Worth a Pre-amp upgrade?

[BeniRose]

DITTO.

The key thing IMO is your style of music....it fits your rig and vice versa.
Yeah, better quality gear is always going to help, but with the somewhat raw flavor of Americana Rock music...I don't think that super polishing your tracks is going to add a heck of a lot...or better yet, NOT super polishing will not take away a lot from that style of music. That style is more about arrangements and performances, IMO.

So just keep tweaking the recording and add the better gear when possible, but no need to feel bad not having it.
Your stuff sounds good.

Yeah, I'm feeling that. I definitely agree the style of music fits my capabilities just fine. Of course I'd love this to sound as crisp and clear as a Tom Waits album or even that Willy Mason album (damn this is good!), but we all know that's not going to happen in a project studio (especially a digital one).

I actually just recently got into this style with my current band a year and a half ago, and before this wanted to more produced modern rock recording. But I'm really enjoying it and just wish I had more time to record!

 

[miroslav]

I actually just recently got into this style with my current band a year and a half ago, and before this wanted to more produced modern rock recording. But I'm really enjoying it and just wish I had more time to record!

I'm trying to get away from the over-production...but--I--just--can't--seem--to--stop.

My problem is that I record almost all my tracks by myself, and it's hard to get that multi-person band vibe...so the production becomes my friend...my drug.
I don't go insane with tracks (rarely over 24 even in the DAW)...but in the DAW the ability to edit, polish...and really mess with the production is a real hook.
Been working on some new tracks though, and doing a lot of tracking to 2" tape...so I'm going to see how that pans out, but then, I don't stick to one style either, and I tend to bounce around with whatever mood I'm in.

What you got going...like the "Nurse Mary Jean" song and a couple of others....it's working, so don't mess it up with too much more production.

 

[miroslav]

Hey...I also wanted to ask you about your EP...."Dark Corner".
It appears you did it before "Nurse Mary Jean" and "Rumble and Roar" tracks...and that you did it in a pro studio (Morning Star Studios).

So how do you feel about the stuff done there VS what you are doing now in your project studio?

 

[Justsomeguy]

This was the short version of the very long answer I got at the other thread

yeah i know, i was trying to avoid saying it as i know what you mean and understand that your not some utter n00b and wanted straighter answers (which i hope i gave earlier). It always worth baring in mind though (tbh, mic's are my main gear lust weakness).

And, again, i know what you mean when you say about fighting general muddiness and, as chuffyduck said, it may just come down to mixing/eq/compression etc. tbh, i had a read of the blog on your site and had a look at the Logic mixer window screen shot and some of the things surprised me a little, i.e the two drum buses (i'm guessing for parallel compression?), the stereo spreaders on the vocals (which i assumed were mono?) and a lot of limiters (although that's just my opinion and they may not actually be working that hard). As i said, the mix sounded good to my ears but if you think there's some muddiness it may be some of these things. For example, if the the two drum busses are for parallel compression, why not just use one and set the wet/dry mix of the compressor to 50/50 or less?

Also, if you're mixing in the box, have you thought about picking up some extra plugins? there's nothing innately wrong with the stock logic ones (they're better than most stock plugins IMO) but there's a whole world of other, and sometimes better/more appropriate, plugins out there. Plus, as some are free/you can trial the majority of them, it's often easier to make choices about what does and doesn't work for you before having to spend your hard earned cash

I know that's nothing to do with preamps and helping solve the "what preamps under $200 a channel to get when i get an Apogee Ensemble" question but, as we've all said, there's nothing wrong with your rig as is, the mixes are good, and it's just advice on how to help if you feel your mixes are muddy

 

[Justsomeguy]

Willy Mason album (damn this is good!)

He is rather good, and still so chuffing young! I saw him when he was 19 when he supported Ben Kweller over here and he blew me away.

 

[BeniRose]

yeah i know, i was trying to avoid saying it as i know what you mean and understand that your not some utter n00b and wanted straighter answers (which i hope i gave earlier). It always worth baring in mind though (tbh, mic's are my main gear lust weakness).

Yeah man, I have a mic weakness too, but for some reason pre's are what get me because there's so many bloody options out there! And thanks for the compliment of non-n00b hood, I guess there are still parts of this I am a noob in though.

And, again, i know what you mean when you say about fighting general muddiness and, as chuffyduck said, it may just come down to mixing/eq/compression etc. tbh, i had a read of the blog on your site and had a look at the Logic mixer window screen shot and some of the things surprised me a little, i.e the two drum buses (i'm guessing for parallel compression?), the stereo spreaders on the vocals (which i assumed were mono?) and a lot of limiters (although that's just my opinion and they may not actually be working that hard). As i said, the mix sounded good to my ears but if you think there's some muddiness it may be some of these things. For example, if the the two drum busses are for parallel compression, why not just use one and set the wet/dry mix of the compressor to 50/50 or less?

Yeah, I probably have a bit to learn there as well. I actually had three drum busses, one that most of the drum tracks were sent to, which had a convolution reverb on it at 100% wet. I then mixed this in as if it were a room mic. The other two were for parallel compression, I had one super light compressor on one channel and an "opto squeeze" on another. I suppose I could've tried using the wet/dry, tbh, I forgot that setting was in there!

As for the limiters, that's something I recently started doing and I'm not convinced it works, but when I accidentally put a limiter on my kick and snare, they sat at the front of the track like I've always wanted my kick and snare to do (like most modern music does it) and I've never been able to do (as you can read in yet ANOTHER one of my recent threads!). I'm not 100% convinced it's the correct thing to do, in fact I'm sure it's not, but it worked for that mix so I did it. The compressor smoothed it out and the limiter brought it to the front.

Also, if you're mixing in the box, have you thought about picking up some extra plugins? there's nothing innately wrong with the stock logic ones (they're better than most stock plugins IMO) but there's a whole world of other, and sometimes better/more appropriate, plugins out there. Plus, as some are free/you can trial the majority of them, it's often easier to make choices about what does and doesn't work for you before having to spend your hard earned cash

This is something I have been eyeing for a while now as well, but just don't know what's going to sound good. Of course I'd love some UAD plugins because I'm sure they sound amazing, but that thing costs so much money!! And I'm never sure if the plugins would really be that much better than Logic's plugins, or if that's another area I might just be fooling myself ("if I only had better plugins, my mix would sound better"). I would definitely be interested in checking some out, especially a good channel strip plugin, any recommendations?

I know that's nothing to do with preamps and helping solve the "what preamps under $200 a channel to get when i get an Apogee Ensemble" question but, as we've all said, there's nothing wrong with your rig as is, the mixes are good, and it's just advice on how to help if you feel your mixes are muddy

No that was definitely good advice, I think I've gotten plenty of response to both concerns. Thanks so much guys!

 

[BeniRose]

Also, if you're mixing in the box, have you thought about picking up some extra plugins? there's nothing innately wrong with the stock logic ones (they're better than most stock plugins IMO) but there's a whole world of other, and sometimes better/more appropriate, plugins out there. Plus, as some are free/you can trial the majority of them, it's often easier to make choices about what does and doesn't work for you before having to spend your hard earned cash

I've always had my eye on that Focusrite LiquidMix, especially since I wish I had a tactile device for my EQ and compressor, but could never decide if A) it was any good or B) would even run well on my computer daisy chained through my interface.

 

[BeniRose]

Hey...I also wanted to ask you about your EP...."Dark Corner".
It appears you did it before "Nurse Mary Jean" and "Rumble and Roar" tracks...and that you did it in a pro studio (Morning Star Studios).

So how do you feel about the stuff done there VS what you are doing now in your project studio?

Yeah, well obviously he was way more experience and way better gear than I do, so I think it sounds much clearer and professional but I also think his mixing style was a bit different than what I did. He was following a tone guide that was quite different from how we're mixing now. The mixing style on Dark Corner is much more of a puzzle piece style to me where each instrument has it's tone and frequency range, where as I tend to have much more cross over in my recordings. That's the best way I've been able to describe it at least. I'm actually not on that album, I joined the band shortly after it was recorded!

Actually, we will find out how the quality stacks up, because I'm recording 6 more tracks at my place, taking those 4 tracks from "Dark Corner", and we're remixing them all (possibly with the same guy) to be put on an LP together! So far I've only tracked drums, but they're sounding really fantastic, so I think I might have a decent shot.

 

[Justsomeguy]

I've always had my eye on that Focusrite LiquidMix, especially since I wish I had a tactile device for my EQ and compressor, but could never decide if A) it was any good or B) would even run well on my computer daisy chained through my interface.

*working up the page to respond*

yeah, i've been tempted but have always though that for the price i'd rather get one or two little bits of "real" outboard (i do love the tactile element of real knobs). A friend of mine uses one and swears by it but he's also got a lot of cool outboard so i don't know how much he really uses it.

the "if i had better plugins" question hits everyone working with a DAW at some point and the answer is often yes and no. it's not going to instantly make you mixes better but it does open up more or different available tools to get the job done. With some mixes (mainly the ones that need almost salvaging!) i quite like using the stock logic ones to start with as they cover a lot of bases and i'm fairly competent with them and, once i'm at a point where things start to sound balanced/cleaner etc i may swap one or two plugs for third party ones for "flavour". If i'm working on something that was recorded well and pretty much falls togther i usually just go straight for the plugins i know will work. As i've said before, i try not to think of other plugins as better or worse than logic's stock ones, but purely as extra tools for the job Also, as i said, a lot of plugins nowadays have a trial period with no limitations to the plugin (some do, which sucks) so it's always worth trying stuff and seeing how it goes, although it's usually best to wait until you know you've got the time to try them

I'm a sucker for most things focusrite and can't stop singing the praises of their Midnight suite plugins; one EQ and one Compressor for £79 (works out at £39.50 a plugin, that's CHEAP!). In the higher end, the waves plugs obviously get a lot of praise but the packs are fairly pricey. I'm still really digging the DDMF 6144 eq (based on the Portico 5033 EQ).

For that tactile element (and in an attempt to get a better sound) i bought the FMR RNC, an ISA220 (which wasn't cheap but soooooooooo worth it), an Alesis Microverb (the original one) and a friend DIY'd me a sonic maximizer clone, and i'm now looking for a stereo EQ for my rack and the RNLA. A lot of the time i stay ITB, but for some things i run them OTB for some processing and record them back in. Could i get the same sound just ITB; probably, but whether it's all in my head or not, the stuff i run through the outboard sounds more 3D to my ears and because i'm forced to use my ears when OTB rather than looking at EQ's in logic the results are often better.

yep, i did see the other drum buss but assumed it was the kinda "fake drum room" effect. The limiter thing is more just my preference i suppose as there's no right or wrong way to do anything musical. I sometimes sling them on kicks and snare if the compressor doesn't do the job (or is there, as you said, just to balance), and i agree that it does give that big, punchy, in yo' face drum sound but it was more the limiter on the vocals that got me.

tbh, the extra menu on the logic compressor (and some of the other stock plugins) is one of logics best kept secrets. I only found out about it by accident on a forum somewhere and it changed my view/usability of alot of the stock logic plugins. the "wet/dry" mix and "output distortion" options as well as the different circuit types on the logic compressor really opened up a whole new world of flavours.

meh, if you are a n00b (which i don't think you are, especially by the standards of regular n00bs) you have a solid understanding of what you're doing, why you're doing it, and a desire to learn how to do it better. I'm sure we're all n00bs in some aspects of HR. hell, as HR's we tend to be jack-of-all-trades in the studio because we have to be and thats A LOT to learn. My n00bish area is mastering

 

[BeniRose]

*working up the page to respond*

yeah, i've been tempted but have always though that for the price i'd rather get one or two little bits of "real" outboard (i do love the tactile element of real knobs). A friend of mine uses one and swears by it but he's also got a lot of cool outboard so i don't know how much he really uses it.

the "if i had better plugins" question hits everyone working with a DAW at some point and the answer is often yes and no. it's not going to instantly make you mixes better but it does open up more or different available tools to get the job done. With some mixes (mainly the ones that need almost salvaging!) i quite like using the stock logic ones to start with as they cover a lot of bases and i'm fairly competent with them and, once i'm at a point where things start to sound balanced/cleaner etc i may swap one or two plugs for third party ones for "flavour". If i'm working on something that was recorded well and pretty much falls togther i usually just go straight for the plugins i know will work. As i've said before, i try not to think of other plugins as better or worse than logic's stock ones, but purely as extra tools for the job Also, as i said, a lot of plugins nowadays have a trial period with no limitations to the plugin (some do, which sucks) so it's always worth trying stuff and seeing how it goes, although it's usually best to wait until you know you've got the time to try them

I'm a sucker for most things focusrite and can't stop singing the praises of their Midnight suite plugins; one EQ and one Compressor for £79 (works out at £39.50 a plugin, that's CHEAP!). In the higher end, the waves plugs obviously get a lot of praise but the packs are fairly pricey. I'm still really digging the DDMF 6144 eq (based on the Portico 5033 EQ).

For that tactile element (and in an attempt to get a better sound) i bought the FMR RNC, an ISA220 (which wasn't cheap but soooooooooo worth it), an Alesis Microverb (the original one) and a friend DIY'd me a sonic maximizer clone, and i'm now looking for a stereo EQ for my rack and the RNLA. A lot of the time i stay ITB, but for some things i run them OTB for some processing and record them back in. Could i get the same sound just ITB; probably, but whether it's all in my head or not, the stuff i run through the outboard sounds more 3D to my ears and because i'm forced to use my ears when OTB rather than looking at EQ's in logic the results are often better.

yep, i did see the other drum buss but assumed it was the kinda "fake drum room" effect. The limiter thing is more just my preference i suppose as there's no right or wrong way to do anything musical. I sometimes sling them on kicks and snare if the compressor doesn't do the job (or is there, as you said, just to balance), and i agree that it does give that big, punchy, in yo' face drum sound but it was more the limiter on the vocals that got me.

tbh, the extra menu on the logic compressor (and some of the other stock plugins) is one of logics best kept secrets. I only found out about it by accident on a forum somewhere and it changed my view/usability of alot of the stock logic plugins. the "wet/dry" mix and "output distortion" options as well as the different circuit types on the logic compressor really opened up a whole new world of flavours.

meh, if you are a n00b (which i don't think you are, especially by the standards of regular n00bs) you have a solid understanding of what you're doing, why you're doing it, and a desire to learn how to do it better. I'm sure we're all n00bs in some aspects of HR. hell, as HR's we tend to be jack-of-all-trades in the studio because we have to be and thats A LOT to learn. My n00bish area is mastering

Yeah, my Saffire actually came with some plugins that I've always wanted to use but never have because it would slow me down, and I just don't get time to experiment. To be honest, I might be dreaming with the tactile stuff, because it's usually just faster for me to use a mouse, even if using my hands will provide a more honest mix. I'll definitely check out that midnight plug pack. Waves does have some pretty cheap bundles: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Musician2Nat/

I am very into most of what focusrite does, but ever since Novation bought them out I can't help but feel like their quality has gone down. That's why I'm glad I got one of the old Saffires. I might be wrong though.

 

[BeniRose]

Ordered those midnight plugs last night but still waiting for a freaking download! Got some deal for $50 on Alto Music but I still haven't gotten the follow up e-mail with the download instructions. Hope I wasn't had

 

[BeniRose]

Hey, even better news (sorry I keep posting to this mostly answered thread)! I realized once I manage to make the upgrade to an Apogee Ensemble, it's not imperative that I buy extra pre-amps, because Ihave the Saffire, which will work in standalone mode to shoot the analog ins through lightpipe to the Ensemble. I realize this mean they won't be getting the amazing conversion I will have just paid for, but I wanted to get a lightpipe box down the line anyways to expand my channel count, so that will work out perfectly!

 

[Justsomeguy]

Ordered those midnight plugs last night but still waiting for a freaking download! Got some deal for $50 on Alto Music but I still haven't gotten the follow up e-mail with the download instructions. Hope I wasn't had

lol, i hope you've not been had. just fire off an email if you've not heard anything by the end of the day did you get a chance to try them out?

that's cool man, i didn't realise the saffire would run in standalone mode but, come to think of it, thats how you can cascade them together with other saffires with the lightpipe.... and now it all makes more sense (i know you can daisy chain them via firewire to one another but hadn't thought about the digital outputs on them)

it's always worth adding another preamp or two because..... well..... just because oh, and as you said, to make the most of the sweet converters in the apogee stuff

and thanks to this thread i've been gear lusting over the GAP pre and eq for the past couple of days. Why don't they ever seem to come up used on ebay!?!

 

[ecc83]

Before anyone spends 100s of ££s on a new pre amp they should spend five on the October copy of Sound on Sound.

Dave.

 

[Rod Norman]

From the sound of things I noticed two hints to your answer.
1- You didn't say that you were unhappy with your Saffire's performance.
2- Everyone is telling you that your pre's are decent.
The only upgrade I might recommend is to step all the way up to the GML 202 single channel unit. George Massenburg built the original boards that every engineer drools over and designed the pre-amps in them. The unit is $2000 so you might need more than one but if you're just looking for one for clean vocals, I'd go there. Anything else would be a baby step up. The actual issue might be your recording chain; the settings that you use one each step running from the initial input to the recording device. Make sure that you place a good meter at each step of the chain to monitor your input settings. (You only need one meter. Just apply it at each stage) Once your know your inputs are hot enough but not too ht, then record the settings in your recording engineer's notebook (You do have one, dont you?) and then test it out to make sure you're not getting any artifacts from the cords. If you do, replace all the cords with new ones and try again. (Most problems lie in the cords, not the unit's performance Cords wear out, especially when they get stepped on.) I've done live recording through an old Peavy 6x2 board from the 80's and the signal was so clear we couldn't hear a thing but air on a recording of a quiet jazz singer. Go figure. You ARE right that the pre-amps are the secret to great recording, but so is the recording chain, the cords, the source material, the mic, the electronics in the instrument, and the thickness of the crust on your pizza. I hope this helped. I got all my initial guidance from great engineers I worked with in the studio and I buiot the first home revording studio in New York City. It was an eight track with Digital Performer as my orchestra midi consolidator. Any other set-up before that in NYC was a recording unit, n9ot a real studio. I built mine into a wall unit with pull out keyboards and I used Dolby noise reduction units to compress and expand the noise floor. I now run through a monster tower and use Pro Tools and Adobe Premium Production Suite. I think you can save your money for now. Any step up would not really improve the quality enough to make a good "bang-for-the-buck" difference. It would be different if your were recording through an old Sun blard or lacked any in-line pre's. But I think you should be fine the way your are. Just check that recording chain.
Rod Norman,
We all struggled with this problem at one time or another.

 

[BeniRose]

Before anyone spends 100s of ££s on a new pre amp they should spend five on the October copy of Sound on Sound.

Dave.

Will do! Does Barnes and Noble still carry SoS in the states?

I really appreciate everyone's said here, definitely made me want to keep at it with what i have and just try to get more bands through and perfect my craft. I've also managed to (hopefully) land an internship with a great studio in the area come November. I think that's really going to make the world of difference in my recordings, once I'm able to take the knowledge from a great engineer and real life sessions and put them to use.

I've also been reading up on those new Midas Venice F consoles, looking at the 24 channel ones. Would love to get out of the box and that might be a great way to do it! Would cost just as much (if not less) than upgrading to Apogee, getting pre-amps, getting a Mackie Control Universal, Analogue Summing box, etc! It's all down the road, so at this point I'm just going to focus on getting some bands through here and learning from that, as well as my internship. If I come across money, I might get that GAP pre or an ISA, but I'm not in a rush.

Oh and I got those plugs just fine a few days later, just haven't had a chance to try them out yet!

Thanks again guys, for all the kind words and advice!

 

[BeniRose]

Oh, one more thing I was thinking of was recording at 96k rather than the 44.1 I usually do. Although the sample rate effects the frequency range and not the NTS ratio, so I don't think would clean up my signal anymore, and I'm already recording at 24 bits.

 

[ecc83]

Oh, one more thing I was thinking of was recording at 96k rather than the 44.1 I usually do. Although the sample rate effects the frequency range and not the NTS ratio, so I don't think would clean up my signal anymore, and I'm already recording at 24 bits.

24bits yes. 96kHz is a very hot potato! Most of the top "studio" people I respect say there is no advantage at all and only use higher than 44.1kHz on client insistance.

If you cannot get the paper magazine you can buy a .pdf of the article (about a $ I think). But having read it, FCS do not go into that studio and question their choice of pre amps and quote chunks of the SoS findings!

The article is VERY interesting and probably the best pre amp test (they do NOT like it to be called a "shootout"!) that has ever been done but it is ONE series of tests with ONE sound source and in any case the results are not yet all in so keep shtumn, they will be VERY emotionally (and fiscally) attached to their Neves and SSLs!

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

24bits yes. 96kHz is a very hot potato!

Yup....so I always record at 88.2!
I'm waiting for a real reason not to.

With mixing OTB from my DAW playback...the higer rates cause no issues with my system (for the small amount of ITB processing I might do)...so I still haven't found a reason not to use 88.2.

 

[Justsomeguy]

Yup....so I always record at 88.2!
I'm waiting for a real reason not to.

With mixing OTB from my DAW playback...the higer rates cause no issues with my system (for the small amount of ITB processing I might do)...so I still haven't found a reason not to use 88.2.

Same here, although it's only been a recent move. i've not tried 96khz but 88.2khz seems more than enough for me