First Time Snake Owner Juggling Connections

[J_R]

I have a Behringer Europower PMP3000 16 channel powered mixer.

I just got a 16 IN-XLR x 4 OUT-TRS x 100' Live Wire snake.

Now the fun begins and the confusion starts.

Things I have figured out: (feel free to correct me please)
1. I'm not sending the power driving the PA back via the snake. I have 2 separate neutrik cables for that.
2. The TRS returns are for the signal to the monitor system. Period. That gets amplified downstream.
3. The board only has 8 XLR-in connectors - the remaining connectors are all either TS or RCA. Therefore to connect them I need 8 XLR-F Lo-Z/Hi-Z RS-M transformers with pigtails. (The connectors are too dense so pigtail leads appear to be essentail)
4. Having only 8 XLR connectors means only 8 mics get phantom power - so I need to be mindful of what I plug in where

Big Question: If I want to plug in a Hi-Z device to the box-end of the snake (For example a Shure Green Bullet hamonica mic) - do I need another transformer, this time Hi-Z TS-F/Lo-Z XLR-M to plug into it?

i.e. Hi-Z device (TS-M)->(TS-F) Hi-Z/Lo-Z transformer (XLR-M)->(XLR-F) snake (XLR-M)->(XLR-F) Lo-Z/Ho-Z transformer (TS-M)->(TS-F) Mixing board

I have to ask because it seems that there are simple TS-F/XLR-M adapters available that don't seem to mention a transformer. What is the difference & where is it actually appropriate to use each?

I find myself shelling out for cables & adapters at least 50% the cost of the snake just to hook it up properly... I need to get it Right.

"Beware the hobby that feeds" - Benjamin Franklin

Thanks,

- Jon Rohr

 

[mshilarious]

3. The board only has 8 XLR-in connectors - the remaining connectors are all either TS or RCA. Therefore to connect them I need 8 XLR-F Lo-Z/Hi-Z RS-M transformers with pigtails. (The connectors are too dense so pigtail leads appear to be essentail)

Maybe. It depends on what you are sending down those lines. Remember the snake is just a cable, it doesn't know the impedance of the connected gear. If you want to plug a dynamic mic into a line-level input, yes you would want the transformer. Really what you want is more mic preamps than your mixer has . . .

Big Question: If I want to plug in a Hi-Z device to the box-end of the snake (For example a Shure Green Bullet hamonica mic) - do I need another transformer, this time Hi-Z TS-F/Lo-Z XLR-M to plug into it?

Yes, because a high impedance device cannot drive the length of the snake cable. Although with the Green Bullet it's possible to internally rewire it for balanced low-impedance output. See the manual for details.

I have to ask because it seems that there are simple TS-F/XLR-M adapters available that don't seem to mention a transformer. What is the difference & where is it actually appropriate to use each?

When you don't need an impedance conversion, you would just need the adaptor. For example, if you were running mics & preamps through a TRS patchbay.

I find myself shelling out for cables & adapters at least 50% the cost of the snake just to hook it up properly... I need to get it Right.

At some point you have to consider the cost of the required adaptors vs. the cost of a larger mixer. Good transformers aren't cheap.

 

[stevieb]

See, this is why I hate most modern mixers- powered or unpowered. They CALL it a "16-channel" mixer, but you can only connect HALF that number of mics. It keeps getting worse, too- used to be, they cheaped out on only the last 4 channels, with those being "twinned" stereo input channels, presumably for keyboards. Now, it's gotten to the point where only HALF of the channels you have are "full service:" either mic or line level. Most shows are mono, anyway, so the stereo inputs for keys or whatever are another wasted input channel. It's all about making the product as cheaply as possible, while finding some way to make it appear to be big-time. I pointed this horrible practice out to a sales rep at Ken Stanton Music (Marietta, GA) and that idiot freakin' defended it, saying it allowed them to sell a cheaper board. Well, DUH! I have had to use such boards on occasion, and it always seems you run out of mic channels before you are done setting up the stage. Said sales person happened to have a slightly older, Made-in-US Mackie board, used, but I was so pissed at him, I walked out and bought it from another sales rep later- I'll be damned if I am going to give money to a sales person who argues with me- the customer may not always be right, but arguing with him is just shooting yourself in the foot.

Given the horrible reputation Behringer gear has, (especially their mixers, several of which seem to shut down when they get hot- oh, sure, they come back on when the cool off, but what good does that do you?), and the fact you already own a snake, I'd replace the mixer/amp with a "true" 16-channel board and separate power amps. Chances are, if you are mixing a band that needs "only" 16 or fewer inputs, you can do fine with two or three monitor mixes, and a mono FOH mix (which will work even if you are going bi- or tri-amped- put your active crossover right in front of the 2 or 3 FOH power amps.) Even if you DO have some line-level sends, some (maybe most or all?) board's "Line/Mic" switch simply turns off the pre-amp, but does not kill the XLR input- so your line-level signal can go through the snake's XLR send and the board processes it as line, not mic.

 

[moresound]

Really Stevie shouldn't they be saying ....... *want to purchase a 24 I mean 20 channel console*? ...... Gets my goat too!

 

[J_R]

Relieved and Thankful

First of all, many thanks for setting me straight. The impedance issue in particular was amazingly helpful.

So it would seem that this is "just the way it is".

In a way that makes me feel better because now I know what I am up against when I start upgrading components.

Essentially it's a bunch of marketing and spec-tweaking bullshit.

So it's time to think positively: At least I can come at it with a strategy now.

It sounds to me like an excuse to acquire a 500 series rack that is at least 8 units wide and start filling it with preamps. If I work this correctly then I can even have different ones that are purpose-specific.

My gear, like everyone else's, is a constant work in progress. It is essentially "all I could come up with so far." So maybe that growth-path isn't the worst thing in the world as it gives me a kick in the right direction.

Thanks again.

- JR

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I have a Behringer Europower PMP3000 16 channel powered mixer.

What you have is an 8-channel board with some handy additional line inputs.

3. The board only has 8 XLR-in connectors - the remaining connectors are all either TS or RCA. Therefore to connect them I need 8 XLR-F Lo-Z/Hi-Z RS-M transformers with pigtails. (The connectors are too dense so pigtail leads appear to be essentail)
4. Having only 8 XLR connectors means only 8 mics get phantom power - so I need to be mindful of what I plug in where

By the time you get done with all the impedance transformers and adapters you may have spent nearly the difference between your 8-channel board and a proper 16-channel board and amp. You would put all the amps at the stage end of the snake and run line level to them. That's how it's done.

A powered mixer is not the right tool for the job. It's best used on or near stage with shorter speaker cables. Hopefully at least you have 12AWG or bigger cables. At 100' or more you get significant losses with smaller cables. Larger number means smaller wire.

 

[mshilarious]

It sounds to me like an excuse to acquire a 500 series rack that is at least 8 units wide and start filling it with preamps. If I work this correctly then I can even have different ones that are purpose-specific.

For live sound? A 500 rack into a Behri? How about a 16 channel A&H Mixwiz or the 14 channel with the four subs, I would take either of those over the Behri + 500, and that's a much cheaper solution even once you buy power amps.

I won't comment on the idea of purpose-specific preamps . . .

 

[J_R]

Growth Path

Let me put this another way then:

I don't have a pile of money to drop to go & buy everything over AGAIN.
Therefore continuing to piss on Behringer does not seem productive as I'm not likely to put something that is still under warranty on eBay and recoup a loss there. This is just going to be a Lesson for a while...

Looking at a comparable Mackie mixer - which costs 50% more - without any built-in drivers - it only yields 2 more pre-amps but they are on channels that are otherwise doubled for stereo inputs, so if you use them you end up with a 14 channel board. No love there..

And you still need outboard amps. More money and more shit to lug around & buy cases for when gigging. I would probably go with Mackie HD series cabs to get around that, but I went the direction I did because I had a pair of 3-way Crates on hand that needed a driver. A 30lb board with built in drivers is a Siren's Song.

I do appreciate the tips about the speaker wires. Just because the snake is 100' doesn't mean I plan on getting that far away. 51' can be a problem when you only have 50', so I went long - hoping for an excuse to need it.


Let's face it: there are Levels. I'm on the n00b board and I'm looking for a Growth Path to follow to Level-Up. Until I hit that lottery, that's going to be a long & slow process based on the priority of bang-for-the-buck. Maybe I should change the timbre of my questioning to point in that direction.

I'm focusing on Live Recording. I need to be able to move this around for events, so a "Console" format approach is overkill based on logistics. So that's my Target.

Now for some explanation:

Just because I mentioned a 500 series also doesn't mean API or Neve. There's that whole homebrew market there too - FiveFish for example. At least then it is modular. Again - Levelling-Up over time and doing the best that I can manage on a given week.

I'm sure I was dangling flame-bait with the 'purpose specific preamp' comment - but wouldn't a Hi-Z input like a Harmonica mic be a good example of that kind of thing that might not trigger a Holy War?

Thanks again,


JR

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it still is the wrong tool for the job. All those adapters and outboard preamps will just add multiple points of potential failure and increase setup and troubleshooting time. Sure, nice preamps are an attractive idea, but being ready to hit record before the show starts is far more important. If recording is a priority then you shouldn't deal with the live sound at the same time until you are very experienced, and in that case you don't need amps (which are NOT called drivers) at all. Trust me on this. I've mixed and recorded hundreds of live performances, many with scrounged gear, and screwed up my share when I took on too many tasks.

But if you're determined to do it your way, go ahead. That's what I did and it's an excellent way to learn. There's nothing more motivating than having the band and a room full of impatient audience glaring at you while you frantically run around trying to make the show work. Been there, done that, know better.

 

[moresound]

True that soundguy from Boulder. Maybe he needs an assistant to do the live sound while he records or visa-versa.

 

[J_R]

One Size does Not Fit All

OK OK Now I understand the disconnect.

Now I must explain. Stop me when I become a shill - I was trying to avoid this.

Like everyone else, we think that we are doing is something "different".

If you like you might fancy it 'extreme improvisation'. Alternately you might call it the most overworked "open-mic" ever attempted. There is no audience glaring at you because this is not a shotgun-script event. At any given opportunity one of those audience members can come up show everyone how it is done.

I am the "passive aggressive" producer/promoter/player aka Instigator. It more or less means that I am running mics to support a 3-7 piece band and sometimes I sit in when there is an empty seat.

Every event so far has snowballed dramatically. You will notice how I keep coming back to the same topic over & over again - a Growth Path.

I keep asking for what might be a reasonable path. I'm looking for something like - focus on X first, then Y & then once that's together you can worry about Z.

I was THINKING maybe first get a functional remote path that WORKS (first time snake owner - remember?) and then clean it up any way I can. Then focus on getting better mics and then maybe start the inevitable preamp fixation phase. From there maybe graduate from stereo feeds from the board to a TASCAM up to isolated channel punch-outs over a high end codec into directly into Logic...

But let me recap what I'm hearing: First I should eat what is in place and jump right to the upgrades.

OK let's call it $475 recouped @ $0.80 on the dollar via ebay wrangling. (Because my time spent doing that is worthless) Next spend $1k to replace the board.

Then I'll need to get 1200w worth of new drivers... or I could sell off my cabinets, eat the wear & tear on those & then upgrade to powered Mackies... Either way - another pile of ca$h.

And this is because 8 pigtail transformers out of the snake is error prone and I'm short on available preamps.. Did I miss something? Did I misinterpret, or miscalculate?

Checking the pressure gauge - Am I still on the n00b board here? Sorry! I'll downshift.

Can I back up and politely ask for an explanation of: Why Behringer Sucks?

I am not being facetious here - I honestly don't know. They're cheap enough that I can afford it - so it must suck - but beyond that?

Next stupid questions - why do Powered Mixers Suck? What purpose, if any, Should they serve if used appropriately?

Is it truly preferable to tour with brick-like rack-mountable amps instead?

How does the answer to that question relate to Mackie Powered Speakers like the HD series and couldnt I bypass the need for those bricks with running those off the snake returns?

When is is actually appropriate to use a lunchbox and what would I dare to put in it?

Sorry if I come off like the guy who demanded of the Buddha that he teach him all the knowledge in the world while standing on one foot, but if I'm going to be schooled then I want to make sure it sticks...


- Jon Rohr
www.strangesofa.com

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The main issue I see is placing the powered mixer anywhere other than on or near stage. It forces you to use long speaker cables, and that cuts into the already limited power of the amps in the mixer. Those amps are probably rated rather optimistically. There is no free lunch with power: either they are heavy or pricey for a given power level. Keeping your speaker cables short gets the most out of your amps, and that means putting your amps near stage, which in your case means the mixer goes near stage as well. Given that you sit in it makes sense to me to have your mixer on stage anyway. It's the path of least resistance.

And you know those eight 1/4" inputs? They are really only four inputs as they are in pairs that share control functions. You can't turn 9 down and 10 up at the same time. 13-16 don't have eq or balance controls. The only time you can use both channels of a pair is with a stereo source. At least that cuts down on the number of adapters you'd need to go through the snake. Mixing from stage and skipping the snake also cuts down on the number of adapters. That saves you money and reduces the chances of failures.

Behringer... Well, a lot of it sucks because it sounds bad or breaks easily or both. There are a couple of exceptions. Their amps have done pretty well, and the digital crossover has a following. They have a bad reputation of copying other manufacturers products a little too closely, and they've gotten busted for it. A whole bunch of their stuff got pulled from the market when the FCC found that it hadn't been properly tested for interference problems. I use some of their stuff and avoid the rest like the plague.

If I were you I would just keep what I had, mix from stage and buy the minimum to make the show happen. Accept the limitations of your setup as part of the deal. It's challenging and educational. I did a couple hundred open mic events with an 8-channel powered board, so I know of which I speak. Get your use out of the board etc. and start saving up for the next stage. Eventually upgrade to an actual 16-channel mixer and separate amps (or powered speakers) if you still feel the need. Don't go too overboard on recording, just keep it simple and easy and focus on the show. Average recordings of great performances are far better that awesome recordings of train wrecks.

Oh, and please don't call amplifiers "drivers". That word refers to the individual components of speaker systems, such as woofers etc.

 

[mshilarious]

And this is because 8 pigtail transformers out of the snake is error prone and I'm short on available preamps.. Did I miss something? Did I misinterpret, or miscalculate?

Checking the pressure gauge - Am I still on the n00b board here? Sorry! I'll downshift.

Again, good transformers aren't cheap. $15 transformer adaptors sound worse than your Behri board. Also, transformers don't go from mic level to line level, they go from mic level to instrument level. There is a technical reason for this that if you are really bored I will explain.

Anyway, without looking at your Behri's specs (that's a good homework assignment), I don't know what kind of noise performance you could expect from that rig. Just keep in mind the transformer adaptors aren't designed for 10K ohm loads, they are designed for 50K or higher. So plugged into a 10K line input will load down your source and potentially net you less gain than you had hoped for. Will that sound OK for a bar open mic night? Well, I can't say too many people are really listening, so probably anything is acceptable.

But if your primary use is recording, those are not the way to go.

Next, the 500 rack. That is, what, $800 for the lunchbox plus modules. Fivefish just discontinued his cheapest option, the transformerless SC-1mk500. So now you can choose from three versions, all with input and output transformers, for $399-$495 each. So you're up to at least $4K, but you still lack full control over those eight channels, and you still have the mixer far from stage (a big problem if you are playing & mixing at the same time), plus you need to buy a case to mount the lunchbox, and you have extra cabling to hassle with patching every show if you can't mount the Behri and the lunchbox in the same case.

This is really good advice:

If I were you I would just keep what I had, mix from stage and buy the minimum to make the show happen.

The next step up would be a proper 16 channel board (both A&H and Mackie are rackmountable) and power amps on stage, together with an appropriate rack case for each.

 

[buzzard bass]

These guys know what they're talking about. Your bottom line is this is what I'm looking for and this is what I have. Unfortunately what you have aint going to give you what you want. No matter what you do to it. It's like getting a Squire Strat and Squire amp and wanting the sound of a US Strat and US twin. It aint going to happen.

 

[bdenton]

A Little Bit Of Realism

Jon...

Just a few things...

I have several pieces of Behringer gear, including 3 mixers and two powered PA speakers, and I've never had any trouble with any of it. Do people "oooh" and "ahhh" when they see my rig? No. Do I care? No. The Behringer gear does what I want it to do at a price I can afford to pay. End of story.

On my first read of your first post, I thought you were a little overly worried about impedance matching with the transformers and stuff. Impedance matching is important, but before you can do it, you need to know your equipment specs.

Your PMP3000's mic inputs are low impedance, as are the mics you will need to use if you're going to be running them through a 100' snake. You can plug a low impedance mic's 20' cable directly into those mic inputs. You can even plug the 20' mic cable into another 20' mic cable and plug that into the mic input. As somebody else pointed out on this thread, a snake is just a bunch of really long mic cables in one "wrapper". So take your mic, plug a 20' cable into it, and plug that into the snake's stage box.

To accomodate your high impedance Shure Green Bullet hamonica mic, get an inline Hi-Z to Low-Z transformer. A bunch of companies make them, and IIRC, Hosa makes one that is less than $15.00. If you can't find one at your local Guitar Center or other music store, you can get one online from www.musiciansfriend.com.

I agree with you regarding the way mixer inputs are described, but like it or not, a mic input = 1, a stereo line input = 2, a stereo effect return = 2, and a stereo tape input = 2; add 'em up and that's how many inputs they advertise. I personally think it should be a mic input = 1, a stereo line input = 1, and nothing else counts, but they don't let me make the rules. So we have to live with what we've got.

My understanding is that you are short a few mic inputs. Just get a Behringer unpowred mixer and plug it into one of the stereo inputs on your PMP3000. You can get one with 4 mic inputs + effects for < $110; if you don't need the effects the same mixer without them is < $90.

This should be a smooth and easy way of doing what you want to do without throwing down a ton of cash. If I've misunderstood or missed one of your issues, or if you have any questions, post 'em here and I'll get back to you.

 

[stevieb]

J R:

IMO, your options come down to two:

1. Use what you have, and mix from the side of the stage. This will work, won't cost you anything, and will become several good lessons (like, ask for unbiased opinions before you buy, and "How To Mix From Back Stage,") and you will get some excercise in, running from the stage to the middle of the room to check levels...

2. Buy a true 16-channel passive mixer, and use your snake as intended, and use the Behringer mixer/amp as your power amp- place it on stage and connect the snake's returns to the Behringer's line-level inputs. All in all, this will probably be the cheapest way to go.

OR

1.5 Get a smaller mixer and use it to supplement your limited number of "real" inputs.

But, PLEASE do not buy a Behringer (or other Made-in-China) board if you go with #2. I rag on Behringer primarily for their mixers, which have that rep I spoke of. I avoid Behringer for that, and another reason: All their gear has "BEHRINGER" screen printed on the back of the piece- as I do some pro gigs, I do not want the taint that is associated, fairly or otherwise, that comes with that brand- and them BLASTING it out to the whole world like that just pisses me off. If I do end up with more Behringer gear (a Beh. headphone amp we have actually outperformed a Rane headphone amp we have,) I would be tempted to PAINT OVER THE BACK END just so the back of my rack, which is what most people see as they walk by, is not so garish.

My REAL rant was about how Behringer, and now Mackie, and others, screw unsuspecting noobs into buying they gear because they SAY "it's a 16-channel board," when it really is not.

Shame, shame, shame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMMa5MsgFdg

 

[bdenton]

All their gear has "BEHRINGER" screen printed on the back of the piece- as I do some pro gigs, I do not want the taint that is associated, fairly or otherwise, that comes with that brand- and them BLASTING it out to the whole world like that just pisses me off. If I do end up with more Behringer gear (a Beh. headphone amp we have actually outperformed a Rane headphone amp we have,) I would be tempted to PAINT OVER THE BACK END just so the back of my rack, which is what most people see as they walk by, is not so garish.

Consider a typical bar gig...

You can maybe get 200 - 300 people in the room. Exactly how many people there would know a Behringer from an Allen & Heath?

Let's say 10 would know the difference. That's only a hair more than 3% of the audience.

So who are you most concerned with? The 3% of the audience who are gear snobs, or the 97% who couldn't care less what kind of gear is being used so long as the beer is cold and the music doesn't sound bad.

Have you looked at the case of a Roland synthesizer lately? A blind man could read their logo at 100 yards. My bass drum head has "Pacific Drums" on it in quite large letters; most bass drums come from the factory with a similarly large logo.

So, the argument that their is something wrong with having a Behringer logo displayed really doesen't hold water if you don't mind having other manufacturer's logos displayed.

There are a lot of kids out there who could and would drop $100 on a Behringer mixer and get started with a fun hobby or possibly a lucrative profession.

But if the price of entry was $500 they'd move on to something else.

Behringer gear has worked well for me, so I'm not going to let somebody's "gear snobbery" get in my way...

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Let's say 10 would know the difference. That's only a hair more than 3% of the audience.

Yeah, but they are the potential clients. On the other hand, I've had people come up to me and say my mix sounded like a CD when I was mixing on a Behringer 3282, which suggests it's more about skill than the gear. Want to sound better? Identify the weakest link in the chain and fix that first. If it's your skill that's the problem then upgrading gear won't help.

 

[mshilarious]

I don't recommend an A&H for the audience, I recommend it for me. First, they have a good functional EQ section, with two sweepable mids I know I can maximize GBF. Six aux sends, four are switchable pre/post fader. A good quality fader. Internally, the A&H is modular, so if a channel goes I can pull that card to work on it while the rest of the mixer soldiers on. Rather than DIY on a lunchbox, I'd rather DIY on a few channels of the A&H (which I did some years ago).

I am not sure what the comparable Behri is, their 16 mic input mixer is too big for rackmount. Maybe the XL1600 with 12 mic inputs is close. $42 per mic input vs. $66 for the MW3. I'll take the MW3. I like it over the comparable Mackie as well, unless subgroups are do or die, then I think I'd take the 14 channel A&H (not a fan of the Mackie's EQ section).

The advantage of the Mackie is everybody's grandmother knows that board, so they might groan when they see it but they can work it.

 

[stevieb]

I never intended this to denigrate into a "Bash the Behr" thread.