How important are lyrics to you ...and why ?

[Letters4Loretta]

Okay, I'm gonna answer this once and right =D

We listen and play music because it is our passion, our passion of art. That is why we spend our lives on it, right. Well, other things are art to, even if they are not personally to you. For example, poetry, I love it, but I bet our friend mr. Greg doesn't care for them much haha.

Well what I'm getting at is if you wanna make poetic lyrics or something, your gonna turn some of your audience off (the ones who dislike deep lyrics) but your gonna attract some different audience who like to hear meaningful lyrics.

Sooooo, if you like to put time in your lyrics and make them totally poetic you have no reason not to because your just doing art and people will take notice because your doin yar thang. And if it's not yar thang, it doesn't matter because you'll still have an audience goin on fer ya.

deuces


<3 Austen

 

[Manslick]

Scanning is fitting together in a regular, rather than an irregular way, often using the same amount of syllables in each line - eg;
"To understand this little rhyme
You first must tap your foot in time"


or the same amount of syllables every two lines, eg;


"Please allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith".

Reason I mentioned it in the OP, I was reminded of a friend with whom I always used to argue about this. He felt song lyrics should always 'scan' {that was the term he used} and I never felt they had to. Sometimes they will, other times they won't. He felt that if other people were going to sing along, words had to be regular and simple. I used to argue that if you like a song, you'll go with all it's funky lyrical twists and turns whether they fit easilly or not. In fact, you may not even realize it. But I was very much in the minority there ! So I thought it might be a consideration for people as they thought about their answers.

Re: scan - nope. You should look up Scansion.

I think your friend has this term confused with meter.

scansion n. Analysis of verse into metrical patterns. Scansion is a process not an end result. So asking if they have to scan makes no sense.

Ask if they should follow some poetic pattern like iambic pentameter or limerick, which can be in anapestic or amphibrachic meter.

But I really want to write a song where the verses are limericks and the bridge is a haiku.

Man isn't google amazing .

 

[gecko zzed]

Re: scan - nope. You should look up Scansion.

I think your friend has this term confused with meter.

scansion n. Analysis of verse into metrical patterns. Scansion is a process not an end result. So asking if they have to scan makes no sense.

Ask if they should follow some poetic pattern like iambic pentameter or limerick, which can be in anapestic or amphibrachic meter.

But I really want to write a song where the verses are limericks and the bridge is a haiku.

Man isn't google amazing .

I reckon scan is okay. See its use as a verb here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scan_(poetry)

and also "read metrically; scan verses"

Scansion is the noun that defines the process (i.e. the analysis), to scan is the verb (i.e. to perform the analysis). "Does it scan?" is acceptable shorthand for "does it conform to a metrical pattern?".

 

[Manslick]

I reckon scan is okay. See its use as a verb here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scan_(poetry)

and also "read metrically; scan verses"

Scansion is the noun that defines the process (i.e. the analysis), to scan is the verb (i.e. to perform the analysis). "Does it scan?" is acceptable shorthand for "does it conform to a metrical pattern?".

Nope – he used it in a colloquial sense. I’m sure he and his friend knew exactly what it meant.

Now I’m gonna go bark me some squirrels.

 

[grimtraveller]

Nope – he used it in a colloquial sense. I’m sure he and his friend knew exactly what it meant.

Yeah, in England certain words can get used in a less than literal way. It's long been felt that half the population can't speak English !
That said, until your post I'd never even heard of 'scansion'. It almost sounds made up !
When my mate and I used to talk about this, I used to mention "unusual meters" and he'd talk about the meter 'scanning'. I take on board what yourself and Gekko Zzed are saying. Despite the variance, I guess what I was asking people to consider is whether or not a simple regularity is consciously favoured over a "Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup, they slither while they pass, they slip away across the universe" type meter !

 

[MMensch]

Lyrics are THE LEAST important part of a song. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional and wrong.

I think that's true in a general sense - chart success certainly never depended on good lyrics, for better or for worse, though for me personally, lyrics are very important. I think that's where I come as a listener - I've always been able to get into a band much more if their lyrics talked to me, though I suppose I may be partly confusing good lyrics with simply being fond of a band for no particular reason (Jarvis Cocker writes brilliant lyrics, but I've always hated Pulp, for example). Secondly, I'm much more of a lyricist than a musician/composer, so I always use lyrics as my starting point, which might occasionally work against me (I've certainly been guilty of overburdening a song with too much lyrics before). However, this hasn't discouraged me, and it's simply the way I like to work.

Perhaps there's another thing I should mention. I come from Slovenia, a country of two million people. Consequently, most bands are under the impression that they have to write English lyrics in order to be relevant (despite the fact that they may never play outside of their home town). I used to do this to, but I realised at one point that really good lyrics in my mother tongue touch me in the way that English lyrics simply never do, and it's a feeling I really came to appreciate. So lately, I've been concentrating on writing Slovene lyrics with the intention of really pushing myself to the limit ... not in the least to make my songs stand out in this way. Now if Greg's right, it's a losing venture, but I don't feel I can compete on the merits of the music alone.

 

[Seafroggys]

I didn't read the thread, but Greg's initial comment (rather, his second post for clarification) is pretty much spot on.

While I have occasionally been moved by actual words, it is rare. I mean, if the actual words were so important, I'd think Ronnie James Dio would be silly. But he's not. He's awesome. And its not because of his words.

 

[miroslav]

I mean, if the actual words were so important, I'd think Ronnie James Dio would be silly. But he's not. He's awesome. And its not because of his words.

Different style of music...different focus.
I agree about his songs/lyrics...but there are songs by other writers that completely hang on the lyrics, and without them the songs wouldn't have any lasting impact.

Heck...take most Beatles songs (even the ones with weird lyrics)...the lyrics are key in every song...even the Love Me Do stuff.

The thing is…lately songwriting has dramatically taken a back seat to image and performance for many artists. It's all about the flash, the style or those that focus mostly on licks and beats, and lyrics are just an afterthought, just something for the singer to use to sing the melody with (which can also be rather meaningless in many cases).....but there are still many songwriters who write strong songs around strong lyrics.
There's no global answer...it depends on the songs and the songwriters.

I’m not saying that lyrics always have to be lofty and poetic, but they shouldn’t always be just some amusing/quirky ramblings either, otherwise your songs will always come off like novelty crap.
Almost all the more popular Rock/Pop/Country/Soul/etc songs of the last 50 years have lyrics that make the songs memorable. Without the lyrics many of those songs would have made little impact.

If your lyrics are meaningless and unimportant to the music...you made them that way.

Words and Music

 

[Greg_L]

Different style of music...different focus.
I agree about his songs/lyrics...but there are songs by other writers that completely hang on the lyrics, and without them the songs wouldn't have any lasting impact.

Heck...take most Beatles songs (even the ones with weird lyrics)...the lyrics are key in every song...even the Love Me Do stuff.

The thing is…lately songwriting has dramatically taken a back seat to image and performance for many artists. It's all about the flash, the style or those that focus mostly on licks and beats, and lyrics are just an afterthought, just something for the singer to use to sing the melody with (which can also be rather meaningless in many cases).....but there are still many songwriters who write strong songs around strong lyrics.
There's no global answer...it depends on the songs and the songwriters.

I’m not saying that lyrics always have to be lofty and poetic, but they shouldn’t always be just some amusing/quirky ramblings either, otherwise your songs will always come off like novelty crap.
Almost all the more popular Rock/Pop/Country/Soul/etc songs of the last 50 years have lyrics that make the songs memorable. Without the lyrics many of those songs would have made little impact.

If your lyrics are meaningless and unimportant to the music...you made them that way.

Words and Music

You're stuck in the 80's. No one uses flash anymore. Not in rock anyway. They just roll out of bed and play in whatever they slept in. Lyrical content has made a huge resurgence in the past decade. Wimpy singer/songwriter types are all the rage right now. And wouldn't you know it, music sucks these days.

 

[Seafroggys]

You're stuck in the 80's. No one uses flash anymore. Not in rock anyway. They just roll out of bed and play in whatever they slept in. Lyrical content has made a huge resurgence in the past decade. Wimpy singer/songwriter types are all the rage right now. And wouldn't you know it, music sucks these days.

Hahaha, ain't that the truth.

I don't get why people insist that its still all about image these days in rock music. Maybe in pop music, but that hasn't changed in how long?

 

[miroslav]

I didn't realize we were talking only about one style of Rock music and nothing else AFA lyrics.
I thought we were talking about lyrics in all the modern music genres.

AFA "flash"...yeah, the "grunge" crowd is still doing that worn out look, showing up for gigs looking like they just got done mowing the lawn or changing the oil in their car... ...but step away from that, and a lot music today IS about flash/style/image/dance...etc...and that's the music that often puts the lyrics on the backburner...and that really sucks.
Some of the extreme "alt" crowd ain't doing much better...heck with some of them, both the music AND the lyrics suck.

But to get back to the original question...there is still plenty out there with strong lyric content...so unless you want to only focus on one style of music, the notion that lyrics are meaningless and unimportant to the majorly...is unfounded.

Maybe to “you” the individual lyrics mean nothing, or maybe to “you the player” they mean nothing, which is fine...but the majority of the public sure feels differently. I just don’t see too many signing along to guitar leads or drum rolls…
...they focus on the lyrics.

But you know...this discussion really makes little difference to anything.
It's still up to the songwriter to decide how much effort and importance he/she wants to place on crafting good lyrics...or not.
Go with what you think is best.....

 

[Greg_L]

I didn't realize we were talking only about one style of Rock music and nothing else AFA lyrics.
I thought we were talking about lyrics in all the modern music genres.

I am. They all suck. Have you head heard modern pop, country, or rap lately? Tired old blues losers are still singing tired old blues lyrics. Adult contemporary was never any good in any way shape or form. People like my 60 year old mom eat lyrics up. If that's your audience, then just stop playin now.

 

[miroslav]

They all suck. Have you head heard modern pop, country, or rap lately? Tired old blues losers are still singing tired old blues lyrics.

OK...but that's a different discussion.
If you're saying that *today* a lot of lyrics suck...I'm with you on that!
Saying a lot of music today sucks and has unimportant lyrics...is true.
The songwriters made it that way!
But that's not quite the same as saying lyrics are “not important” to the song.

There were (and still are) good tunes with solid lyrics. We songwriters need to do our part to "lift up" the quality, same way we want others to do it. We bitch about crappy music and crappy lyrics...
…so change that.

AFA only the older set caring about lyrics...that's just not true. I'll point out once again that a lot of the public DOES pay attention to lyrics. Women, young, adult and old...pay quite a bit of attention to lyrics.
So give them something worth singing along to!

If your target audience is one that doesn't care...then I could see why lyrics would take a position of lesser importance...but that doesn't apply to all forms of modern music, or across all generations and audiences.

 

[Greg_L]

OK...but that's a different discussion.
If you're saying that *today* a lot of lyrics suck...I'm with you on that!
Saying a lot of music today sucks and has unimportant lyrics...is true.
The songwriters made it that way!
But that's not quite the same as saying lyrics are “not important” to the song.
.

You are the one that brought up "modern". Here, this is what you said:

I thought we were talking about lyrics in all the modern music genres.

You can't agree with me, then disagree just for arguments sake. That's dumb.

I'm not trying to change anything. I don't care who likes my music. If you want to appeal to tweens and old ladies, semi-rock on bro.

 

[miroslav]

You are the one that brought up "modern".

You can't agree with me, then disagree just for arguments sake. That's dumb.

I don't see where that has happened.
We never said this discussion was about any one single type of music or any one narrow time period...did we? Also, when I say "modern music"...I'm talking about everything of the last 50-60 years or so from the time "Rock & Roll" first began, as that was the start of Rock/Pop music as we know it.

I'm not trying to change anything. I don't care who likes my music. If you want to appeal to tweens and old ladies, semi-rock on bro.

Well that's fine...but you're the one that says most current Rock/Pop music sucks....and that lyrics suck and are unimportant in Rock/Pop music.
There is a certain amount of displeasure being voiced by you...I'm just saying, change it then, don't continue to follow it!

AFA appeal...that's a fleeting game.
You may think you are appealing to a certain audience one day, only to find out you're "old news" and no one cares anymore.
My feeling is that performance and novelty stop and wear off at some point...but if we are lucky to leave behind some songs that have wider, lasting appeal (regardless of the audience)...that lives on forever.
And for that to happen...you need lyrics that are memorable and important to the listener!

 

[Greg_L]

I don't see where that has happened.

Check the quote.

We never said this discussion was about any one single type of music or any one narrow time period...did we? Also, when I say "modern music"...I'm talking about everything of the last 50-60 years or so from the time "Rock & Roll" first began, as that was the start of Rock/Pop music as we know it.

50 year old music is not modern music.

Do you hear any auto-tune or rap breakdowns in Little Richard songs?

Well that's fine...but you're the one that says most current Rock/Pop music sucks....and that lyrics suck and are unimportant in Rock/Pop music.
There is a certain amount of displeasure being voiced by you...I'm just saying, change it then, don't continue to follow it!

I don't really care. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as a complaint. I couldn't care less that music sucks now. I don't listen to it.

AFA appeal...that's a fleeting game.
You may think you are appealing to a certain audience one day, only to find out you're "old news" and no one cares anymore.
My feeling is that performance and novelty stop and wear off at some point...but if we are lucky to leave behind some songs that have wider, lasting appeal (regardless of the audience)...that lives on forever.
And for that to happen...you need lyrics that are memorable and important to the listener!

I totally disagree. You are really romanticizing now. The actual words don't mean shit - not even to people that think they're important. The delivery, melody, and cadence mean everything. That's what people connect with. They're not one and the same. 99% of the general public sing the wrong words most of the time anyway. They don't know nor care. They get hooked on melody, which has nothing to do with the actual words. If the actual words mattered so much to those people, we wouldn't need to put them in songs.

 

[miroslav]

50 year old music is not modern music.

Do you hear any auto-tune or rap breakdowns in Little Richard songs?

I'm not sure what you’re getting at or what this really has to do with the discussion anyway?
We are talking about the importance of lyrics in modern, popular music, and that covers a lot more than the last 10-15 years...IMO.
Tell me….where are you making the cutoff ...the 90s...the 80s...the 70s...the 60s...???
What's really different style-wise about today's Rock/Pop compared to the stuff they were doing in the mid-60s!!!???
NOTHING!

They get hooked on melody, which has nothing to do with the actual words. If the actual words mattered so much to those people, we wouldn't need to put them in songs.

Fine...you can continue writing with that view, it's your right.
I'll still put some effort into lyrics that mean something for the song at hand.
I'm not talking about any "lofty" shit...just lyrics that connect with the average listener.
If they didn't care about lyrics...they would all just be humming...mmmmmmmmm.

 

[ido1957]

I have heard audiences singing the words to a tune at concerts. I've never heard them yelling "Am/G/Eb/F" when the singer prompts them to join in.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm not sure what you’re getting at or what this really has to do with the discussion anyway?
We are talking about the importance of lyrics in modern, popular music, and that covers a lot more than the last 10-15 years...IMO.
Tell me….where are you making the cutoff ...the 90s...the 80s...the 70s...the 60s...???
What's really different style-wise about today's Rock/Pop compared to the stuff they were doing in the mid-60s!!!???
NOTHING!

Lol. What?

Surely you're not this naive.

Rock/pop isn't old, but it has sure gone through a wide variety of changes. Each decade can be it's own mini era. Do you really see any similarities between Miley Cyrus and Jerry Lee Lewis? The 50's were the beginning, the 60's introduced brit pop and the hipie movement, the 70's were overblown arena rock and disco, the 80's had new wave, the 90's brought us rap and grunge, the 00's brought us indie singer/songwriter shit. To lump all that together as "modern music" under one umbrella is foolish.

Lol @ connecting with the average listener.

 

[Greg_L]

I have heard audiences singing the words to a tune at concerts. I've never heard them yelling "Am/G/Eb/F" when the singer prompts them to join in.

Sure, but is it really the words? I don't think so. I think they connect with the melody. They don't care what they're singing, as long as it's catchy. Some of the stupidest lyrics in music are the most famous songs. Yellow Submarine? Obla di obla da? Seriously? It's not the literal words. It's the hook. Catchy = melody.

Look at "Born to Run". The most famous part of that song is the "Whooaaah" that Springsteen yelps like a dumb goon.