i offer free mastering try it now!

[AMcB]

Well if it's a frisbee. But if it's a baseball. And he's he's playing baseball. Then that is most definately baseball. Same thing here.

 

[Chili]

That's actually a reasonable argument, but it would still elevate the perceived importance of mastering, which to the average homereccer is none . . .

I don't get why you think that. If a home recordist wants to put out an album, it's got to be mastered, hether it's CD or downloads. He can do it himself or he can hire out.

You're correct. Consistency is a bitch in this case (note my original post was before fala implied he was interested in cash at some point, or at least before I noticed that). Can't win here. So we either let the falas of the world be, or I kick out Waltz et al. I guess I'm going with the former. I don't like any of this though, just doesn't seem to be anything much I can do about it. Not unlike the mic board, really.

I don't think anybody ever got banned for free mastering though

I did send Fala a PM early one warning against spamming the board. I'm not sure if he knows to check PM's because he hasn't responded yet.

 

[Gizzmo0815]

Incorrect. That is the job of the mixing engineer.

That's kind of what I'm talking about. You can't just say something like "incorrect" to my definition of mastering and call it good. Because by todays' standards...for better or worse, like it or not...those things I described in my definition ARE the types of things that are happening in mastering studios worldwide. I'm sure that there are many, possibly even a majority that stick to their guns and only do their mastering by the strictest definition of the term. But probably the lines between mix engineer and mastering engineer will continue to be blurred as home recording becomes more and more of a popular method of music creation and production.

It is the mastering engineer's job to assemble and massage what the mixing engineer created into something ready for duplication and or distribution on the media for which it is intended. There are not other legitimate definitions that deviate greatly from that main theme.

Your description of mastering here is so vague that I think it would only serve to continue to blur the lines to those that DON'T have years of experience with the ins and outs of audio production, as you do. And frankly, they don't care either. That's my point. But you seem to want to make it very important that the walls between tracking, mixing, and mastering stay up. But that's old thinking...and music will do what it does. Evolve. Whether you want it to or not.

The whole idea of using mastering to "improve" what comes out of mixing is a creation of Internet myth, supported by those few actual mastering engineers (only a few of the many, most of which who don't) who see it as a way of increasing their revenue in an age where the big box studios that supplied most of their previous business are disappearing.

But if what you just described is the current trend in professional mastering. Then the damage isn't being done by Fala here. The damage is being done by the mastering engineers themselves.

My problem with that, Gizmo, is not that I am an old man who doesn't like evolving definitions (as others have accused me of many times before), it's that in my time here interacting with the current breed of home recorders, I have seen an alarming majority trend of folks who simply do not wish to learn how to actually mix, and are in too much of a damn hurry to get their stuff published - for no actual reason other than their own impatience - to be bothered with it. They WANT to see faux mastering - i.e. working the 2mix in an effort to turn an unfinished mix into a finished one - as their saving grace that (they believe) allows them to phone in not only the mixing, but the tracking as well.

The very things you're outlining as negatives here I see as positives. Sure...there will be a boatload of garbage that comes of out the wave of home recording studios...but there will be gold. The experts will still be needed to polish it, and the customers will still only want to PURCHASE gold. But gold is entirely relative...I have NO problem dropping a few coins on a song that I like to listen to. And rarely do I give a flying flip how it was mastered. If it sounds good...whether it was mixed and mastered in Bobby Joe's garage or at Sony Studios. I'll buy it. And I don't think I'm alone there either. For I have plenty of artists on my iPod right now, that have not had their music run through the gauntlet of the music production business. I guess that just makes me a part of your problem. Some are just people that put a song on a forum...some are songs I bought off Bandcamp and some are no kidding honest to god published artists who just found a way to make their music sound good. It doesn't matter to me because I like how it all sounds...That's kind of how a lot of the "indie" and underground stuff, which has been popular for decades now works. It's just a different venue for it.

Fala probably isn't gonna sell this stuff. It simply isn't good enough to meet the popular demand. And it won't sell until he becomes good enough to be able to compete with the professionals to CAN provide real mastering services. Until he starts telling 10 year olds that he can make them a rock star, I say let him do his "mastering". And wouldn't you rather he did it here? Where you can actually see what's going on and perhaps give an opinion on it? I'd just recommend toning down the grumpy old man act a bit.

Why should I care what they want? Because it damages the MUSIC to think and act that way. As good as some mastering engineers may be, both the real pros and the amateurs, they are NO substitute for frontloading the obligation to tracking and mixing, it just does not compare. In fact, it's just the opposite, the best mastering results come from the best mixes, not the ones that need mastering to sound good to begin with.

The torch is being passed. Home recording is becoming a majority force in the music world. We're not just building birdhouses here; the homerecorders of today are the architects of tomorrow's music industry.

I am passionate about seeing that torch not be dropped along the way just because of a myth of misinformation that enables laziness or impatience amongst so many home recorders, because it will result in a general decrease in quality of the final product which will be available to everybody over the next few decades.

Very noble of you.

You can tell me all day long that we're on some steep decline into audio oblivion where music will slowly devolve into meaningless drivel and awful recording practices. Hell, we just might evolve ourselves tone deaf at this rate right?

But I don't buy it. Cus the public won't buy it either. If music sucks...it sucks and it gets filtered out with the rest of the suck. If music is good...it's good...and people will pay for it. Or at the very least, people will say nice things about it. Which is all a LOT of home recording artists are looking for (lets not get carried away here...people are aware of what it takes to be famous and rich from a music career...it's beat into us all from childhood, so a lot of us just want to play around with this stuff).

If some people want to misinterpret that as a bully-ish attitude, I can't help that. Thee main reason some folks see that as bullying is because in the 21st century culture many (not all, but a disturbingly large amount of) people want to hear what they want to hear. They ask questions, but if the answer is not what they want it to be, they don't want to be bothered with it.

Your grandpa probably said the same thing about you...and I'm sure I'll say the same about my grandkids, and how their generation just doesn't understand. But they'll still be listening to good music (good being relative to the times) that they like.

And what is most certain in this forum is that any answer that tells someone that the best answer is not sitting on a silver platter for them to just take when they want and how they want, they see it as interfering with their sense of self-entitlement. And anyone who tries to take away their sense of entitlement without their having to earn it or work for it is just being a bully at worst, or an elitist at best.

That response is something no one can do nothing about, no matter how many niceties they try couching it in (I've tried, believe me, as have many others.) Even the nicest most constructive replies are bullying to some folks who just do not what to hear that music production is not something that one can learn to do well in 3 days, or that they can just count on "mastering" as a loophole to let them sidestep that unfortunate truth.

Who's saying anyone is entitled to anything here??? I don't think anyone has even come CLOSE to implying that being GOOD at tracking/mixing/mastering/recording is any less difficult and hard earned than it has always been.

Some folks with the proper knowledge or experience just keep mum just to keep the peace. And so do I - you have no idea how many posts I have NOT made in the interest of just shutting up for a while and letting things ride. But sometimes I do make a stand on principle.

If someone doesn't like it, they can always put me on their ignore list, I'm perfectly OK with that; no one is forcing anyone to listen to my alleged bullying or elitism.

G.

Fala here didn't say he was trying to be a pro...but you're treating him like one. Fala also didn't intend to piss anyone off either, but you're taking it so personal. Fala probably has no idea what either of us are talking about because he's Italian, and you seem to want to make fun of him because his english is a bit off. THAT'S why I'm calling you a bully. It has nothing to do with your opinions on the state of the music world and how the generations of the future are ruining it.

Frankly I just feel like you calling Fala an ass for being amateurish is a little uncalled for. But hey, it certainly does make the discussion more interesting in the long run.

And you don't have to listen to me either. Hell I'm just a bored dude who finds your forum etiquette irritating and decided to say something about it. Again...as I'm entitled to do on a public forum.

 

[mshilarious]

I don't get why you think that. If a home recordist wants to put out an album, it's got to be mastered, hether it's CD or downloads. He can do it himself or he can hire out.

Sure, but replace "mastered" with "mixed" or "tracked". Same thing, but you don't see the same phenomenon with those topics. I don't see people offering free tracking, or too many people lining up to offer mixing services, whether free or for profit (there are a few, but not many). But somehow "mastering" brings out all the loonies.

An average pro mix, completely "unmastered", kills an average homerec mix. I remember once long ago Mixerman posted a 15 second sample of a rough mix he was doing. I about crapped my pants; it was the punchiest thing I'd ever heard.

Or take the mix contests; could "mastering" make any difference between the lowest scoring mixes and the top mixes? Nope. There was no helping them.

So for the homereccer, well I'm sorry but you just have to learn how to mix. There should be nothing sacred about the main stereo bus. At the same time, there ought to be some understanding of what should go there and why.

Translation is the oft-ventured explanation of why an outside set of ears (and monitors) is required. But if the mixing environment is so compromised that the mix is not even close to translating, mastering probably still can't help.

I used to dabble in mastering a bit, but I stopped for two reasons: first, I seemed to be getting worse the more I did it Second, I just got tired of trying to fix stuff via clever techniques that would have taken a few seconds if I had access to the mix . . .

Anyway, once the homereccer sorts of all of those issues, that track is probably good enough to go straight to myspace or soundclick with a couple of dB on the limiter and print it. Yeah, if you're going to fab 1,000 CDs, $500 to a real ME is probably well spent. Not too many people are doing that anymore, because they have run out of room in the basement to store them after the first four CDs didn't sell

 

[philbagg]

The way I see it:

Fala isn't doing anything wrong here. He wants to learn how to master, and is
offering to do it for free for the first song. If somebody here sent him something
and actually liked it, then who's to say it's wrong for them to pay him for more?

I mean sure, you could say that they could have spent their money sending it
to a better mastering engineer who could've done a better job, but that'd be
their fault for not shopping around looking for samples, and THEN making
their mind up.

Now, I know that his English isn't great, but this could've been made a lot clearer
by changing the title of the thread to "I want to learn to master" and requesting
for some mixes to practice on, BEFORE offering it as a professional service.

And when I say "professional", I don't mean "professional" by standard, I mean
"professional" by the true sense of the word; that he plans to make money
from it (without commenting on the quality of his work).

 

[leaningpine]

I personally feel that music is over-mastered, or what ever you want to call it. In the 50's when pre- mastering first came about, there was EQ and compression used, then the 70's rolled around and aural exciters came about and stereo widening and multi band compression, then the 80's started with the overuse of these things and equipment, then the 90's and to today everything had to be squished louder and louder so more equipment was made to fix the aural deficiences that occur when you squash the hell out of a recording. That's why Dark side of the moon 1973 sounds stellar and dark side of the moon remaster 2002 sounds awful.

If the people nowadays could mix the recordings properly without relying on a ME to fix everything recordings would sound 1000 times better. I don't know, it just seems that most of the things that are done in pre mastering don't need to be done

 

[kcearl]

some people here would suck the fun out of a blowjob...

I am also shocked that some here are being accused of being elitist..ive never seen it happen before


best thoughts so far

the homerecorders of today are the architects of music tomorrow...


seriously, get over yourselves, you're all just a preset in my Ozone...I feel a song coming on.... lol

 

[moresound]

some people here would suck the fun out of a blowjob...

I am also shocked that some here are being accused of being elitist..ive never seen it happen before


best thoughts so far

the homerecorders of today are the architects of music tomorrow...


seriously, get over yourselves, you're all just a preset in my Ozone...I feel a song coming on.... lol

I think I know where you can get it mastered for free!!

 

[kcearl]

lol........

 

[moresound]

Now to find some free art cover design!
Then we're all set

 

[miroslav]

But Fala is not “scamming” anyone. He's just telling people that he'll master a song for free.

…….

And I reiterate that Fala hasn't actually talked about money amounts anywhere on this thread...because I have read it...from page one to this post.

Gizzmo…no one said he was scamming, I even said clearly that I didn’t think that was his reason for showing up….
…however, as noble as his offer of “free” mastering sounded…he actually WAS looking forward to charging money:

If the first track is free, whats the rate for the songs after?

first, think satisfy you....
Then we'll talk.... but are very cheap

I don’t fault him for wanting to charge for a service…but let’s be clear about his intent.

I'm sorry that you take issue with his use of the term mastering, but all you're doing here is continuing to present yourself as an elitist.

………….

I know you and Miroslav aren't mastering engineers, I've been reading this forum long enough for that. I do know that you are ALWAYS trying to pull threads like this (which is just a dude who is doing what he thinks is mastering, and really not hurting anyone) into a discussion about how mastering is so misunderstood. But all of this doesn't help anyone...it just makes them not want to talk to you about it. So they'll go elsewhere and probably miss out on some of the important things you could teach them.

…………

In short...what Fala is offering is not really Mastering. You're right. But don't be so freakin' adamant about making it clear that he doesn't know what he's doing. It makes you look like a bully..

The only reason Glen and I have been so adamant about what IS mastering…is ‘cuz you and a couple of others have been so adamant that it really isn’t all that important as long as Fala “isn’t hurting anyone”.
You’ve been waxing poetic in the opposite direction and attacking us because we feel it’s important to clarify the differences between real mastering and playing at mastering…which continues to be ignored in this thread by exactly those people who should be paying attention.

We are not the ones hurting Fala and other newbies…it’s YOUR type of perspectives that do that because you want to say it’s OK not to have to know how to do things all the way, the right way...and because we insist on it, that makes us “elitists”…??? Well then what does it make those that only want do things half-assed....hacks?

I’ve seen that BS argument so many times from newbies...on many other forums, not just here.
The minute higher quality is brought up and the need to learn about audio and to lift up the standards instead of looking for shortcuts that lower them…many newbies will balk, just like they do when someone points out that their cheap gear can’t get them the same quality as high-end gear….they don’t want to hear it!
If the point is pressed, then words like “elitist” or “snob” almost always get tossed back at the messenger, because that’s the only way they can justify their misinformed newbie positions.
Yet you want the “elitist snobs” to teach and help the newbies…but it has to be on the newbie’s terms and without any pain to them…served up like so much cookies and milk….???

 

[mixmkr]

Seems like people have to have rules "what mastering is" and isn't..
Complete balony.

If I sent two 8 bit .wav files and someone just plopped them on a CD...redbook or not...that's mastering in its' most basic form to me.

You decide what you want to pay for, but end the useless banter what is and what isn't.

 

[miroslav]

If I sent two 8 bit .wav files and someone just plopped them on a CD...redbook or not...that's mastering in its' most basic form to me.

Then get in touch with Fala...that much I'm sure he can do for you....for free.

 

[kcearl]

Yet you want the “elitist snobs” to teach and help the newbies…but it has to be on the newbie’s terms and without any pain to them…served up like so much cookies and milk….???

hahaha

yeah and being mocking, yes mocking in some cases, vague at best, and condescending is the way to do it?

if that were the case you can take "mastering" and shove it up your arse

I'd rather read books myself, as I have done, than dare bother you masters of your domain for you unlearnable knowledge

and least Waltz, who as far as I can tell is the only man who actually makes a living from mastering on this thread, was courteous and friendly...you and southside gland are your usual gruesome twosome...oh but you were being helpful, tough love 'n all that

no wonder many of us stay out of some of these forums...full of snobs that have no reason to be...the saying big fish in small ponds springs to mind

 

[miroslav]

hahaha

yeah and being mocking, yes mocking in some cases, vague at best, and condescending is the way to do it?

Coming from you ...that's praise from a true master of the art form.....

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...go read a book, do us a favor.

 

[kcearl]

well that showed me...Im off to read a book..

you be sure to keep your nose firmly up Glens arse while he shows these n00bs a thing or two...Ill get back to you once Ive finished reading "Mastering by Self Important Gobshites, Vol II"

 

[mixmkr]

Then get in touch with Fala...that much I'm sure he can do for you....for free.

why?

I sent my last cd to Waltz, and he did a great job. paid him too.

one thing that seems to get omitted by some that claim to be pros around here, is the business courtesy and manners. Why would I want to pay and work with someone who is a jerk?

Blue Bear Sound comes to mind. I think the guy had brilliant abilities, great studio, but was so condescending to everyone, his public relation skills were zero. I'm sure he gets lots of business, but I can see how much he probably lost too. And unfortunately, he'd probably be the first one to tell you he didn't care.

 

[Monkey Allen]

To me, fala offering some mastering is a bit like a kid who tells his parents he's a cowboy or a pirate or any of a million other things a kid can claim to be...mature, sensible and level headed parents won't immediatley take that kid to a psychiatrist concerned that their kid really is a pirate or a cowboy and they won't start drilling the kid with serious questions concerning the nature of cowboys or pirates...they will just smile and nod and tell their kid, 'sure, sure you're a cowboy...now go have fun in the yard with all your toy guns'...

Just like poor old fala is having fun with whatever gear he's got.

I suppose it's fun to say you can 'master'...it's fun to use the big words...but it's not fun to watch a parent cut down, chastise and belittle a kid for pretending to be a cowboy and trying to have fun...that's just sad

 

[miroslav]

The developing comedy here is that the amount of time we spent "bashing" Fala for what he doesn't know...now pales in comparison to the counter-bashing aimed at Glen and me, basically, for what we do know.

And now, the bottom feeders like kcearl are showing up to pick at the scraps, like a hyena, once the lions have finished feasting.

Bon Appétit!