Tusq vs Fossilized Mammoth Ivory Saddles

[muttley600]

No I'm not confused and I was not referring to "intonation". So now if you would be so kind as to answer my original question.

OK, I was confused because I said this

It can only effect intonation if it is in the wrong place, It matters not what it is made of.

then you quoted it and asked this

So if a nut or bridge were made correctly of an unorthodox material such as styrofoam It wouldn't affect the instrument's tonality?

forgive me if I took that to mean you were talking about how it may effect intonation. Now if you mean can saddle material effect "tonality" in terms of timbre or tone then yes it can and does.

Does that answer your question?

 

[ocnor]

Does that answer your question?

Yes thanks.

 

[muttley600]

Yes thanks.

No problem.


Basically anything that effects how the string energy reaches the soundboard can and does effect the final sound of the instrument on acoustic instruments. The degree of influence varies depending on many things and whether that change is for the better or worse is largely subjective.

Saddle material does effect that. Just as important is to have a good fit and well shaped saddle as that effects the efficiency of the energy transfer and how much is retained in the string.

 

[Brian Oshman]

That maybe I really don't know.

One thing you guys do need to understand though is that Europe is a big place with many countries. We are all different and do things differently. I know we were originally talking about the UK mains power and I would suggest you carefully qualify what you are discussing because there are no European standards for such things partly because of the historical infrastructure and partly because we don't want to agree on a lot of stuff.

It's simply incorrect to say Britain or Germany or France or Italy does it this way so the rest of Europe must as well.

The voltage and frequency for Europe is the same throughout, the outlet configurations will vary.

 

[Victory Pete]

OK, I was confused because I said this



then you quoted it and asked this



forgive me if I took that to mean you were talking about how it may effect intonation. Now if you mean can saddle material effect "tonality" in terms of timbre or tone then yes it can and does.

Does that answer your question?

With all due respect, That is what I have said many times in a few different threads. You always said it went against all known physics. What gives?
VP

 

[muttley600]

The voltage and frequency for Europe is the same throughout, the outlet configurations will vary.

230V +/-10% 207-253V, and the outlet configurations is what you lot were talking about. Yes?

I have to say I don't care really and don't have a cock in the pit on this one but I do know that our ranges and water heaters and other residential electrical fittings that draw a lot are not on three phase. They are required to be connected to a radial single phase 2mm twin and earth with the appropriate breaker at the board. They may well do it differently in Germany I really don't care..

 

[muttley600]

With all due respect, That is what I have said many times in a few different threads. You always said it went against all known physics. What gives?
VP

No, that is what I have always said recently and have always said. You have said and continually restated and argued the toss that the NUT effects the tone of a instrument regardless of whether the string is fretted or not. That is bollox.

 

[Victory Pete]

No, that is what I have always said recently and have always said. You have said and continually restated and argued the toss that the NUT effects the tone of a instrument regardless of whether the string is fretted or not. That is bollox.

I said saddle, nut, and bridge pins improved my guitars sound. I said something to the effect that I might notice a difference with fretted notes. It was never an issue I ever repeated or argued about. You do twist around information, you even changed my quotes. Shame on you, you dont play fair.
VP

 

[muttley600]

I said saddle, nut, and bridge pins improved my guitars sound. I said something to the effect that I might notice a difference with fretted notes. It was never an issue I ever repeated or argued about. You do twist around information, you even changed my quotes. Shame on you, you dont play fair.
VP

Just a few posts of yours taken in sequence from a recent thread that kicked all this off this time. I stopped at around page three and the thread went on for a good many further pages.

I replaced the factory Corion nut on my Martin HD-28 with unbleached cowbone and was instantly pleased by a noticable difference. I believe it is also audible with fretted notes. I also decided not to use glue on it, maybe it distrupts the bone to wood contact. I had noticed on my Cordoba Classical guitar that they dont glue them either. My HD-28 has never sounded better. Martin now uses bone for both nuts and saddles on there standard series guitars. I also changed the factory Micarta saddle to bone. All my Gibson electrics have factory Corion nuts, I have no intention of changing them. I feel they sound just fine, also I think a nut on an electric is not as critical for tone as on an acoustic. Although a cheap plastic nut probably would affect tone and sustain.
VP

I am convinced I heard a big improvement. One gets use to the sound of his own guitar and can tell when there is a change. I still have the Corion nut and because I didnt use glue I can switch them back and forth and compare, I can even record the results.
VP

Thanks for your response, I cant help but think that even though the string doesnt vibrate up to the nut when using the frets, the string is still under tension and wraps around the bone nut. Maybe some physics would allow a small difference in sound.
VP

Martin just switched from corion to bone a couple of years ago. I would go to GC and try an HD-28 and was upset that it sounded better than mine. Little did I know they had just switched to bone. I almost traded my own HD-28 in for the new one. Anyways I ended changing my nut from corion to bone and now my guitar sounds as good as the new ones. It is as simple as that.
I can easily compare the original corion nut and the bone nut because I didnt glue it. It would take about 10 minutes to swap and tune up.
VP

Just for shits and giggles, I also have changed my saddle to bone. Also a great improvement over the factory Micarta. Although if there is a piezo pickup under the saddle Micarta may provide a more even string balance. I also have changed the factory plastic bridge pins on my Martin HD-28 and D12-28 to ebony. Another great improvement. This can easily be proved by simply putting 2 high E strings on and having each kind of pin in each string. With all these changes my acoustics sound absolutely amazing, especially the 12 string. I feel the 12 string is super loud because of the extra compression on the saddle due to the extra tension of 12 strings, The same for the nut and also the increased mass of the headstock and machine heads.
VP

We then moved on to this drivel which frankly is what opened you up to the constant ridicule that followed this weekend.

I agree. It has also occurred to me that the greater saddle offset for bigger strings is also due to the fact there is a "theoretical dead point" where the string passes over the saddle. the actual vibrating part of the string doesnt start right at the saddle. The bigger the string the longer this "dead spot" is, requiring more compensation. It is also interesting to note that the angle of the saddles stays consistent until you get to the plain strings, here the saddle is further away from the neck. I believe this is because the plain steel strings are stiffer than its wound counterparts and has longer "dead spots" so it has to be compensated more. It is also interesting to see the remaining saddles follow roughly the same angle. I can usually get an idea if a guitar is misintonated by looking at this stepped angle pattern. Of course you really have to listen and use a tuner.
VP

You can have it your way VP but to the rest of us that looks suspiciously like the opposite to...

It was never an issue I ever repeated or argued about.

 

[cantthinkofname]

muttley, i will get back to you more in depth but i want to present my argument more clearly. for now i would like to ask you, do you feel that tones are influenced by intonation/and vice versa? thx

 

[Victory Pete]

T

Just a few posts of yours taken in sequence from a recent thread that kicked all this off this time. I stopped at around page three and the thread went on for a good many further pages.











We then moved on to this drivel which frankly is what opened you up to the constant ridicule that followed this weekend.


You can have it your way VP but to the rest of us that looks suspiciously like the opposite to...

There were only 2 instances I mentioned it might affect the sound. And to be clear, we are talking just about a nut change being heard on fretted notes. Otherwise Of course I repeated That I noticed a change with the nut, saddle, and pins.
Vp

 

[muttley600]

T

There were only 2 instances I mentioned it might affect the sound. And to be clear, we are talking just about a nut change being heard on fretted notes. Otherwise Of course I repeated That I noticed a change with the nut, saddle, and pins.
Vp

Whatever....

 

[muttley600]

muttley, i will get back to you more in depth but i want to present my argument more clearly. for now i would like to ask you, do you feel that tones are influenced by intonation/and vice versa? thx

you get back to me when you like but I can save you some time by repeating, tone and intonation are two completely different things.

 

[cantthinkofname]

you get back to me when you like but I can save you some time by repeating, tone and intonation are two completely different things.

according to a knowledgeable guy from the guild of american luthiers, "The 1997 Healdsburg Guitar Maker's Festival included a seminar on intonation, a complex topic which always seems to generate confusion and spirited debate"


i will, but don't think i haven't taken what you've said into consideration

 

[muttley600]

according to a knowledgeable guy from the guild of american luthiers, "The 1997 Healdsburg Guitar Maker's Festival included a seminar on intonation, a complex topic which always seems to generate confusion and spirited debate"


i will, but don't think i haven't taken what you've said into consideration

Yes it was good, I was there and again in 99 and 01. Sadly I haven't had time to get out there since but I hope to again sometime. A lovely part of the world.

Again just to help you out in your quest for knowledge despite the obvious fact that you dislike me greatly, Intonation and timbre are two different things.

Intonation has to do with the manner in which tuning of the guitar is achieved and how a specific temperament can be arrived at. See my temperament primer stickied above for that. Timbre has to do with the actual sound the instrument produces and how the energy of the string is released into the soundboard and the way the materials and other things translate the string vibration into sound waves. Mostly focusing on the higher partials of the note.

 

[ggunn]

With all due respect, That is what I have said many times in a few different threads. You always said it went against all known physics. What gives?
VP

He was talking about nuts then and bridges now.

 

[ggunn]

When I say 3 wire circuit I am not counting the equipment ground. The 3 wire circuit has the 2 phases and a neutral. The neutral always carries less current because it is the difference of the 2 phases. If you had 20 amps in 1 phase conductor and 20 amps in the other phase conductor there would be 0 in the neutral, they cancel that is why it is called neutral. They cancel because they are 180 degrees out of phase. This is what you get in service entrance and feeder circuits. True neutrals can be undersized because of this principle. A 2 wire 120v circuit with a phase and a white always has the same current in each conductor, that is why it is called grounded conductor and not neutral.
VP

This is my last post in this thread, I realized we are hijacking it.

I apologize for my role in the hijack, but I did some research today that yielded some interesting (to me, anyway) results. The code defines neutral as a conductor connected to the midpoint of a split phase system. It's interesting that they use the word "system" and not "circuit"; one could argue that a house is a system and in a two wire 120VAC branch circuit in a house the gray or white current carrying conductor is still connected to the midpoint of the 240VAC split phase system and therefore is still a neutral. However, the bit about the current in the "neutral" conductor is a point well taken, and here's an article by a respected writer who agrees with your interpretation: http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8840

I find no mention of "symmetrical" power in the NEC2008 in reference to 240VAC split phase power or anything else. It may be a common reference colloquially but it doesn't appear to be part of the code.

240VAC European power is single phase, not split phase. One hot, one "neutral".

There. I'm done. Sorry for the diversion. Please don't tell my boss that this is what I was doing some of the time I had my nose in the codebook today.

 

[ggunn]

A neutral is always neutral. Do not confuse neutral and as a grounded current conductor. You are thinking of corner grounding which is being phased out and is really only found in 480 volt three phase industrial systems where one of the phases is grounded. There is no neutral in this type of system.

I am dealing with one of those services (480VAC corner grounded delta) at the moment; it apparently is common in agricultural applications, though I had never encountered it before.

 

[cantthinkofname]

Yes it was good, I was there and again in 99 and 01. Sadly I haven't had time to get out there since but I hope to again sometime. A lovely part of the world.

Again just to help you out in your quest for knowledge despite the obvious fact that you dislike me greatly, Intonation and timbre are two different things.

Intonation has to do with the manner in which tuning of the guitar is achieved and how a specific temperament can be arrived at. See my temperament primer stickied above for that. Timbre has to do with the actual sound the instrument produces and how the energy of the string is released into the soundboard and the way the materials and other things translate the string vibration into sound waves. Mostly focusing on the higher partials of the note.

it sounds like you would've had a great time, it would be neat to go to one of those.

I understood that intonation, timber/tone, are often recognized as different but somehow it seems to me that they couldn't be entirely disconnected or operate independently from eachother either. and some of what i've found has seemed to support that. and some say the nut does effect intonation. also alot of what related to the nut and tone fell under the list of things i've read that effect intonation.

i have the flu today, but still going over what you've said, and will check out your temperment sticky when possible, thx

pongchow!

 

[muttley600]

it sounds like you would've had a great time, it would be neat to go to one of those.

I understood that intonation, timber/tone, are often recognized as different but somehow it seems to me that they couldn't be entirely disconnected or operate independently from eachother either. and some of what i've found has seemed to support that. and some say the nut does effect intonation. also alot of what related to the nut and tone fell under the list of things i've read that effect intonation.

i have the flu today, but still going over what you've said, and will check out your temperment sticky when possible, thx

pongchow!

The way a nut is cut and can and does influence the intonation of the instrument. That has never been in dispute. For example as I have said many times, a well cut and fitted nut is essential to guarantee good intonation.

To expand if the nut slots are too high then you introduce tuning anomalies close to the nut as you introduce more tension as you push down on the string. You need to minimise them by getting the slots cut so the string will just clear the first fret without fouling or buzzing in the first fret. Some makers and setup guys will in some situations add compensation to the nut or in extreme cases even reduce the length of the fingerboard (the distance from the nut to the first fret) to try and accommodate these problems. That was referred to in the exchange between light and myself earlier in the thread.

Doing that or not doing that will not effect the timbre of the note. I say again that intonation has to do with producing the correct frequency/pitch, or as close to correct as physics will allow. It is distinct from timbre which is dependant on the materials themselves.

The phenomena that VP was describing of theoretical "dead spots" is nonsense. He has obviously come across what musical acousticians call finite bending stiffness and it does exist. At the time I wasn't going to go there because it would have turned the debate into even more of a train wreck. Basically what that says is that the stiffness of the material effects the ability of the string to start into motion at and near the fixed point. That is one reason why wound strings are preferred as it reduces the effective stiffness of the string in relation to it's mass for larger thicker strings. It has nothing to do with intonation or saddle compensation as he suggested and cannot be overcome by moving the saddle. It is a product of the material that the string is made of. Moving the saddle to compensate for it would throw out the intonation on all but the very higher notes. The string length is still what it is regardless. All that is happening is that the material stiffness, which is a constant is having an influence on the sounding pitch as the string length shortens. Finite bending stiffness in strings is still a very complex and controversial area of study in musical acoustics but it is well understood. VP was just plain wrong but I don't doubt that on his return he will seize on it.

I'd be very interested in a credible article or research paper that makes any claim that intonation and timbre are in some way related because it would be the first one I've seen in thirty years of reading up and researching this stuff and I cannot envisage a situation in which they can be linked or dependant in any way.

Good luck