What digital recorder for live concerts and broadcasted concerts ?

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david winter

david winter

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Hi,

The question is kinda difficult to ask especially since things move so fast and since there must be so many solutions, but at least this will avoid some obvious mistakes.

I'm still using a Revox PR99 to record broadcasted concerts, and sometimes happen to record piano competitions in Paris using an old Nagra III (oops... but this works great for what it is).

I think it's time to move to digital despite the necessity of making backups and the like.
What I wanted to get is some good advise for a digital recorder which does:
- user friendly please !
- most formats: WAV, BWF, MP3 etc.
- up to 192KBs and up to 24-bit
- hot swappable flash cards if possible
- internal hard drive (flash if possible)
- USB 2 capability
- external hard drive capability
- "cut" function to remove unnecessary data before transfer or backup
- possibility of using professional microphones (phantom 48V ?) althouhg I might never use that
- usual RCA/Cinch intputs/outputs and at least XLR for mikes

and of course:
- not heavy
- least battery draw
- not el-cheapo but with serious warranty & firmware updates

Any thoughts ?


Thanks !
 
Not being familiar with your current recording set up, what do you use by way of microphones etc. to record with?
 
The Tascam HD24 is enjoying a renessance as a live-sound recording media. Still available new, so you get a warranty.
 
I really like the Boss BR 1600 although it may not meet several of your criteria. I have recorded a number of concerts (choirs, acoustic and rockabilly bands) and have had good results.
 
I have been doing similar to you for years - I now use the Nagra VI.

Portable - best mic. pres. and ADCs around - HDD (SSD option) and automatically backs up to CF cards. Superb ergonomics.

NVI_Red_case.jpg




The alternative is the Sound Devices 788T - quality almost as good as the Nagra but smaller.
 
What's the differences between the Nagra VI and the Nagra LB other than the number of tracks ? I don't really need six tracks, I'm not a sound engineer. I also heard that the LB still had some (although rare) cpu crashes. How true is this ?

Other question: do I really need to record at over 96KHz or is this definitely sufficient to record live broadcasts without loosing what I could only hear on tapes and not CDs ? I once recorded a live Varese concert, and when I listened to the tape at a friend who has a superb setup (Nagra IV-S, tube amps, Martin Logan speakers, etc.), I couldn't recognize my tape and felt quite in the theatre. I don't want to loose this feeling when concerts are well recorded.
 
Oops, I didn't read the entire original post. The HD24 is not battery-powered, like you want, and only supports it's own format, so it may not work for you. IF you can adjust some of your "needs," you might like it, but know it's a 4 (or maybe4-) space rack machine.

And if you happen to have one or somebody wants to sell you one for $500 or less and you DON'T want it, by all means, PM me.
 
david winter said:
What's the differences between the Nagra VI and the Nagra LB other than the number of tracks ? I don't really need six tracks, I'm not a sound engineer. I also heard that the LB still had some (although rare) cpu crashes. How true is this ?
Click to expand...

The Nagra VI is a much better machine, has better mic. pre-amps and is getting popular for mobile classical music recording for people who want the best.

The Nagra VI has 8 tracks with 4 mic. inputs. It has 6 line inputs and 2 stereo digital inputs. Nagra are releasing an external mic. pre. that will bring the mic. count up to 6. You can record all 8 tracks using 4 analogue mics. and 4 AES42 digital mics. by using a pair of the new Neumann DMI-2P units (I do this).

The advantage of the Nagra VI and its extra tracks is that you can easily do surround recording in the future without buying a new recorder - you can do an ORTF stereo pair with omni outriggers on 4 tracks and sort the mix later - etc....

I have had my own Nagra VI for two and a half years now (you can read my original review on THIS PDF, but software upgrades have made the machine much better since I wrote the review. I have recorded mainly in stereo only, but recently I recorded piano with a pair of digital mics. and a Soundfield SPS200 as an ambient mic. and also did a surround organ recording with the Soundfield.

The LB is an excellent machine, but stereo only. I have not heard about any crashes with the LB (I do have one in my possession and have used it as a back-up recorder on a recent session) and it has certainly never happened to me - and Nagra are excellent at looking immediately at any possible problems and getting a firmware update out very fast.

If you are investing now, I think the Nagra VI will grow with you and will fulfil your needs into the future, while the LB will give you excellent stereo recordings, but will just stay that way.



david winter said:
Other question: do I really need to record at over 96KHz or is this definitely sufficient to record live broadcasts without loosing what I could only hear on tapes and not CDs ? I once recorded a live Varese concert, and when I listened to the tape at a friend who has a superb setup (Nagra IV-S, tube amps, Martin Logan speakers, etc.), I couldn't recognize my tape and felt quite in the theatre. I don't want to loose this feeling when concerts are well recorded.
Click to expand...

All an increased sample-frequency does is to increase the file size and extend the top-end frequency response. I can't see any improvement in recording at 192kHz and record at 88.2 or 96 myself. This extends the top frequency response up to about 40kHz (a human can only normally hear up to about 18kHz and less if you are older).

I hope this helps.
 
To go through your original list in reference to the Nagra VI:-


- user friendly please !
A - Yes very user-friendly - the ergonomics are superb and pretty intuitive.


- most formats: WAV, BWF, MP3 etc.
A - records BWF (wav)) only, MP3 is crap for original recording (crap for everything else as well, but I won't go there now).


- up to 192KBs and up to 24-bit
A - The Nagra VI is 24-bit / up to 96kHz.


- hot swappable flash cards if possible
A - Yes, this is used for back-up ideally - record on the HDD/SSD and simultaneously back-up on the CF card.


- internal hard drive (flash if possible)
A - Yes (SSD an option)


- USB 2 capability
A - Yes


- external hard drive capability
A - Yes (on the latest version, retro-fittable option on earlier units)


- "cut" function to remove unnecessary data before transfer or backup
A - No internal file editing (though the LB has this), just transfer to a computer to edit; though you can delete unwanted files easily.


- possibility of using professional microphones (phantom 48V ?) although I might never use that
A - Yes, of course


- usual RCA/Cinch intputs/outputs and at least XLR for mikes
A - The Nagra VI is a pro machine with all analogue and digital in/outs on balanced XLR. Use an adaptor if you want RCA/Cinch.



and of course:

- not heavy
A - I find the weight no problem.


- least battery draw
A - standard battery lasts 4/5 hours, heavy duty pack (which I have) lasts 12/15 hours (ie: use all day and charge overnight).


- not el-cheapo but with serious warranty & firmware updates
A - Yes - price is not cheap, but not expensive for what you get. Warranty and back-up are superb, Nagra hace doe regular firmware updates that have vastly improved and extended the machine (and the first version was superb) - when I found a small bug (not serious and did not affect the recording) they had a firmware update uploaded in less than 48-hours and probably about 30 hours from when they read my e-mail (that's what I call superb service and back-up).


I hope this helps.

Feel free to send me a PM with specific questions if it helps.
 
Nagra LB

This is my first post so please direct me if I make any errors in etiquette.

I have owned a Nagra LB since just after they came to market a few years ago.

Since when there have been many firmware revisions and operationally the unit has become far more usable, however it is still a bit slow to respond and move from one function to another, but you learn to live with that. Much more of a bug bear for me is the fact that when you power the unit on, you might well find that it sees no files on your memory card. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t any, just that it can’t see them. So for example, if the card holds a file that has been recorded in 16 bit but your machine is set to record at 24 bit, it won’t see that 16 bit file. On my £200 Olympus LS10 you see everything.

Another problem is downloading from the LB to your PC using USB. This procedure adds nasty and very loud clicks to both the downloaded file and to the original on the memory card. As has been stated before, support from Nagra is excellent and I worked with the UK to identify what was causing this problem. Turns out to be a clocking issue which I don’t believe has been rectified. So a word of caution; download your CF files using a separate card reader and not straight from the LB itself.

The unit is well made and very sturdy and sips power from the batteries. A set will generally last me at least 8 – 9 hours. In fact, I’ve never run the batteries down through a recording session.

So here are a couple of locations with example recordings. Originally recorded at 24bit / 96k SPS, but on this site at reduced quality (CD). Microphones were Neumann KM184s (stereo set).

URLs REMOVED AS THIS IS MY FIRST POST - APOLOGIES, but if you go to the Internet Archive and search for "Organ recital by John McElroy" and also "CSO - Cheltenham All Saints Church", you'll find them.

Hope this post helps in some way.

Gary
 
Just noticed how long ago the original post was made. Be interested to know what you went for in the end.
 
gsherman said:
I have owned a Nagra LB since just after they came to market a few years ago.

Since when there have been many firmware revisions and operationally the unit has become far more usable, however it is still a bit slow to respond and move from one function to another, but you learn to live with that. Much more of a bug bear for me is the fact that when you power the unit on, you might well find that it sees no files on your memory card. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t any, just that it can’t see them. So for example, if the card holds a file that has been recorded in 16 bit but your machine is set to record at 24 bit, it won’t see that 16 bit file. On my £200 Olympus LS10 you see everything.
Click to expand...

With the LB it's best to have a separate card for each sample rate and don't mix different rates on the same card.

Newer alternatives include the AETA 4MinX (priced about half way between the Nagra LB and VI) and, at a more affordable price, the AETA MIXY used with a Tascam DR100II or Sony PCM-D50 as a "bit bucket". This comes out at slightly lower (I think) than the LB or SD 702 - but the audio quality in the 4MinX and MIXY is equal to the Nagra VI. :thumbs up:



gsherman said:
Just noticed how long ago the original post was made. Be interested to know what you went for in the end.
Click to expand...

Yes, Interesting, I agree.
 
Thanks for the card tip John, never thought of doing that although I wonder why I should have to.
Actually I only ever record at 24bit 96K unless shortage of space forces 16bit, so it's not such an issue, just an annoyance.

Appreciate your time in sending the suggestion though.

Gary
 
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