mic the snare

[stupidfatnugly]

OK I just spent an hour an a half searching this site for this info and I have a few q's (I'm just recording the snare by itself):

1) my mbox has two inputs so I can mic the top, on one track and the bottom on the other. However, I read that the warmth, clarity and crack comes from overheads. So, if I can only use two mics at a time, should I do a top/bottom combo, a close top mic/overhead or an overhead and a bottom?

2)I also read that having mics different distances from the snare will cause phase issues. What does this mean for the top snare mic which is 2-3" from the snare and the overhead(s) which are 40" from the snare?

3) And in protools there should be some kind of "invert" or "phase reverse" button I can push. Is that on the audio track? so I arm the record button; find that invert button; push it and record?

4) is there another way I can use 3 mics with the mbox? some kind of splitter?

5) if I have a 57 for the top should I use a 57 for the bottom? is there a better combo for top and bottom? (I already have a 57 so I'll definetely use that for one)

 

[stupidfatnugly]

nobody? would this do better in a different section?

I found the "invert" for protools it's in the "Audiosuite" but I'd have to record the track and then invert that track, irreversibly, afterward

 

[greyharmonix]

shouldn't this be in the protools section? maybe that's why your not getting any replies.

as far as the phasing issue of OH and close micing. it's not apparent because close micing get more of the ring and sizzle of snare while the crack is the OH's. you mix the two to taste.

 

[RAMI]

nobody? would this do better in a different section?

I found the "invert" for protools it's in the "Audiosuite" but I'd have to record the track and then invert that track, irreversibly, afterward

You usually DO need to flip the phase (or polarity...whatever) on the snare mic, and it makes a big difference. Nothing wrong with doing it after recording.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

anybody have answers to any of my other questions(above)?

 

[jmorris]

This section is fine for this question. Ok, first.What are you trying to achieve? Why 2 mics. Not that its wrong. Many do use two, many do not. You will have to experiment .It will depent on what your snare, room sounds like. For starters I would mic the snare from the top,just over the rim about 1-1.5 inches and pointed to where the stick hits.Try that and listen to it. If you want more snare rattle, a second sm57 under is ok.I, when using 2 snare mics, place the bottom sm57 at something like a 45 degree angle pointing at the snare spring( or whatever you call it!) about 2-4 inches away. Compression is nice for a snare also,tends to give it a bit of punch. If you dont like the bottom snare mic, try,if you have one, a condensor over snare. Hold stick in hand sitting in front of snare then point it straight up,at the end of your stick is where to plae mic to start,then play around with placement. Do you eq the snare?
Jim

 

[starbuck26]

OK I just spent an hour an a half searching this site for this info and I have a few q's (I'm just recording the snare by itself):

1) my mbox has two inputs so I can mic the top, on one track and the bottom on the other. However, I read that the warmth, clarity and crack comes from overheads. So, if I can only use two mics at a time, should I do a top/bottom combo, a close top mic/overhead or an overhead and a bottom?

2)I also read that having mics different distances from the snare will cause phase issues. What does this mean for the top snare mic which is 2-3" from the snare and the overhead(s) which are 40" from the snare?

3) And in protools there should be some kind of "invert" or "phase reverse" button I can push. Is that on the audio track? so I arm the record button; find that invert button; push it and record?

4) is there another way I can use 3 mics with the mbox? some kind of splitter?

5) if I have a 57 for the top should I use a 57 for the bottom? is there a better combo for top and bottom? (I already have a 57 so I'll definetely use that for one)

I've never recorded a snare on its own. In general, though, I think you're confusing two different techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ. This is the recorderman method of recording drums with only two overheads. It works very well. You might get a good sound out of a single snare doing a simple room mic setup with a stereo pair in XY (you can google that).

As far as close micing a snare, you usually mic the top of the snare with something like a 57 and the bottom of the snare the same. You now have to mics pointed pretty much directly at one another, and you flip the phase of the bottom mic. If you're using an overhead and a bottom mic—never thought of this—you should be fine leaving it the way it is.

If the two mics you have at your disposal are both dynamic mics, you're probably better off close micing the top and bottom, reversing the bottom, and adding reverb in the mix to taste. If you have a pair of omni or small diaphragm condensers, then try the room mics first.

You're not going to be able to flip the phase on input through the m-box (unless I'm mistaken) but you can do it in protools. I've not used protools in a long time, but if you look in the help file you can search 'phase' and you will find out how to invert it. If you're unsure if you should flip it or not, flip it. If it sounds better keep it. If not, flip it back. Don't let the 'rules' get in the way of your ears.

If you want to use 3 mics with the M-Box, you'll have to use a mixer first, and run the L-R outputs to the M-Box and then to the computer. No splitter cables will work.

But, in general I will say two things. Getting the snare to sound like you want it to in the room is 80% of the battle. A snare without crack and too much BOING ain't going to sound like all CRACK and no boing no matter how clever your mic technique gets. Second, don't be afraid to experiment. Move stuff around. See what you get. Record a few tracks with different placements and then A/B them in the DAW. Then start working with your parametrics and hone what you think is best.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

As far as close micing a snare, you usually mic the top of the snare with something like a 57 and the bottom of the snare the same.

so I should purchase another 57 and definitely not another dynamic from another company?

If the two mics you have at your disposal are both dynamic mics, you're probably better off close micing the top and bottom, reversing the bottom, and adding reverb in the mix to taste. If you have a pair of omni or small diaphragm condensers, then try the room mics first.

I have a baby bottle condenser and the 57 but I was told to be careful/not use, the condenser for drums b/c I could ruin it. I use it for vocals primarily and don't want to get crappy vocals because I put wear and tear on it with the drums.

But, in general I will say two things. Getting the snare to sound like you want it to in the room is 80% of the battle. A snare without crack and too much BOING ain't going to sound like all CRACK and no boing no matter how clever your mic technique gets. Second, don't be afraid to experiment. Move stuff around. See what you get. Record a few tracks with different placements and then A/B them in the DAW. Then start working with your parametrics and hone what you think is best.

I've spent quite a long time experimenting so far with nothing to show but a dull muted sound. I'll try your suggestions though thanks

 

[RAMI]

I've spent quite a long time experimenting so far with nothing to show but a dull muted sound.

Before you go anywhere near the drum with a mic, you should get it to sound aw awesome as possible acoustically. mics can only re-produce what you give them, so don't depend on them to make anything sound better than it does.

 

[starbuck26]

Before you go anywhere near the drum with a mic, you should get it to sound aw awesome as possible acoustically. mics can only re-produce what you give them, so don't depend on them to make anything sound better than it does.

Pay attention to this advice. This man is speaking the truth.

I have a baby bottle condenser and the 57 but I was told to be careful/not use, the condenser for drums b/c I could ruin it. I use it for vocals primarily and don't want to get crappy vocals because I put wear and tear on it with the drums.

Who told you this? The only mics I'm aware of that you need to be careful with are ribbon mics.

 

[Dogbreath]

Yeah...I'd think the only thing to be careful of is the SPL's the mic can handle.


Try the Recorderman or the Glyn Johns method.
Experiment with a bit of both.

You'll get it dude. No worries.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

Who told you this? The only mics I'm aware of that you need to be careful with are ribbon mics.

someone on this forum

the baby bottle is not a ribbon mic then?

 

[stupidfatnugly]

Yeah...I'd think the only thing to be careful of is the SPL's the mic can handle.

:

SPL's? what's that?

 

[JuliánFernández]

SPL's? what's that?

Sound Pressure Level...

Condensers usually have less SPL´s support than Dynamics... If you expose some Ribbons or Condensers to high amount of sound pressure, you can damage them...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Condensers usually have less SPL´s support than Dynamics...

While there are some condensers that have a hard time with higher volumes, I'd guard against making this kind of statement. There are plenty of condensers out there that can handle 130dB SPL or better - which is more than most of our ears can handle.

I think one of the main reasons that condensers have the reputation they have for not handling loud volumes is because of their relative unsuitability for live situations - they can't be left in the rain or run over by a pickup truck or simply handle the roughness of travel the way many dynamics can.

It simply comes down to reading the spec to determine what any given mic can or cannot handle. But blanket statements based upon mic diaphragm design can often be misleading.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

4) is there another way I can use 3 mics with the mbox? some kind of splitter?

If you want to use more than 2 mics with your interface, you'll need to use some sort of a mixer. Then you can record the entire drumkit (I know you're just recording the snare... just giving you the possibilities). Something with 8 channels should be enough for this purpose. Then you'd create your mix on the mixer and record the stereo outputs from the mixer into your DAW.

The only caveat is, you'll need to make sure that you get the mix right on the mixer as you won't be able to adjust the individual mics once the stereo stem is recorded.

 

[drossfile]

OK I just spent an hour an a half searching this site for this info and I have a few q's (I'm just recording the snare by itself):

1) my mbox has two inputs so I can mic the top, on one track and the bottom on the other. However, I read that the warmth, clarity and crack comes from overheads. So, if I can only use two mics at a time, should I do a top/bottom combo, a close top mic/overhead or an overhead and a bottom?

i find that the crack comes from the close mic, but plenty would disagree. warmth, punch, and space come from the OHs, imo. or maybe i'm just splitting hairs.

i'm not sure why you're tracking a snare only, but if that is indeed the case--and ONLY in this instance--i would probably put your 57 in a hybrid OH/close position. say, angled at the outer edge of the head like a close mic, but about 18-24" up from the drum and pointing at the center like an OH. then i'd put the baby bottle under the snare to get more sizzle (phase inverted pre/post tracking, doesn't matter). typically a condenser is used on the snare bottom for the very purpose i just stated--to get sizzle off of the snare wires. of course, this is just where i'd start. it could sound like crap, and i'd just start tweaking the positions or starting all over entirely. see how i can offer advice while covering my ass?

if you're trying to capture the whole kit w/ only 2 mics, on the other hand, i'd vote OHs almost every time (the only rare exception would be a pair of room mics, depending on the application/desired sound).

and just to answer 2 of your later questions:

1. the baby bottle is a condenser, not a ribbon.

2. i'm guessing that you heard condensers are better off not used on drums not only because of spl levels, but also the risk of hitting the mic w/ a drum stick. for OH and snare bottom purposes, this shouldn't be a problem.

2)I also read that having mics different distances from the snare will cause phase issues. What does this mean for the top snare mic which is 2-3" from the snare and the overhead(s) which are 40" from the snare?

follow the 3 to 1 rule: as long as one mic is 3x the distance away from the sound source as another mic, phase shouldn't be a problem. i never flip the phase on my close mic, and my OHs are already phase-aligned with the snare via equidistance. but it's a rule of thumb, so take it as that. ultimately let your ears decide which sounds better.

as a bonus answer, when i said @ Q#1 to invert the bottom snare mic, i'm only saying that as a default. with the 3:1 rule in mind, it may not be necessary, or it may be overkill. phase issues, or comb filtering, can occur at varying degrees, not just 100% out of phase. this is where time-alignment comes in, where instead of reversing the 2nd mic 180 degrees, you simply nudge one track up or back in time to align with the other. your waveforms will tell you whether you need to invert or time-align.

3) And in protools there should be some kind of "invert" or "phase reverse" button I can push. Is that on the audio track? so I arm the record button; find that invert button; push it and record?

i know nothing about protools, but i can't imagine that you can't invert it back and forth with impunity in the software after tracking. that will allow you to a/b the different sounds and decide which is better.

4) is there another way I can use 3 mics with the mbox? some kind of splitter?

someone already mentioned using a mixer--that's your only option, afaik. you absolutely CANNOT split mic signals and have them operate properly.

5) if I have a 57 for the top should I use a 57 for the bottom? is there a better combo for top and bottom? (I already have a 57 so I'll definetely use that for one)

no. see answer to Q#1.

good luck!

 

[mixsit]

..follow the 3 to 1 rule: as long as one mic is 3x the distance away from the sound source as another mic, phase shouldn't be a problem.

Not.

Doesn't even relate. Nada.

 

[RAMI]

follow the 3 to 1 rule: as long as one mic is 3x the distance away from the sound source as another mic, phase shouldn't be a problem.

Just a little correction, Dross. The 3:1 rule applies to micing 2 sources, not the same source. For example, if you're close-micing 2 toms, each mic should be 3 times the distance away from the OTHER tom. It doesn't apply here to micing one source.

 

[drossfile]

oh snap.

to err is...