Audio interface for a 24 channel mixer

[Hades]

Greetings all,

I'm looking for a cost effective* audio interface to get 24 channels to/from a 24 channel mixer and to/from my computer.

So far I've been looking at the MOTU 24IO, or daisy chaining a couple Echo AudioFire 12s.

I don't need pre-amps or anything like that (I have the mixer for that), though a MIDI IN and OUT would be nice so I don't have to get a MIDI interface, like the Echo AudioFire has. This isn't make or break though. I mostly just want 24 channels of 1/4" analog I/O to interface with my mixer. The rack form factor is also preferred for convenience and cleanliness, but not 100% essential if another good option exists.

The MOTU is $1,400, and two Echos are $1,200, so let's consider that price range the upper ceiling.

Are there any other options for 24 channels other than the MOTU 24IO or two Echo AudioFire 12s? Are there good 8 analog I/O rack mount interfaces that when purchased in triplicate would come in under that limit? Are there other 12 or 24 I/O interfaces that I don't know about or that are no longer made and can be found used? Any other suggestions in general?

Thanks in advance for your time and help.

* With a good price-to-performance ratio; as inexpensive as practically possible while still being capable, and in general not sucking and sounding crappy. I understand you gotta pay to play, but I'm just a blue collar bum who wants to have fun; I don't need the best pro gear...But I don't want total crap either. So whatever strikes the best price-performance ratio is what I'm after. If it costs, a grand, for example, then it costs a grand...But I'd rather pay less if possible, if ya know what I mean.

 

[Jim Lad]

You may be guilty of limiting your options by wanting to include your mixer.
There are a number of 8 channel audio interfaces on the market which include one or two ADAT I/O ports. That's an additional 16 channels.
The Behringer ADA8000 is an affordable, rack mounted A/D converter that would suit your needs.
Two of those with the right interface will give you what you need.
It's nice that you have a mixer but at the end of the day, possibly not the right tool for the job.

 

[dementedchord]

i'm beginning to get the impression that jim's full of shit... i've looked at the echos and although they seemed ok i was advised against them by a sales guy i trust... the motu is likely the way i'll go... though i really would like some of the new SSL... but they start with a card for around $3k... but that also has some serious dsp added... what mixer have got??? i'm in the process of hotrodding an old soundcraft series 500 myself... my plan is to take 16 of the SC to 24i/o that leaves 8 outs for monitoring and 8 ins for special pre's ...

 

[Jim Lad]

Sorry about that, Hades.
I've passed my concerns along to the moderators.

 

[RawDepth]

Jim is right about limiting your options with a mixer.

There are two types of mixers, live mixers and studio mixers. Studio mixers have direct outs and tape returns for each channel to accommodate a multitrack recorder. Live mixers do not.

Far too many newbies mistakenly try to use live mixers to record a band while playing live. There is no easy way to tap all 24 channels from a live mixer if your intention is to keep the tracks separated. If instead you get a tap from the master channel, (which is how many usb mixers work,) then all the channels end up mixed to two channels before going to your recorder/computer. Live "mixes" usually such pond scum anyway because it is mixed for the house PA instead of for the recording.

 

[slowmotion]

How about asking what he's doing and what he has before bitching? I don't see how he's limiting his options by using a desk (unless it doesn't have channel outs or returns or even inserts). We don't even know what he is using so chill out.

Hades, do you really need 24 channels in and out at the same time? (I suspect you DO, because you're asking). Are you recording an orchestra or something? Or mixing out of the box maybe?

Let us know a few more details.

 

[dastrick]

There are two types of mixers, live mixers and studio mixers. Studio mixers have direct outs and tape returns for each channel to accommodate a multitrack recorder. Live mixers do not.

This is not true. A lot of live mixers have direct outs. Especially Allen & Heaths.

To answer the OP question. I would get an Alesis HD24. It will have everything that you need. 24 i/0 via 1/4" or ADAT, MIDI, rackmountable, etc., etc., etc.,

If your mixer has direct outs, just run a 1/4" cable from the direct outs to the inputs of the HD24 (or whatever you choose). Even if your mixer does not have direct outs, most mixers have inserts on most every channel. You can use those if you have to.

 

[michaelst]

I had the direct outs on my Midas Venice 320 modified to be post-gain, post-insert, pre-eq, pre-fader.

I connect the direct outs to an Alesis HD24.

I'm able to capture 24 tracks right off the stage and re-mix them on my PC (using N-Tracks), without affect the live house mix.

If there is a bad track, for whatever reason, a new one can be recorded and re-inserted into the original mix.

For example, the acoustic guitar on one song had a bad buzz (needed a ground lift). I mixed down the track to stereo, without the acoustic. Sent the track to the musician. He recorded his guitar part, burn it to a CD and sent it back to me. I remixed it into the song and you cannot tell thats its not the original.

Here's a live performance recording: While My Guitar Gentley Weeps

Replaced the accoustic guitar, added tamborine.

 

[Hades]

You may be guilty of limiting your options by wanting to include your mixer.
There are a number of 8 channel audio interfaces on the market which include one or two ADAT I/O ports. That's an additional 16 channels.
The Behringer ADA8000 is an affordable, rack mounted A/D converter that would suit your needs.
Two of those with the right interface will give you what you need.
It's nice that you have a mixer but at the end of the day, possibly not the right tool for the job.

Interesting. I'm not sure that's what I want to do, but to follow your logic here so as to not dismiss prematurely...You're saying to skip the mixer, link up a couple of those 8 channel A/D converters to an 8 channel audio interface, and then mix on the computer?

Assuming I'm following there, I have to ask: what does that give me over having a physical mixer, aside from the obvious of not having a mixer? The cost of the three units you describe approaches the cost of a 24 channel audio interface, and it would seem to me that the 24 channel audio interface might be a more straightforward and elegant solution, rather than introducing multiple pieces of new hardware...?

I completely admit that I could be wrong and completely off base, so don't take that as criticism or me being stupid. I'm just trying to understand.

i've looked at the echos and although they seemed ok i was advised against them by a sales guy i trust... the motu is likely the way i'll go.

Is this the general consensus? That the MOTU 24IO is preferable to a couple Echo AudioFire 12s?

what mixer have got???

Right now I'm leaning towards picking up an Allen and Heath ZED-24, though the ZED-22FX is tempting given the built-in time-based effects. I can't seem to find if the effects can be applied to each channel individually or only to the output of the mixer. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of reviews and first-hand reports for the ZED-24 or 22FX as everyone seems to focus on the R-16. For example, any time anyone asks about them on gearslutz.com, someone always points the person to the big R-16 thread, heh. But I guess I'm leaning towards the regular ZED-24 anyway, and running outboard effects.

I know that's not a subject appropriate for this particular forum, but opinions on that and other possible mixers are welcome, even if it's just via PM.

All I know is that I want to stay away from a Behringer desk, and the Mackies don't turn me on either. No offense to anyone using those brands; it's just my personal choice. I know I'll eventually outgrow those units, so I'd prefer to start with something a step or two or three up already. I know from other hobbies, that nothing sucks more than rapidly being limited by your gear after getting into something.

i'm in the process of hotrodding an old soundcraft series 500 myself... my plan is to take 16 of the SC to 24i/o that leaves 8 outs for monitoring and 8 ins for special pre's ...

I barely know an XLR from a MIDI cable right now, but that does sound cool.

Sorry about that, Hades.
I've passed my concerns along to the moderators.

No need for apologies from anyone. It's the Internet, right? There's personal politics wherever you go, so it's no big deal. I'm not offended at all. I don't have a dog in the fight; I'm just trying to learn. So y'all's personal business with one another is between you guys.

I'm sure if I stick around long enough, I'm bound to get in a scrap or two with someone eventually too.

There are two types of mixers, live mixers and studio mixers. Studio mixers have direct outs and tape returns for each channel to accommodate a multitrack recorder. Live mixers do not.

Okay, now we're back in territory I'm familiar with. Yes, I do know this. I apologize for not specifying my intentions. I see now that would have cleared a lot up for you guys. I'll do that now:

I don't see how he's limiting his options by using a desk (unless it doesn't have channel outs or returns or even inserts). We don't even know what he is using so chill out.

Hades, do you really need 24 channels in and out at the same time? (I suspect you DO, because you're asking). Are you recording an orchestra or something? Or mixing out of the box maybe?

Let us know a few more details.

Very perceptive. To give you a little background, I'm a rock/blues guitarist and a classically trained pianist and cellist. Yes, I may be recording orchestras and large bands at some point, as well as your standard rock band. Also, I want to do a lot of my own compositions using some MIDI instrumentation (I can't always have an orchestra or a band around after all), which as you know can take up a lot of tracks; I have an interest in electronic music so I'll be exploring that for fun as well. The rig I'm building up may be used for live sound on occasion, and naturally it may travel to concerts and gigs for recording...But mostly, it will be an "instrument" that I play and use to record at home.

I view the whole rig as not just a tool but an instrument in its own right. At home, I'll be running my guitar(s) into an isolation cabinet so I can get that sweet saturated power tube sound without blowing my ears away and ticking off the neighbors, then add time-based effects after distortion, where it sounds best. And of course, with MIDI, I'll be able to compose and play backing tracks, entire compositions, etc., which I'll have to play back a gazillion times when adding new parts in. So I'll be "playing" the whole thing, not just using it to record. This is part of the appeal of having a physical mixer and not using software, too. I know I can do all this right on the computer, but it's not the same. All you musicians out there almost certainly know what I'm talking about. I'm a knobs and switches kinda guy anyway...

To answer the OP question. I would get an Alesis HD24. It will have everything that you need. 24 i/0 via 1/4" or ADAT, MIDI, rackmountable, etc., etc., etc.,

If your mixer has direct outs, just run a 1/4" cable from the direct outs to the inputs of the HD24 (or whatever you choose). Even if your mixer does not have direct outs, most mixers have inserts on most every channel. You can use those if you have to.

I connect the direct outs to an Alesis HD24.

I'm able to capture 24 tracks right off the stage and re-mix them on my PC (using N-Tracks), without affect the live house mix.

Okay, now there's an interesting idea! I presume running my audio into the HD24 would also free up some computer horsepower too, eh? A few other questions:

1) Can you still record straight to the computer through the HD24, treating it like a regular ol' interface? I have no specific reason for asking, except general curiosity, so no need to get wrapped around the axle on this one...I'm just asking.

2) How does it interface with the computer anyway? Does its ethernet connection have enough bandwidth to accommodate 24 tracks or is it slow to transfer to your DAW? How easy is it to use your DAW to manipulate your tracks if you want to? I see it has a FireWire interface option, so that's probably a promising upgrade...But it looks like you have to pull the drive to use it? I guess what I'm getting at is, if I still want to use Cubase or Reaper or whatever, how easy will it be for me to do so? Will I have to constantly fight the Alesis? Struggling with my equipment is something I'd prefer to avoid when possible, so if recording straight to the computer would be easier (?) then I might prefer that option.

3) Is ADAT still a viable technology? I have no source to cite for this notion, but I was under the vague impression that ADAT was "old"...? Obviously it still works great and always will work, and I know that technology is always advancing so everything gets old eventually. But I don't want to be the only guy still using ADAT machines in 5 or 10 years either, haha. What's the future like for ADAT? Is it still a good option in the face of the more prevalent direct-to-computer methods?

4) How compatible are ADAT recordings with other mediums? Will I be stuck in my own little ADAT world, collaboratively isolated from the rest of the DAW universe? I don't want to run into any "oh, well you're using ADAT, I can't help you." If you know what I mean...

5) How transparent to the creative process is the HD24? Is it easy to use or do you constantly have to screw with it and press a thousand buttons to even do simple things like play your track(s) back?

Here's a live performance recording: While My Guitar Gentley Weeps

That's a good recording, Sir. Well done. I listened to it several times and enjoyed it. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone for their input so far. Sorry it's taken me a day to get back...I've been doing a little reading up on your ideas.

 

[NewAgeMuttLange]

I'd go with the MOTU, but as a MOTU user I'd say I'm biased...

so yeah..

-Paul

 

[NewAgeMuttLange]

also.. if you can deal with an older unit check out ebay for MOTU gear.. I got my MOTU 2408mkI and PCI-324 for 200 bucks.... it's works very well considering the heap of a PC i'm using...

 

[Hades]

also.. if you can deal with an older unit check out ebay for MOTU gear.. I got my MOTU 2408mkI and PCI-324 for 200 bucks.... it's works very well considering the heap of a PC i'm using...

No problems with older, used gear at all! That's sorta why I started this thread...To maybe get some ideas that aren't current and/or mainstream. It's easy to drop $1,400 on a 24IO, but if there's something a guy can spend $500 on and do the same thing, then why not, eh?

About the 2408MKx series: I assume I'll have to hook three of them up together to get the 24 channels of in and out, correct? Or am I missing a 12 or 24 I/O version?

 

[michaelst]

Okay, now there's an interesting idea! I presume running my audio into the HD24 would also free up some computer horsepower too, eh? A few other questions:

1) Can you still record straight to the computer through the HD24, treating it like a regular ol' interface? I have no specific reason for asking, except general curiosity, so no need to get wrapped around the axle on this one...I'm just asking.

The HD24 uses an IDE drive to record. There is no direct connection to a PC. Once the tracks are recorded, they are transferred to the PC, becoming .wav files on the PC.

2) How does it interface with the computer anyway? Does its ethernet connection have enough bandwidth to accommodate 24 tracks or is it slow to transfer to your DAW? How easy is it to use your DAW to manipulate your tracks if you want to? I see it has a FireWire interface option, so that's probably a promising upgrade...But it looks like you have to pull the drive to use it? I guess what I'm getting at is, if I still want to use Cubase or Reaper or whatever, how easy will it be for me to do so? Will I have to constantly fight the Alesis? Struggling with my equipment is something I'd prefer to avoid when possible, so if recording straight to the computer would be easier (?) then I might prefer that option.

I do use the Alesis fireport interface and can transfer 24 tracks of a 4 minute song in about 3 minutes. It fireport costs about $200. Otherwise an ftp interface is about 10 times slower.

3) Is ADAT still a viable technology? I have no source to cite for this notion, but I was under the vague impression that ADAT was "old"...? Obviously it still works great and always will work, and I know that technology is always advancing so everything gets old eventually. But I don't want to be the only guy still using ADAT machines in 5 or 10 years either, haha. What's the future like for ADAT? Is it still a good option in the face of the more prevalent direct-to-computer methods?

this is not adat technology. It is recorded directly to an ide hard drive in a proprietary format. But transfers to a PC as a uncompressed .wav file. You can set it to record at 24/96 or 24/48(which is what I use)

4) How compatible are ADAT recordings with other mediums? Will I be stuck in my own little ADAT world, collaboratively isolated from the rest of the DAW universe? I don't want to run into any "oh, well you're using ADAT, I can't help you." If you know what I mean...

see above. Once on your PC, they are .wav files

5) How transparent to the creative process is the HD24? Is it easy to use or do you constantly have to screw with it and press a thousand buttons to even do simple things like play your track(s) back?

When I set up my front of house for a live show, the band often does not even know I've also set up my HD24. I have a custom 24 channel balanced 1/4 snake that takes me 8 minutes to hook up. To record a song, I slide my finger down the 'arm track' buttons, then press 'record'. when the song is over, I press stop.

That's a good recording, Sir. Well done. I listened to it several times and enjoyed it. Thanks.

Thanks. I think its pretty amazing. Talk about capturing the moment. One danger tho, when the performers are 'off', it's painfully, and embaressingly obvious.

 

[RawDepth]

About the 2408MKx series: I assume I'll have to hook three of them up together to get the 24 channels of in and out, correct? Or am I missing a 12 or 24 I/O version?

That product was a good suggestion.

The latest model is 2408 MK3. It comes in two versions, the core system and the expander. The core system includes main breakout box and the pci card for your computer. The expander version only includes the breakout box. (This because you can plug up to four breakout boxes into one pci card.)

A single breakout box has 8 analog ins and 8 outs. It also has 24 ADAT ins and outs so you can expand to other gear and it passes it through to your computer. It also has 24 Tascam TDIF ins and outs. It also has two channel S/PDIF ins and outs. It also has 2 monitor speaker outs and headphone outs. So, it is almost like having a whole patch bay in one box.

It's a damn fine unit because it is so versatile. For example, if you wanted to add 8 more analog ins for a drum set, all you would need is a cheapo ADA8000. Connect it via ADAT cable and presto, 8 more channels. Or you could plug a MOTU 24 I/O into the pci card to add 24 more analog channels.

If you could get one used for less than half the cost of a new one, you would be kicking ass. MOTU is decent quality stuff.

(BTW, ADAT is not dead. It is still used widely because it can transfer 8 separate channels of audio simultaneously through one cable at any sample rate.)

Another consideration would be RME HDSP9652 pci card. It has 24 ins and outs of ADAT, 2 ins and outs of S/PDIF, expansion cards for analog ins and outs, and MIDI. Another good quality company.

You could hook up a 24 channel digital mixer via ADAT and have everything you wished for.

Go read about these products at their sites for more understanding.

 

[Hades]

Go read about these products at their sites for more understanding.

Doing that right now. Thanks!

Incidentally RawDepth, thanks to that last post, I now also understand what Jim Lad was saying earlier...I think what he's saying is use the Behringer ADA8000 to convert the analog signal from the mixer to digital and feed it to my interface which is connected to the computer. Then vice versa on the return to the mixer, with the ADA8000 changing the digital signal from the computer back to analog and into the mixer. That way, all I need is a cheap(er) interface with an ADAT connection, and three ADA8000s. Right?

Using the MOTU 2408 MK3 as you're saying, as my interface, I'd have a ton of flexibility that I otherwise wouldn't have with just the 24IO.

Am I picking up what y'all are layin' down now?

 

[RawDepth]

...Am I picking up what y'all are layin' down now?

Exact-a-lack-a-ley! The light is coming on.

 

[Jim Lad]

Incidentally RawDepth, thanks to that last post, I now also understand what Jim Lad was saying earlier...I think what he's saying is use the Behringer ADA8000 to convert the analog signal from the mixer to digital and feed it to my interface which is connected to the computer. Then vice versa on the return to the mixer, with the ADA8000 changing the digital signal from the computer back to analog and into the mixer. That way, all I need is a cheap(er) interface with an ADAT connection, and three ADA8000s. Right?

Using the MOTU 2408 MK3 as you're saying, as my interface, I'd have a ton of flexibility that I otherwise wouldn't have with just the 24IO.

Am I picking up what y'all are layin' down now?

There you go!
I have the Echo Mona and Behringer ADA8000 for my PC so that gives me 12 individual channels in the DAW.
I also have the Korg D3200 stand alone recorder which can act as a mixer if I wanted to do live recordings. Again, that gives me 12 or 16 (not sure) individual channels to load into the DAW.
They are both much more than I will ever need.
The Alesis HD24 looks like an excellent method also.
The whole point is that whichever method you choose should involve using equipment that was designed to record and being consistent.
A set up such as yours will get complicated enough just doing a live performance.
You should probably invest in a digital camera or cell phone to keep track of your live settings too.
As for the personal attack up there. That's not okay. I don't know the person and it's not what I come here for.
+1 on MOTU, by the way. I've never owned any of their products but they come loaded with features and get rave reviews.

 

[RawDepth]

...The Alesis HD24 looks like an excellent method also...

I was thinking of buying one of those about five years ago so I could do live remote recording in nightclubs. Someone told me that they worked good for recording but the editing part was somewhat limited and cumbersome. And that copying the large files into your DAW took all afternoon too.

I don't know that for sure, I am just repeating hear-say. I never did buy it. I think I decided against it due to the limited recording time not working well for long winded live shows. (But maybe today's version has a larger hard drive. I don't know.)

 

[Jim Lad]

The stand alones are all fairly cumbersome for editing but nothing records like them.
Transferring files is tedious but so is finding a glitch. Can't fix those.
I record on the Korg and edit on the PC.
Many people do.
80 gigs is pretty hard to use up so even recording a full band, you should be able to go all night.
The Tascam Neo is another affordable choice.

 

[Hades]

Alright, thanks for the input Guys...Most enlightening!

Going the MOTU 2408 + Behringer ADA8000 route definitely seems like the most flexible and inexpensive way to go for sure. There's a couple MK3s on eBay right now going for $500-$550 with the card, so that's a substantial savings.

The MK2s are even less and they seem to be about the same thing; one guy is selling one for under $200 with the card. That's a heck of a steal if they're about the same thing. Is the major difference that the MK2 is 24-bit/48 kHz and the MK3 is 24-bit/96 kHz? I've got a lot of 44 and 48 kHz mp3s and they sound fine, so is there any practical issue in having a 44/48 kHz only unit? Even the Alesis HD24 isn't recording at 96 kHz without the upgrade or getting the newer XR model...Because if the MK2 is still a good unit, it looks like I could get into 24 channels for $600-$700, and maybe about $500 if I get used ADA8000s too--which is awesome!

Only minor bummer about the MOTU units is that I'll have to look for a cheap rack MIDI interface too...Oh well.

I was thinking of buying one of those about five years ago so I could do live remote recording in nightclubs. Someone told me that they worked good for recording but the editing part was somewhat limited and cumbersome. And that copying the large files into your DAW took all afternoon too.

That's my concern with going that route too. It definitely seems like a cool option, but there seems to be some pretty rigid hurdles to have to deal with, compared to the flexibility of just recording straight to the computer. I could be way off; indeed michaelst is obviously making some sweet sounding stuff on it...But that might just be his talent at dealing with his equipment. I just personally feel like I might get frustrated dealing with moving files back and forth and whatnot.

Seems like it'd be an awesome tool for a mobile rig though...?

(But maybe today's version has a larger hard drive. I don't know.)

In the reading I was doing today, I found out that you can use any IDE drive up to 2 TB in size. So since the HD24's got two drive sleds, you could put 4 TB in that puppy. That would solve your concerns about space.