them- if they have midrange stuff, I have no doubt they will do a topflight job. If they have fancypants stuff, good for them. I am only interested in hiring them, and their talent and skills.

It's a total myth that pros constantly have to have the latest and greatest. Paul Shaffer uses his trusty Kurzweil K250 ( a dinosaur from the 80s), an old Vox Continental, and a small Mackie mixer in concert. He's one of the most dedicated and serious musicians I've worked with and has the budget to buy whatever, he uses what he needs. Mannheim Steamroller uses keyboards and other gear that's 20 years old. They still sell out their shows and it's great sound. Sinatra used his trusty SM58 in concert until he died in 98, Willie Nelson uses his guitar with a big hole in it.

PS- Miroslav, I'm enjoying this thread. We obviously disagree but I appreciate you keeping it civil and it makes for interesting conversation.

 

[miroslav]

I've heard your type of "hard luck" story a few times before....great studio, engineer with credentials, end-product sucked.
I actually had a band come to me with that one time for a song they did in a pro studio. We re-recorded with my limited rig, and they liked it better.

OK...it happens, but in your scenario, would that same engineer have done any better with lo-fi gear...?
No.

Still...that's not the point here. You are using one example 'cuz it happened to you...and from that coming to a conclusion that "gear doesn't matter"......huh?

Yes, I'm glad you agree that pros use pro gear, and most do end up with a pro product.
All I've been saying is that there is a reason they use pro gear that goes beyond "impressing" anyone (though I'm sure pro clients expect to see pro gear too).
They use it because it DOES make a difference if you want/need that final 10%-20% of quality.

The other arguments...that it doesn't matter 'cuz the public won't notice....or...that there's a lot of good home-rec music done with less....is all irrelevant to this conversation.

Yes, this thread is about experience and gear.
Pros have the experience AND they use pro gear....there is a correlation.
You can chose to minimize that connection it if that works better for you, and use what gear you prefer.

 

[DavidK]

Pros have the experience AND they use pro gear....there is a correlation.

Allow me to invite you to the actual, real world for a minute:

The gear is all over the map. I'm not saying that because I read it in a magazine. I'm saying it because I do it every day for a living. Yes, Styx, REM, Depeche Mode, Steamroller, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Vince Gill, Jimmy Page, Ronnie Wood, ELO, Joe Perry, Jeff Beck, Smokey Robinson, Brian Wilson, TSO, on and on- played with em all. Some famous guys show up with a beat up guitar and a Zoom effects box, others like Page show up with 10+ guitars, every effect known to man and a guitar tech. Ray Charles used an electric that was so crappy it barely stayed powered. Half the "pianos" on stage at a big show are cardboard cutouts with an old, mid-level synth stuck in there. Light in the Piazza- major $$ Broadway show- the wiring was so cheap in the pit that the circuit blew and the pit went black. Someone kicked open the pit door so we had a lil light coming in to read the charts and finish the act. The Rock Hall Inductions used IEMs for the players that cost about 50 cents, half the music world was in the audience. TSO had NO monitors for the string section, none. Wouldn't spend $200 for a show that's been playing arenas for years.

Recording: made a classical one a few weeks back. Remote recording, the guy used lil cheapo monitors like Samson or Roland (and this guy knows his stuff better than anybody), union recording- big bucks. Made one about 8 years ago (I've made 65) where the guy was still using a Tascam DA-88. This was for Deutsche Grammophon, probably the most elite label in music history.

There's a Bugs Bunny Show that tours with symphony, they show the cartoons on big-screen and the symphony plays the soundtrack live. It's a huge show that has toured for twenty years and plays the biggest and best venues in the world- Hollywood Bowl, Ravinia, Sydney Opera House, you name it. Ya know what kind of fancy machinery operates the film? A VHS. It's not even a good one, I'm pretty sure it's a Sanyo. Ya know how they automate this amazing machinery? A guy backstage presses "play" and "stop". I can't imagine how many millions and millions this show has made. 10K people sitting out there, and the show is run by a guy with a Sanyo VHS they bought at Walmart. THIS is the real world. The picture you see on the front of Mix magazine is a very miniscule percentage of the actual, real-world music biz.

 

[miroslav]

Now you're going way off tangent...now you're talking about the music "biz" and artists, not gear and recording...which is another animal and where image supersedes everything else.

I don't disagree that the number of people who are interested in high-end gear and who use it or who try to get to that level is a small number compared to the general listening public who wouldn't know even an SM57 from a crayon...
...and then there's all the many other layers of the music *biz*...which don't directly have ANYTHING to do with audio engineering...
...but when I do look at what the real engineers, like Massenburg, Chicarelli, Parsons, Cherney, (I could go on for awhile) are using as their tools (and those ain't just "cardboard cutouts")...that's where I get my gear perspectives from and where I would like to at least set my quality bar (even if I never get there).
The last thing I want to be doing is wondering if my gear is cutting it...and let's face it, isn't that what this thread is really about...people wondering?

If it feels easier to lower the gear bar....you can roll with that, though all those big names you played with (post up some clips, I'm sure everyone would love to hear them), they most likely tracked in some serious studios during their careers.
Anyway...I'm going to stick to my gear views and you and others can stick to yours....so no point in keeping this going any further. Experience is key....but gear also matters. That's it.

Enjoy your weekend...I'm recording the next couple of days, and as much as I like playing thread tennis...I'll have more fun in my studio.

 

[DavidK]

Enjoy your weekend...)

You too. I'll be writing Symphony charts and trying not to freeze to death.