Do i NEED to mic an amp?

[grimtraveller]

So what I'm saying is ....... gerg is our leader!

Hence the current economic climate !

You should ALWAYS mic an amp.

except for the times ya don't.

Seriously...I've got some pretty good sounds from both. Roll with what works and what you like the sound of.

The ultimate test. This whole conversation is only going to be of any interest to us and those actively involved in making or mixing music. I doubt there'll be legions of punters kicking down home studio doors and lynching the guitarists or engineers because of the particular recording processes used.

It's easy to forget that newbs are in a steep learning curve and any shortcuts you give them are gonna get them to making decent recordings much quicker which leads to having more fun with it which leads to getting better which leads to eventually growing into micing amps instead sometimes.

That's the difference. That shit aint fun for some people. Making music is though. Some people just want to make music, and some want to pretend to be engineers. There's nothing wrong with doing either, or both

It's just that there's also a whole bunch of people who don't give a fuck, don't want to spend all the time tweaking a mic a few mm at a time until it sounds perfect, and just want to plug in and get a good sound right away. They're valid approaches that happen to be at two radically different ends of the convenience-flexibility spectrum.

When I started learning the guitar I said I'd learn every chord and never use a capo. Though I've spent years playing in live situations, live playing comes very much second to writing and recording, for me. I happen to believe that both strands of this argument are right.......for whomever they are right. As Drew and Greg said, they are both valid approaches at radically different ends of the food chain. I like live and unadorned, I like artifice. There's no conflict in my mind because both work and as the Duke of Howling Winds put it

Seriously...I've got some pretty good sounds from both. Roll with what works and what you like the sound of.

. Think 'paradox'.
I understand the 'walk before you run' approach but for those that just want to record their stuff, there's little point in spending a week learning about a great amp and the microtonal borders of mic positioning. I'd never knock it, but it's not for everyone. For some people, learning all that stuff will kill the spontaneity and joy of creation. Growth and progression come in different guises and people hit them at differing speeds. Personally, my preferred path is to mic the amp. But there's more to life than this. That would be like eating mushrooms every day.
Going back to the capo for a second, after a couple of years I gave up my 'stuff the capo' campaign and the capo has been a regular and indispensable part of my armoury. I have 'nuff reeeeeee~SPEC for guitarists that never use them. But when I'm playing about with varispeeding and different keys and voices, it is my flexible friend. And DI, sims and the like fall into the same bracket. They are, like mics and amps, tools, not ends in themselves.

 

[Dogbreath]

I totally agree. I use one guitar tone for pretty much everything - the tired but awesome Gibson/Marshall sound. I have access to 3 badass 100w tube rigs, or Guitar Rig. I use em all. I bet no one can tell the difference. I also totally agree with the idea of an album being cohesive. I'm a total nazi about my drums. They have to sound the same from song to song because I write songs in batches with the intent of making an album out of them. I don't change anything until I get around 12 songs in the bag. I hate albums where it's obvious that the songs were recorded at different times in different studios with maybe even different people.

Still, you can't be that way and then complain about a lack of flexibility with sims. You just admitted to not being flexible at all. Having a jillion options is the very definition of flexibility. I'm not talking about some handheld mini POD or a piece of shit Line 6. I'm talking high end softwares like Guitar Rig or Revalver. If some dude wants a bunch of different amp sounds from song to song, or if he's hunting down his own signature sound, he can do it and sound great with a good sim and not be stuck with one expensive amp and an expensive pile of crappy tone sucking pedals.

tl/dr

 

[Chibi Nappa]

This actually is one of my biggest pet peeves with the whole modeling movement. Line6 has done a spectacular job of creating a need that didn't exist before they entered the market - having a whole fleet of different tones available to record with.

I kinda' feel this way too. I need my sound. The actual mechanics of my fingers and palms interacting with the guitar are optimized for the sound my guitar and amp make. I would be a different guitar player today if I owned a different amp for the past 6 years.

My single base tone can then be endlessly tweaked with the amp knobs, mics, rooms, etc.

I don't need more than one base tone. I like having a large number of base tones, which is why I do own and use a sim (and 3 other amps), but those sounds are mostly used in supporting roles in the arrangement.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, but I'm of the school of thought that a band/album should have a cohesive "sound," and part of that cohesiveness is a consistent guitar sound.

And I'm bored up to here with tradition and I generally prefer as much sonic variety as possible from song-to-song in an album. I still get the best performance, feel, and vibe sticking with my guitar and amp.

 

[miroslav]

That's the difference. That shit aint fun for some people. Making music is though. Some people just want to make music, and some want to pretend to be engineers. There's nothing wrong with doing either, or both, and there's nothing wrong with sims and/or amps, unless you're a douchey snob.

I agree...spending time to learn something doesn't appeal to everyone, though some folks do enjoy the *recording process* as much as making the music, so the learning part for them also opens up ideas for other things because some knowledge is gained during the process. And…whether you like to "engineer" or not...everyone is still in it for the same reason...to make music!
Thing is...most of the guys on these forums ARE engineering their own stuff...there's no "pretending" about it. So from that perspective, they'll get a lot more out of their own engineering experience if they know how to get what they want in a variety of ways instead of always going for the simple short cut. They may not need to mic up their own amp, and instead they choose to use a sim, which is fine...but then their buddy comes over and he wants to use an amp...or one day they need to record some other kind of sources that don't have a "plug-n-play" option...etc.

I'm just saying that there's always something to be gained from learning how to do things more than one way and/or by NOT just taking the easy way.
Too often on "home recording" type forums there's an underlying attitude that recording in the traditional manner is for audio snobs, and that there’s no point doing things that way because it’s too time consuming ...yada, yada, yada...and you can just use shortcuts and get the same results. Well, I agree sometimes the short cuts get you the same thing, but one can’t ignore the fact that the majority of music, sounds, tones that people really like…were probably recorded in the traditional manner.

I understand why sims appeal to some folks in certain situations…and that’s fine, you make do with what you have….but c’mon, playing around with a nice tube amp for a few hours…what guitar player would think that shit ain’t no fun???
And…like how many people on these forums actually have a solid deadline and are paying by the hour to record???
So…you spend a little extra time working up a track...no one’s going to get upset about it.

 

[Greg_L]

tl/dr

It wasn't for you. Nice try though.

 

[Dogbreath]

It wasn't for you. Nice try though.

.............

 

[Greg_L]

I agree...spending time to learn something doesn't appeal to everyone, though some folks do enjoy the *recording process* as much as making the music, so the learning part for them also opens up ideas for other things because some knowledge is gained during the process. And…whether you like to "engineer" or not...everyone is still in it for the same reason...to make music!
Thing is...most of the guys on these forums ARE engineering their own stuff...there's no "pretending" about it. So from that perspective, they'll get a lot more out of their own engineering experience if they know how to get what they want in a variety of ways instead of always going for the simple short cut. They may not need to mic up their own amp, and instead they choose to use a sim, which is fine...but then their buddy comes over and he wants to use an amp...or one day they need to record some other kind of sources that don't have a "plug-n-play" option...etc.

I'm just saying that there's always something to be gained from learning how to do things more than one way and/or by NOT just taking the easy way.
Too often on "home recording" type forums there's an underlying attitude that recording in the traditional manner is for audio snobs, and that there’s no point doing things that way because it’s too time consuming ...yada, yada, yada...and you can just use shortcuts and get the same results. Well, I agree sometimes the short cuts get you the same thing, but one can’t ignore the fact that the majority of music, sounds, tones that people really like…were probably recorded in the traditional manner.

I understand why sims appeal to some folks in certain situations…and that’s fine, you make do with what you have….but c’mon, playing around with a nice tube amp for a few hours…what guitar player would think that shit ain’t no fun???
And…like how many people on these forums actually have a solid deadline and are paying by the hour to record???
So…you spend a little extra time working up a track...no one’s going to get upset about it.

I didn't read much of that, but I will say that using a sim isn't a simple short cut. The good ones act just like real amps and you have to fiddle and tweak. They can sound just as shitty as a real amp if used improperly. They can also sound as good, or better. Their main benefit comes from not having to buy one expensive amp and be stuck with it. You also don't have to blow your ears out to use one. And if you don't play guitar live, there really isn't much point in owning a battery of amps when a good sim will do the job every bit as well.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I agree...spending time to learn something doesn't appeal to everyone, though some folks do enjoy the *recording process* as much as making the music, so the learning part for them also opens up ideas for other things because some knowledge is gained during the process.

Yeah, I guess this whole thing is different for a musician/engineer. But I would think that if you are a musician/engineer who doesn't particularly like the recording process, you would hunt down an engineer/musician who loves the recording process. They're different jobs for a reason, right?

I probably see this whole thing from the other side of the fence compared to most here. I freakin' love recording. I love tuning a drum head. I love pulling a sofa out of one room and putting it in another. I love listening to the band rough it out live and working out how many mics I'm going to have to place where to create the production in my head. I don't really like holding the guitar myself when the record light is on. 90% of my work is somebody else's band. I'm an engineer/musician.

 

[Greg_L]

I like "engineering" my own stuff, but there's no way in hell I'd sit through someone else's garbage. I don't care about the "magic" of music or recording sound. I just wanna bang out my own songs and do the best I can.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I didn't read much of that, but I will say that using a sim isn't a simple short cut. The good ones act just like real amps and you have to fiddle and tweak.

Yeah, I know this first-hand.

They can sound just as shitty as a real amp if used improperly. They can also sound as good, or better.

And here is where we part ways. They can sound good on their own. They can sound as good as the real deal if you turn off cabinet simulation and send the sim through a real amp/cab. They can't sound as good as the real deal on their own. But this is all opinion so I guess there's not much more to say.

Their main benefit comes from not having to buy one expensive amp and be stuck with it. You also don't have to blow your ears out to use one. And if you don't play guitar live, there really isn't much point in owning a battery of amps when a good sim will do the job every bit as well.

Dude, sims are cheap. Buy one expensive amp and a sim. Then you've got your main tone and you can play the sim through the amp whenever variety is needed.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I like "engineering" my own stuff, but there's no way in hell I'd sit through someone else's garbage.

Neither would I. This isn't my day job. I don't take a project unless I love the song.

 

[miroslav]

Their main benefit comes from not having to buy one expensive amp and be stuck with it. You also don't have to blow your ears out to use one. And if you don't play guitar live, there really isn't much point in owning a battery of amps when a good sim will do the job every bit as well.

Well...I think that's a per-person thing and not a best-case scenario for people to follow.

I don't play out live right now and haven't for awhile, but I have a battery of amps (eight - if that's a battery) and I really DO see a point to the amps VS sims.
I have one sim box (analog) and some sim DAW plugs...and I just don't care to spend time fiddling with them when I could instead fiddle with my tube amps.

Also...from my perspective...owning decent tube amps isn't something I feel I'm "stuck with". For me, each amp purchase was made for the long-term...and honestly, I think I'm still about 2-3 amps short of where I'm going to be. I mean...there are still a few amps I want to own, also for the long-term.
I know when/if the time comes...I will get every penny back out of those amps, and for some I'll even make a profit the older they get.

Sorry...I just can't get that excited about a “battery of sims”...not to mention, most sims have NO resale value, especially the older they get.
But like I said…I do understand why some people use them, but they are certainly never going to be a 100% replacement for decent tube amps…at least not for me.

YMMV…..

 

[miroslav]

I freakin' love recording. I love tuning a drum head. I love pulling a sofa out of one room and putting it in another. I love listening to the band rough it out live and working out how many mics I'm going to have to place where to create the production in my head. I don't really like holding the guitar myself when the record light is on. 90% of my work is somebody else's band. I'm an engineer/musician.

Well that's where I am too.
For me, tracking and pre-production is the most fun...and I like to spend time messing around with the amps and the ideas.
Once something starts to "set"...after that it's just a methodical process to the finish, to get the end result...you know what you are going after and what you would like to do.

So I don't find the *recording* process at all tedious or time consuming.
Jerking around in the DAW once the tracks are in is the shit part for me.
Mixing is OK, but certainly not as much fun as tracking.

 

[Greg_L]

sims are cheap. Buy one expensive amp and a sim. Then you've got your main tone and you can play the sim through the amp whenever variety is needed.

Sims are cheap compared to real amps. Another benefit.

Look, I have no problem with real amps. I use them all the time. I love a big amp at full roar. I'm not gonna go all snob anti-sim though because of it.

Basically it's like sampling drums. I'm cool with people using sample replacement because you still have to play the parts. I don't do it personally because I don't know how and don't really want to. But with sample replacement, you still have to play the drums. With sims or amps, you're still actually playing the guitar. It's not MIDI or studio trickery. It's the performance that matters to me. Not how you got the sound.

 

[Greg_L]

Well...I think that's a per-person thing and not a best-case scenario for people to follow.

I don't play out live right now and haven't for awhile, but I have a battery of amps (eight - if that's a battery) and I really DO see a point to the amps VS sims.
I have one sim box (analog) and some sim DAW plugs...and I just don't care to spend time fiddling with them when I could instead fiddle with my tube amps.

Also...from my perspective...owning decent tube amps isn't something I feel I'm "stuck with". For me, each amp purchase was made for the long-term...and honestly, I think I'm still about 2-3 amps short of where I'm going to be. I mean...there are still a few amps I want to own, also for the long-term.
I know when/if the time comes...I will get every penny back out of those amps, and for some I'll even make a profit the older they get.

Sorry...I just can't get that excited about a “battery of sims”...not to mention, most sims have NO resale value, especially the older they get.
But like I said…I do understand why some people use them, but they are certainly never going to be a 100% replacement for decent tube amps…at least not for me.

YMMV…..

That's all nostalgically sweet and all, but I honestly doubt you'd even give real quality amp software a chance. And if you did, your 60 year old bias wouldn't let you have an open mind anyway. And before you go mental and have a meltdown, that's not a knock. It's a simple fact that older tube guys are very stuck in their ways.

 

[Greg_L]

Anyway, to the original poster....


No, you don't need to mic an amp unless you want to record that amp, and then yes, you will need to mic it. But you don't have to use an amp at all if you don't want to or if your amp is shit.

 

[kcearl]

Ok, maybe I could have put that more tactfully.

You know what I mean, though. There IS a difference between a great amp properly mic'd and recorded (and, if you're close-micing, the room really isn't a huge factor) and an amp sim. It's one that will be lost on most of the listening public, however, and because it takes a lot more work to get that improvement in tone and comes at the cost of a lot less flexibility, then for a lot of people it's simply not worth the hassle. It's less a question of being lazy than of picking your battles.

For me, I have a kickass amp that sounds good at the levels I can safely record it in my apartment, a couple suitable mics to choose between, and enough patience - I'd rather mic up than buy a modeler or use a VST sim. But at the same time I also understand their appeal.

truth be told guitars dont play a huge part in my music or tastes..and I never set out with a tone..or tune in mind

if I like it, it stays in...if I had the choice id like a couple of nice amps and guitars...but I dont and theres many other things I could put to better use first


anyway...good ol' HR thread this one

 

[tonesponge]

Yeah...but just think how much more fun it would be spending a week with a Mark V, dialing in the amp, learning what it can do, learning where/what/how to use a mic....

...VS just calling up a pre-programmed "stadium guitar" algorithm.

Some amps can be instruments in themselves. It can take a while to learn to play them. I don't think a week is enough time.

With a sim, a newb can flip through presets until they find something they connect with. Connection is key.

But the thing that I connect with can't be done by any sim I've ever encountered.

 

[kcearl]

Some amps can be instruments in themselves. It can take a while to learn to play them. I don't think a week is enough time.

With a sim, a newb can flip through presets until they find something they connect with. Connection is key.

But the thing that I connect with can't be done by any sim I've ever encountered.

yeah Ive heard your stuff...what the hell is that noise??

 

[bassbrad]

No, I have to say some of the more satisfying guitar sounds I've gotten have come from multi effects processors or re-amping. With so many quality solutions you have to really have a serious amp, mic and space to get better results than you can with in the box or virtual emulators. These days the only time I set up an amp is for specific sound like feedback that you cannot get virtually.