Do i NEED to mic an amp?

[heatmiser]

I pretty much always mic an amp.

Even if I was able to simulate that sound via some other method (which I can't), I wouldn't chose to. So yes, you do need to mic an amp...unless of course you prefer not to...whatever.

 

[kcearl]

yeah Pete but you still record on wax cylinders

 

[heatmiser]

Not so. I recently upgraded to wax cylinder sim plugins...basically the same thing and oh so convenient.

 

[tonesponge]

yeah Ive heard your stuff...what the hell is that noise??

Yeah, I know you're just kidding, but my current lead tone is just a compromise, and not my real thing. I'm doing the best I can in this stupid apartment I'm in now micing this little tube combo. Don't get me wrong, it can sound awesome at higher volumes and give good feedback, but I usually can't turn it up and make the magic, and my old recordings died with my old computer. I'll be on the look out for a house with a good room once I finally sell my house in Detroit. Yes, I said Detroit. Want to buy it? Meanwhile, my real rig is in storage, and it's amazing. Sigh. I miss it.

 

[kcearl]

Not so. I recently upgraded to wax cylinder sim plugins...basically the same thing and oh so convenient.

sell out

Yeah, I know you're just kidding, but my current lead tone is just a compromise, and not my real thing. I'm doing the best I can in this stupid apartment I'm in now micing this little tube combo. Don't get me wrong, it can sound awesome at higher volumes and give good feedback, but I usually can't turn it up and make the magic, and my old recordings died with my old computer. I'll be on the look out for a house with a good room once I finally sell my house in Detroit. Yes, I said Detroit. Want to buy it? Meanwhile, my real rig is in storage, and it's amazing. Sigh. I miss it.

moi kidding?


merci la vie

 

[miroslav]

That's all nostalgically sweet and all, but I honestly doubt you'd even give real quality amp software a chance. And if you did, your 60 year old bias wouldn't let you have an open mind anyway. And before you go mental and have a meltdown, that's not a knock. It's a simple fact that older tube guys are very stuck in their ways.

I'm not being nostalgic about anything...there are more tube amps and more brands and variety of tube amps today than there ever were before, and none of my tube amps are that 50-60 year old "vintage" stuff...they are ALL current production designs. I have no "60 year old bias"….I’m not even close to 60!

I first messed around with sims and digital audio about 20 years ago...and I've tried sims every time some new "tube amp killer" comes out or some guys on a forum start going on about how "real" the latest XYZ sim sounds and how close it is to the "real thing".
Like I said earlier, I used sims when I was in "plug-in" mentality for awhile and thought it would be the more efficient way to record….but I always came back to the amps and mics and straightforward recording processes.

So no...I'm not "stuck" in my old ways...I just don't see a need for something new that sounds "like the real thing"...when I already have the real thing!
But I agree with your point...that the guys who don't have any kind of amp to speak of, or a mic to stick in front of it, or interest in wanting to...yeah, sims are perfect for them.

Sorry....no meltdown.

 

[kcearl]

Meltdown!!!







lol

 

[miroslav]

Meltdown!!!







lol

I forgot...some of you guys think any response longer than two sentences equals a "meltdown".

 

[kcearl]

post reported

 

[miroslav]

DAMN!

You snitch!

 

[Lt. Bob]

they're all just tools.
I prefer an amp but I can get decent sound out of almost anything.
Lately I've been just using my Epi Valve junior for clean, crunch, dirty sounds ...... it's set up so i don't have to do anything but turn it on.
It's really a POS but I can get anything I want to out ofit.

I also can get what i need out of my modelers except the POD ....... that's the crappiest sounding thing ever.
But otherwise I can use a modeler just fine.
Everyone has their preferences and that's fine.
But NONE of this is hard fast rules. What works for one guy might not work for another.
pretty much anything works for me ...... but I WAY prefer amps.

 

[miroslav]

Lately I've been just using my Epi Valve junior for clean, crunch, dirty sounds ...... it's set up so i don't have to do anything but turn it on.
It's really a POS but I can get anything I want to out of it.

Is it stock?

I have one, along with the matching 112 cab. I like it most for dark, crunch tones...Volume anywhere beaten 1:00 and 3:00 works great for that.

I've been debating about dropping the $300 for the Mercury Magnetics tranny upgrades...everyone raves about that, including amp guru Myles Rose of Groove Tubes, 65 Amps and Dr. Z fame.

I don't really need to, I’ve got some really nice amps...but I just thought it might be something fun to do on a rainy or snowy day. It’s not a very complicated mod project.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Jerking around in the DAW once the tracks are in is the shit part for me.

You can say that again.

Mixing is OK, but certainly not as much fun as tracking.

And again I'm in agreement.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Look, I have no problem with real amps. I use them all the time. I love a big amp at full roar. I'm not gonna go all snob anti-sim though because of it.

I don't think we're as far apart as it might seem. I also said I have no problem with sims and use them all the time. The difference is I don't think they can carry the primary guitar part in a production in most cases.

Basically it's like sampling drums. I'm cool with people using sample replacement because you still have to play the parts. I don't do it personally because I don't know how and don't really want to. But with sample replacement, you still have to play the drums. With sims or amps, you're still actually playing the guitar. It's not MIDI or studio trickery. It's the performance that matters to me. Not how you got the sound.

This seems like a philosophical difference between the two of us. You seem to place the authenticity of the performance above the method of recording. I place minimal value on the authenticity of the performance (I'll use any studio trick I can think of and sleep well at night) and maximum value on the feel of the performance. For example, I would have a big problem using sample replacement in most cases because that is a sound I have grown very bored with, but I would have no problem cutting up a drum track and fixing timing errors as long as the result grooved correctly.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Is it stock?

yep ....... I run it thru a 10" Celestion. It IS dark but I can alter the tone a LOT by mic placement.
I have lots of amps and actually, everything else I have is better. But the Epi's set up so I use it.
If I ever do any critical recording I'd use other stuff naturally ..... but the Epi sounds fine for demo level stuff.

Those Mercury Magnetics trannies are supposed to transform the amp. There's another company that has a kit to turn it into an 18 watt Marshall Clone. I was gonna do that till I got the Mark V ........ just made it seem uneccessary.
Plus I have a Marshall, 4- Ampegs .... a Fender and another Mesa and a Tiny Terror so I lost interest but the MM mod's supposed to definitely be worth it.

 

[CFox]

Scientific research has long demonstrated the power of suggestion in perception as well as the strong effects of expectancies. For example, people expect more expensive wine to have more desirable characteristics than less expensive wine. When given wine that they are falsely told is expensive they virtually always report it as tasting better than the very same wine when they are told that it is inexpensive. French researcher Frédéric Brochet "submitted a mid-range Bordeaux in two different bottles, one labeled as a cheap table wine, the other bearing a grand cru etiquette" and obtained predictable results. Tasters described the supposed grand cru as "woody, complex, and round" and the supposed cheap wine as "short, light, and faulty."[4]

Google it to your hearts content. Scientific studies show that wine tasting is bullshit.

The same applies to real amps versus amp sims in 2010. Anyone who claims to be able to identify the real amp out of two recorded tones is lying or bullshitting or both.

If you have a vested interest IE you bought a $5000 Mesa Boogie then of course you will not concede that $200 GR4 can duplicate that tone.

As for the notion that you need to hear the amp responding to your playing when recording well I say that when I was in a pro studio I sat in the control room and heard my amp* through the studio monitors. This is standard practice.

So more bullshit by gear snobs.


*Hated the end result btw but was stuck with it. I would never record an amp again.

 

[D_Vincent]

I would suggest recording with a decent amp,guitar and mic.

Ive used amp sims for about 3 years or so and although they are cool and probably sound better at first listen there are some major problems regarding amp sims and I dont use amp sims any more for a few reasons listed below.

# 1 problem...they are hard to mix...they sound harsh to the ear in most instances...crispy crunchy and to much treble or high end overall or they are on the opposite spectrum like a line 6 pod where there is to much low end and to bassy...amp sim tracks are much harder to mix than a recorded amp and mic track.

# 2 problem...Players dont play an amp sim the same way they do an amp...there seems to be less aggression when using an amp sim.

# 3 problem...Software distortion sucks big time (licks big bag)...Its hard enough to find a decent analog distortion pedal you like...good luck on getting a software distortion to sound good...they all suck to my ears.

----------

Having said that I do like some clean sound amp sims...for clean guitar I think amp sims are usefull...for distortion sounds I think they sound horrible.

 

[Greg_L]

You seem to place the authenticity of the performance above the method of recording. .

Very much so. My point is that using a sim isn't gonna detract from the performance, and the good ones sound great. It's about the performance. If you play like a monkey, you're gonna sound like a monkey through an amp or a sim. I'm not telling anyone to not use an amp. I'm saying that they shouldn't shun sims out of snobbery.

 

[Greg_L]

I dont use amp sims any more for a few reasons listed below.

# 1 problem...they are hard to mix...

Maybe for you. I don't have a problem with them at all.

# 2 problem...Players dont play an amp sim the same way they do an amp...there seems to be less aggression when using an amp sim.

Who are these "players" and how do you know this? I know guys with awesome gear that welcome the use of sims for recording. A good player is gonna play good no matter what.

# 3 problem...Software distortion sucks big time (licks big bag)...Its hard enough to find a decent analog distortion pedal you like...good luck on getting a software distortion to sound good...they all suck to my ears.

Individual distortion plugs do usually suck ass. Distortions as part of a larger sim package usually don't.

 

[miroslav]

...they sound harsh to the ear in most instances...crispy crunchy and to much treble or high end overall .

What I always hear with sims when just auditioning a sim or when doing a side-by-side with a tube amp...is that the sim initially may sound good, but very quickly that wears off and my ears pick up on the underlying "homogenized" tone (after all its an algorithm, so the sim has to repetitively follow its programming).
Kinda like a buzzing that rides along with the rest of the tone, very low level underneath the primary tone.

I know some will point out that in a mix you can't hardly tell the difference...but I find that to be the case only sometimes, and very often, either due to crappy sims or folks not knowing how to blend/hide that homogenized sound within the mix...it's there.
It's in the mid-high to high end where I hear it the most.
It's the same effect you get with diet soda...while sipping it, you may not notice it immediately...but then that funky fake sweetener taste is there at the back of your throat.

Granted...some folks may not hear those things and will therefore not find any issue with the sims. I don't think it has anything to do with having "golden ears" or not. I believe everyone's hearing is NOT the same and different people are "tuned in" to different frequencies either in a pleasant way or unpleasant.
For me the sims just always hit that mid-high to high range in an unpleasant way….and yeah, especially when it’s a distortion sim. For clean tones, it’s not much of an issue…but then that’s the same thing you get with solid state amps, they sound good clean but they suck distorted.