How to get a "good ear"?

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I play multiple instruments though and write, perform, and record all of my own music...

In spite of all the musical things you do, it is VERY obvious that you know nothing about choir music- and no, I am not simply hurling our own insult back at you, no matter how appropriate, in this instance, that would be. :) (Smilie inserted so you don't go ballistic.) Here's a challenge for you: name me ONE aspect of either mixing OR mastering process that is best done when one engages in critical listening, that is not at least as useful when one is a member of a good choir. Let me save you some trouble- THERE AIN'T ONE. You basically acknowledge that when you said

Learning how to listen critically is really all you need.

And

I'm sure it could work, but it just seems like overkill for what the OP actually asked.

A good choir is the ultimate crucible for developing critical music listening skills- one develops those skills faster and more surely in a choir environment, where one has several sources of immediate feedback on one's effectiveness and sound quality than perhaps anywhere else, certainly more than being isolated in a sound booth, listening to the same track over and over again while aural fatigue sets in, totally unnoticed.

Overkill? I think not, but I can see where you, having no choir experience, would miss noticing the benefits of being a member of a good choir- call it the "Wax on, wax off" effect- one can develop excellent skills even though it might not seem to be happening.

I have a lifetime of experience with choir singing, and I can tell you, from both experience and research, I know from whence I speak. I am truly sorry to have to call you out on this (and I hope my doing so does not lead you to think I am being antagonistic,) but presenting an untested opinion about something one has no experience in is the very definition of "talking out of one's ass."

The human voice is, literally, both the alpha and the omega of musical instruments. It was there before the first cave dweller hit that hollow log with a stick and liked the tone, and voice is more expressive and more musical (when done well) than any other instrument. Everyone from classical instrumentalist who marvel at how "close" a fine violin can come to sounding like the human voice, to digital synthesists who labor to make their synthesizers produce a convincing "ahh" sound pay homage to voice.

Oh, and "low self-esteem chicks?" You missed the bus on that one, too- sopranos have so much damn self-esteem they are, almost without exception, some of the world's biggest divas, altos know, to their core, how important their part is, and the occasional female tenor has had the best exercise in "building self-esteem by embracing who you are," ever. If you are looking for an easy lay, you best look elsewhere.

OP, if your funds are great and/or your time is nearly unlimited, by all means, purchase whatever "ear training" programs and pro-quality monitoring gear you like, and have fun exploring and using it all- they will, no doubt, help. But, if you are like most of us, who have limited financial and chronological resources, join a good choir, put your whole into the relatively small amount of time you will spent rehearsing, and in six months, you will have the best "ear" you ever had. There is one warning, though- you may find you so thoroughly enjoyed the experience that you decide to stay. Oh, and Greg- you would benefit as much from the choir experience, too- plus, you could add "vocalist/choir vocalist" to your list of musical skills.
 
Lol. Holy fuck dude. I'm sure it's awesome, but I'm not reading all that.
 
Being in a group (or more) can help a lot. There's a big picture (the group) and then there's the small one (the voice / or instrument). Most people listen to the group, having no familiarity with the individual voice(s). Having done more real world playing than recording has led me to a number of corrective actions I would have otherwise been oblivious to. And even with familiarity, it took a while to ID "WHAT" was wrong with said tracks. If I wasn't that intimate with the source material, I would have never realized the flaws in my current chain without some scientific endeavor that I'd likely never get around to.

As far as mixing a performers sound to your taste, that can be a double edge sword. The drummer might think that the tom is his signature sound. When he listens to your version he might decide that there's not enough tom and play it even louder next time. Possibly during the same session. You don't want to mess with his head as a performer and flat out tell him that he's hitting the tom too hard. But you might tell him that you brought it down in the mix so he doesn't try to correct himself because it's not the way he thinks it should sound. You can control some of that at the drum without having the player change. Depending on if it's the studios equipment, or his. There's a reason they shove a pillow in the bottom of the bass drum. And that foam stuff on the other side of some drum heads. And it's not for the look / style element. Or to keep it from rolling away.
 
A good choir is the ultimate crucible for developing critical music listening skills-

Regardless of how rewarding of an experience it might have been for you...I think you're getting a bit carried away with yourself.... :rolleyes:

A long time ago, I got sucked into a choir gig for a short time since the guy directing it was also my piano teacher. He needed a strong baritone, and he said I had natural/perfect baritone voice.

Anyway...it was an OK music experience, but when you are focused on your choir parts and paying attention to the direction, not to mention, standing IN the choir rather than out in front of it....
...it ain't much of a "critical" or "ultimate" listening experience.
Yeah...you can hear what is going on within the rest of the choir when you are in it, but I wouldn't call that a best-case scenario for developing critical listening skills AFA recorded music production goes.
 
Stevie's mom made him sing in the choir while all the other boys and girls were going to parties and playing spin-the-bottle, so now he projects his misery onto others.
 
I got bored with the song selection the choir was using...and quit after about a half dozen rehearsals.

I also quit that piano teacher not to long after that! :D
 
The first step in developing a good ear is to be able to go beyond personal preferences in music. If you listen with your tastes hijacking your brain, it's like trying to see a landscape through a fog. If you subscribe to the view that all contemporary mainstream music (or all metal, or all rap, or all whatever) is rubbish, then you are operating with blinkers. In the early seventies a recording engineer played a track for me.

"Listen to this" he said
"What is it?" I asked
"Perry Como"
"Perry Como? I never listen to that!" I exclaimed.
He told me to shut up, not be an idiot,and just listen.

That was my first step towards being able to listen critically to music, instead of judging it out of hand.
 
The first step in developing a good ear is to be able to go beyond personal preferences in music. If you listen with your tastes hijacking your brain, it's like trying to see a landscape through a fog. If you subscribe to the view that all contemporary mainstream music (or all metal, or all rap, or all whatever) is rubbish, then you are operating with blinkers. In the early seventies a recording engineer played a track for me.

"Listen to this" he said
"What is it?" I asked
"Perry Como"
"Perry Como? I never listen to that!" I exclaimed.
He told me to shut up, not be an idiot,and just listen.

That was my first step towards being able to listen critically to music, instead of judging it out of hand.


Excellent point. I'm a pure guitar-head 80's rocker myself, but I often listen to old Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett recordings and I'm blown away by the quality. I've got more "tech" in my home studio than they could've dreamed of, but they did so much more with what they had. I've learned a ton listening to older "not-my-genre" music.
 
I joined the choir at the university for a quarter. It was the only performance ensemble that didn't outright suck. Being the only trombone major at the school. Teaching a singer to play tuba so we had one of those and sleeping through concert band while the doctoral degreed college professor worked on the HS woodwind section that was filling out the group. 2 hour rehearsal and at best only 15 minutes of brass playing. Sure for orchestra where you're tacit until the 4th movement, but not for concert band playing sousa marches.

Choir was interesting. You get to sing in completely unrelated pitches to the written notes. Depending on who starts singing first. You even get to modulate mid song, when there isn't one written. As wear womens nylons over your hairy legs at ren fair because no one told you that you needed a wardrobe. But I second that sentiment that it's not ideal. The voice is unique to each instrument wielding creature. Where other instruments sound very much alike most of the time. Some minor difference in tone between the actual gear, but oh so minor compared to the human voice. Plus that whole pronouncing words in a language you don't speak or understand. (nor does 99.9% of your viewers, but still).
 
Lol. Holy fuck dude. I'm sure it's awesome, but I'm not reading all that.

Now, THAT if funny. :laughings:

Stevie's mom made him sing in the choir while all the other boys and girls were going to parties and playing spin-the-bottle, so now he projects his misery onto others.

Nope, didn't happen that way- although that crack is pretty funny, too. :D The three experiences that I had that were anywhere close to your analysis of me are:

1. I realized early in life I had a good voice, and volunteered for choir while in the 3rd grade. My mom had nothing to do with it.

2. Started playing guitar at 10, because I wanted to start a band. Didn't even think about it attracting girls, getting them was a pleasant side-effect.

3. (And the only one that was ever the slightest bit traumatic, but only for a moment) Didn't make the little league baseball team when the coach said, "I dunno 'bout you guys, but I wouldn't want a team mate who couldn't be a practice every Wednesday because he had GEETAR lessons..." I just rolled my eyes.:rolleyes: Probably none of those guys are still playing ball, but I play my "geetar" every day, to great enjoyment.

Man, I am sorry to hear some of you folks had negative experiences with choral music- some of those stories are almost tragic.:eek: Worst that happened to me was a university choir director who was a HUGE task-master, and had us do stuff that just nailed us to the freakin' WALL. Funny thing, though- we rose to the occasion, and did a masterful job of it- our voices were in fighting trim, too. Maybe I went over the top on relating how choir participation can train one's ear, but the reality is, it can. Happened for me, and I've seen others become better musicians for the experience- the same could be said of several recording engineers, I am sure.
 
Good music is music you like, bad music is music you dislike....i kid. Can you tell when stuff is out of tune? How about when the guitar or vocals are too loud in a mix? Simple stuff but start here.

Well, I guess to learm to know when the stuff is out of tune is kind of my first lesson, and probably the most important one.
 
The first step in developing a good ear is to be able to go beyond personal preferences in music. If you listen with your tastes hijacking your brain, it's like trying to see a landscape through a fog. If you subscribe to the view that all contemporary mainstream music (or all metal, or all rap, or all whatever) is rubbish, then you are operating with blinkers. In the early seventies a recording engineer played a track for me.

"Listen to this" he said
"What is it?" I asked
"Perry Como"
"Perry Como? I never listen to that!" I exclaimed.
He told me to shut up, not be an idiot,and just listen.

That was my first step towards being able to listen critically to music, instead of judging it out of hand.

Very true, something I should always remind myself.
 
Well if you don't have a lot of cash, and not a lot of pre-existing gear. A choir is definitely the cheapest musical group you could participate in. At a minimum you never have to worry about leaving your horn on the bus or other, I'm here, but I can't perform issues related to not having your gear at a gig. Or gear that actually works. Not that voices don't fail on occasion. But generally not because you had a blond moment.

Recalling having to sit out 80% of the 5+ gigs on a day because of a marching accident that left my trombone slide out of commission. Permanently stuck in 1 of 7 positions. Ultimately I chucked the horn some ten yards that day. It was a bundy so it survived. Sitting in the corner right now some 20+ years later, still surviving. And various other woes, like rigging up a bass trombone rotor with the paper string from an inter-office envelope just minutes before a recording session. Blowing a recording session because there wasn't ANY trombone in the payback mix and otherwise changing my game to make sure that I played loud enough to get picked up on EVERYONES mics. Blowing on the mic (probably a ribbon mic) to check to see if it's on too. And having the engineer semi-anonymously curse me out to the group. It was just one of those "california" days...
 
1. I realized early in life I had a good voice, and volunteered for choir while in the 3rd grade. My mom had nothing to do with it.

2. Started playing guitar at 10, because I wanted to start a band. Didn't even think about it attracting girls, getting them was a pleasant side-effect.

3. (And the only one that was ever the slightest bit traumatic, but only for a moment) Didn't make the little league baseball team when the coach said, "I dunno 'bout you guys, but I wouldn't want a team mate who couldn't be a practice every Wednesday because he had GEETAR lessons..." I just rolled my eyes.:rolleyes: Probably none of those guys are still playing ball, but I play my "geetar" every day, to great enjoyment.

Hi, Stevieb,

It looks like you have a love of music born with you. And it's just got me envied that there is actually someone who does what he loves for all his life, and at the same time is good at what he loves.
 
I used to be in a choir. It didn't help me as much as listening to lots of stuff, and spending a lot of time practicing things like mixing and critical listening. In fact, it didn't help with anything much apart from ticking a couple of boxes I needed ticked. Especially didn't help with my singing voice, which I couldn't hear over the band and the rest of the choir. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that a choir can mask a plethora of mistakes and bad habits, which doesn't help as practice. What proportion of mixing engineers do you suppose were in a choir? I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say 'a small minority'.

No, you don't have to join a choir. Any musical experience helps in making music, but you don't need to join a choir. You could just spend the time practicing the thing you want to use those golden ears for. That might help.
 

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