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cantthinkofname
Active member
thanks for taking the time to post that response to the spectral analysis, i'm still comparing. not sure about everything else, but i so far would not rule out the possiblity that bone characterics/composition could effect intonation on certain strings while not on others. it would be nice to see more indepth studies on this like you said, & it would also be nice to actually be able to try out different things myself but do not have what i need to do that. anyhow thanks for the response
muttley600
Banned
How would it do that?
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cantthinkofname
Active member
i read it somewhere last night, must not of been in the study i posted, i'll try to find it.
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ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
Feel free to do that and let me know what you find. I deal with the NEC2008 every day (literally - I design AC and DC power circuits in the US for a living) and I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing split phase power referred to as "symmetrical" anywhere. Perhaps you can cite an article number? I don't have my codebook with me, but I'll look it up tomorrow.
The voltages on a two phase system are indeed "balanced", but current and therefore power delivered by a leg is determined by the load impedance; balancing on a service is done by moving loads around. This may be a question of semantics.
By code in the US, the neutral conductor and ground are bonded at the service and connected to the grounding electrode, so your assertion that a grounded conductor "is only a nuetral [sic] when it is in a 3 wire split phase circuit" is incorrect.
Anyway, I believe that your electrician friend was mistaken. I don't deal with European power systems - yet - but take a look at this apps note: http://www.unipower-corp.com/pdf/App0827-11d.PDF
If you look about halfway through, it shows phasor diagrams of the US and European 3 phase standards. In the European standard, the voltage of any (single) phase to neutral is 240VAC, whereas in the US, any phase to neutral is 120VAC.
I am not an expert on European power distribution, but everything I have been able to find indicates that household power in the UK is single phase 240VAC.
muttley600
Banned
It can only effect intonation if it is in the wrong place, It matters not what it is made of.
muttley600
Banned
They are.
Three phase supplies are used in larger commercial premises and they are a pain for us guys that have to convert/or change out our machine motors when we switch from one to the other. I ain't doing that again.
Victory Pete
Banned
I dont think we should continue this off topic posting, But I am a Master electrician in RI, CT and Mass. Some of your answers are quite wrong. I deal with the 2008 NEC also, I have the large handbook in my office and one in my van. Look up symetrical power yourself. Also the grounded white wire in a 2 wire 120Vac is definately not a neutral. It is only a neutral if it is in a 3 wire circuit, because there its current is the difference between the 2 phases. Do you just like to argue?
VP
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ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
Of course; don't you?
In a single phase 120VAC circuit, the white or gray is called neutral by all the code I have read, and I've read a lot of it. Three wire? Well, OK, with the ground wire, but usually the ground is not considered to be part of the circuit. I am aware that current flows in the neutral in that case, but "grounded" and "neutral" are not mutually exclusive terms.
Did you look at those phasor diagrams? In Europe, the standard is 240VAC from any single phase to neutral.
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cantthinkofname
Active member
i think i must have been thinking of this:
"With computer analysis, deficiencies of natural materials
like bone becomes apparent. Due to the inherent "grain" in bone, (hard spots
and soft spots), balancing energy transfer, impedance matching, and harmonic content is hit or miss at best, and definitely not "tweakable" in material design.
Again, because of the grain, each string may vary in harmonic content and
sustain, which becomes even more evident with an under the saddle pickup."
and then i found this which basically carries the same concept and stresses similar benefits:
"What is flaxwood exactly?
Flaxwood is an innovative new tone material that is created by breaking the grain structure of natural wood and injection-molding it into shape together with an acoustically sensitive binding agent.
Technology
What are flaxwood's benefits compared to those of natural wood?
In so many words, acoustic consistency and uniformly flawless quality.
As it is rid of irregularities in composition such as the grain and knots found in traditional tonewoods, the acoustic response of flaxwood is such that it resonates with equal force in all directions, and gives an even dynamic response through a guitar's entire range.
Flaxwood is also completely unaffected by changes in humidity, making it a more reliable tone material in changing conditions.
Flaxwood is also an ecological alternative to wood species used in traditional instrument building that are slowly nearing extinction"
and isn't it true that better quality material provides more resistance to string wear? and that certain materials tend to develop deep grooves which are harmful? these leading to common sources of intonation problems?
Victory Pete
Banned
Of course; don't you?
In a single phase 120VAC circuit, the white or gray is called neutral by all the code I have read, and I've read a lot of it. Three wire? Well, OK, with the ground wire, but usually the ground is not considered to be part of the circuit. I am aware that current flows in the neutral in that case, but "grounded" and "neutral" are not mutually exclusive terms.
Did you look at those phasor diagrams? In Europe, the standard is 240VAC from any single phase to neutral.
When I say 3 wire circuit I am not counting the equipment ground. The 3 wire circuit has the 2 phases and a neutral. The neutral always carries less current because it is the difference of the 2 phases. If you had 20 amps in 1 phase conductor and 20 amps in the other phase conductor there would be 0 in the neutral, they cancel that is why it is called neutral. They cancel because they are 180 degrees out of phase. This is what you get in service entrance and feeder circuits. True neutrals can be undersized because of this principle. A 2 wire 120v circuit with a phase and a white always has the same current in each conductor, that is why it is called grounded conductor and not neutral.
VP
This is my last post in this thread, I realized we are hijacking it.
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muttley600
Banned
No. It isn't true.
You are mistaking intonation problems and it's causes with issues of transfer of vibrational energy that were originally being questioned by some. Please try and formulate your arguments consistent with the discussion or explain why you have deviated from it and are attempting to associate it with the cause of another issue.
Also it would help if you provided links to any articles opr information you quote.
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
So if a nut or bridge were made correctly of an unorthodox material such as styrofoam It wouldn't affect the instrument's tonality?
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Brian Oshman
New member
The zero current in the neutral only occurs when equal currents are present on all phases that are referencing the neutral. This only applies to single phase services. Three phase services are 120º out of phase of each other and will never show true cancellation on the neutral when the the phases reference the neutral.
Neutrals cannot be undersized in reference to any of the conductors in a single phase service and must be the same size to accommodate the full loading of only one of the phase conductors and neutral without the other phase conductor being loaded at all. The neutral will still carry current in all scenarios even though it will not be measurable in a balanced situation due to phase cancellation.
In three phase services the neutral will be over sized in reference to the phase conductors because there is no true 100% cancellation due to the 120º phase relation.
Neutral and ground are not the same thing and should never be considered as so. Bonding and grounding are not the same thing. The neutral is only bonded at the source or the original disconnect means. The neutral and ground are not bonded together beyond the main source to reduce the potential of multiple return paths to the source in a ground fault situation. Sub panels do not have the neutral and ground bonded together and must have two separate conductors and grounding electrode systems. Grounding electrode systems are not for lightning suppression as many think. It is to ensure that the earth, building, and equipment all remain at the same potential.
A neutral is always neutral. Do not confuse neutral and as a grounded current conductor. You are thinking of corner grounding which is being phased out and is really only found in 480 volt three phase industrial systems where one of the phases is grounded. There is no neutral in this type of system.
A two wire appliance without a ground is not a grounded conductor. It will either be polarized, floating, or double insulated but the conductor that typically connects to the neutral by means of a two prong keyed plug will not have one of those conductors grounded to the chassis because that would present a shock hazard in the event that someone used an adapter or filed off the key on the wider blade.
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Brian Oshman
New member
Most European systems are 220/380 volt 50 Hz. The service will be 220 volt to neutral and 380 volt phase to phase.
It is common to find three phase service in residential which is used to run water heaters, ranges, and all other high current devices in the home and the use of isolation transformers in bathrooms for razors and such so there is no direct coupling to the service.
I wish I had three phase in my house.
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muttley600
Banned
If the saddle functioned correctly it wouldn't effect the intonation no matter what it was made of. Intonation is a product of the string length, it's mass per unit length and its tension. Nothing more. If the saddle was made of diamonds or dust it matters not as long as it does that. All it has to do is provide a fixed point for the string.
If by "tonality" you mean timbre or tone then that has nothing to do with intonation and like catstinkofaname you are confusing two separate issues.
muttley600
Banned
Not in the UK as far as I am aware!!?? I have never seen three phase in residential properties over here. Maybe wrong. As I said it is common in industrial environments, I've had it in a few workshops myself.
Can't speak for the rest of Europe though.
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Brian Oshman
New member
I know in Germany it is common.
muttley600
Banned
That maybe I really don't know.
One thing you guys do need to understand though is that Europe is a big place with many countries. We are all different and do things differently. I know we were originally talking about the UK mains power and I would suggest you carefully qualify what you are discussing because there are no European standards for such things partly because of the historical infrastructure and partly because we don't want to agree on a lot of stuff.
It's simply incorrect to say Britain or Germany or France or Italy does it this way so the rest of Europe must as well.
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
No I'm not confused and I was not referring to "intonation". So now if you would be so kind as to answer my original question.